What Is This Lisbon Treaty All About?

IRockUrSocks

Personally, I've read a few leaflets on it but they are just as misleading as they were a few months ago. Can anybody really make it clear to us what the pro's and con's are? Fianna Fail sure are having a hard time doing that...

shenanigans1982

Proving democracy is a sham.

tolosenc

Cons: Few to none, dependant on your viewpoint.

Pros: *paging Sam Vimes to After Hours*

ChocolateSauce

It is about how the EU is to be organised, in short.

ChocolateSauce

shenanigans1982 wrote: »

Proving democracy is a sham.

A good thing we get to vote on that then!

Agent J

"If at first you don't succeed...."

TheZohanS

It's about giving people the chance to vote yes to the Treaty, it's very democratic.

And if we vote no we'll get another chance to vote yes again.

Choice is good and it's great that we get to vote the second time, we obviously didn't know the full story the first time - we messed up by voting no.

Ostrom

I like to leave threads like this for a day or two, come back when they are naturally at 20+ pages, then read the first and last posts.

Its always fun

Dave!

It's basically a referendum on conscription, abortion, aaaaaaaannnnddd....... let's say slavery, all rolled into one. I'd vote no if I were you.

shenanigans1982

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

A good thing we get to vote on that then!

And I'm sure we will get to vote again if the government don't get the result they want.

Senna

If you vote yes there will be forced abortions for all, any kids that do slip through will be conscripted into the army and forced to watch "Platoon" because its more realistic than the Irish army.

For god sakes VOTE UNDECIDED!!!!!

TheZohanS

Dave! wrote: »

It's basically a referendum on conscription, abortion, aaaaaaaannnnddd....... let's say slavery, all rolled into one. I'd vote no if I were you.

Stop scaremongering.

I heard that somewhere on teh internet there are 10 good reasons to vote yes.

That's good enough for me.

utick

why everytime abortion and conscription is mentioned on these lisbon treaty it always seems to be the yes side bringing them up

Senna

utick wrote: »

why everytime abortion and conscription is mentioned on these lisbon treaty it always seems to be the yes side bringing them up

Because when most people were asked why they voted no the first time, they said one of the two.

Run_to_da_hills

Not surprising at all that Sinn Fein has stuck to its policy of last year on a NO vote.

Gerry Adams correctly quoted “The people said no. Exactly the same treaty is being presented once again.” he also stated that it was a "bad treaty" and put it to the people not to be swayed by propaganda and the current economic climate.

With Libertas gone Sinn Féin now looks set to be the only remaining well financed voice in the anti-Lisbon camp.

Last year, the party’s key arguments against the treaty were claims it would end Ireland’s automatic right to a commissioner, it would erode neutrality and undermine workers’ rights

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0810/breaking1.htm

Purple Gorilla

Pro's:
Gives more power to the European Parliament which means all those crying out about Lisbon being Anti-democratic are pretty much wrong. The European Parliament is the part of the EU that you directly elect so they have more accountability. It also just generally increases the amount of democracy in the EU by making things more open.

New Qualified Majority Voting is more balanced towards smaller states like Ireland so the bigger states like Germany and France can't just pass legislation they want.

Unified Energy Policy so instead of 27 different small countries trying to negotiate with Russia for gas, oil etc. we will have the EU negotiating as one. This means we'll have a much better voice on the world stage so we won't see the fiasco that happened last christmas with Russia cutting off gas to Europe.

Cons:
We will transfer more areas where we rule, to the EU for Qualified Majority Voting. It doesn't mean we won't have a say, it just means that all the countries in the EU will vote on the legislation and the majority wins.

That's pretty much it as far as I can see... I'm too lazy to list anymore pros/cons

cherryghost

Vote No?

IRockUrSocks

So judgment day is not upon us if we vote yes. It seems Sinn Fein understands the concept of giving our liberties and voice away when we have fought for one for 800 years is a little bit on the idiocy side of things.

Will a yes vote mean one E.U superstate military etc?

As far as the Catholic church's take on things, I'm not for their point of view. Yes, we were reared to believe abortion is wrong but why on earth should we live our lives by ancient teachings?

Darlughda

I really hate contemporary politics. Its just all too silly.

For me sovereignty means the power to tell young fellas to go over the top.
Personally, I refuse to authorise that call.:D:D:D:D

Purple Gorilla

It won't mean one E.U Superstate anything. The German Constitutional Court spent months reviewing the Lisbon Treaty and basically said that this could be the last Treaty of the EU of it's kind. It said that there are certain areas which must remain in the power of sovereign states and it basically ruled out any EU Superstate.

And yes, military was one of the areas which it said must remain with each soveriegn state. There can be no EU Military.

Hola_Bola

Purple Gorilla wrote: »

It won't mean one E.U Superstate anything. The German Constitutional Court spent months reviewing the Lisbon Treaty and basically said that this could be the last Treaty of the EU of it's kind. It said that there are certain areas which must remain in the power of sovereign states and it basically ruled out any EU Superstate.

And yes, military was one of the areas which it said must remain with each soveriegn state. There can be no EU Military.

thats a pity. i was looking forward to a powerful military that could challenge the united states

IRockUrSocks

Purple Gorilla wrote: »

It won't mean one E.U Superstate anything. The German Constitutional Court spent months reviewing the Lisbon Treaty and basically said that this could be the last Treaty of the EU of it's kind. It said that there are certain areas which must remain in the power of sovereign states and it basically ruled out any EU Superstate.

And yes, military was one of the areas which it said must remain with each soveriegn state. There can be no EU Military.

That sounds reasonable.

Dankoozy

The single-state Europe followed by the NWO and the eventual creation of the Matrix

Dankoozy

Hola_Bola wrote: »

thats a pity. i was looking forward to a powerful military that could challenge the united states

thats China's military

and the yanks have enough challenges of their own..

TheZohanS

IRockUrSocks wrote: »

That sounds reasonable.

It sure does.

You can trust the Germans, top blokes.

Purple Gorilla

TBH, The German Constitutional Court ruling was so positive because it showed that the EU can't and won't just be expanding into a Federal State without objections. Germany, the EU's biggest and most prominent state, showed that it can't go further than a Union of Soveriegn countries without the consent of the people.

A Federal Europe would nullify German Basic Law and to do that it requires a referendum. I'm also sure that it's similar among many other EU states. Germany, and now Ireland, have gone as far as to pass (well, will pass) new legislation that will give our parliament and the German Parliament more foresight on EU issues.

bleg

Abortions for some ... I for one welcome our new...

Argh!

Darlughda

I know I know, I should not be in the politics forum...

anyway, remember Neville Chamberlain's 'Peace in our Time'.

Maybe I inhabit a different life/space continum from you lot, but this Lisbon Treaty business is BAD NEWS.

Look, we are in a mess in this country the way we are. germany and the other euro characters are not interested in saving us, no matter how much we say we are sorry, are guilty for our sins, and promise to vote the right way next time.like the bold teenagers of Europe.

No male baby I cuddle in my arms today is ever going to be forced to fight in organised murder if I can help it. That is why I am voting NO to Lisbon.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Do you people want a united europe? Would you welcome the idea of Europe being a super power? I think we need the EU now more than ever. Maybe if we vote yes, the tossers that we have in power might be a thing of the past? Maybe the country will be run right? Maybe the little guy working his ass off just to live with be given more respect?

I think this is the way forward. I think it's best for our country to vote yes... :eek:

TheZohanS

Leilani Happy Moon wrote: »

I think this is the way forward. I think it's best for our country to vote yes... :eek:

Yes, plus only Sinn Fein suporters and people who are ignorant of the facts vote No.

Purple Gorilla

Darlughda wrote: »

I know I know, I should not be in the politics forum...

anyway, remember Neville Chamberlain's 'Peace in our Time'.

Maybe I inhabit a different life/space continum from you lot, but this Lisbon Treaty business is BAD NEWS.

Look, we are in a mess in this country the way we are. germany and the other euro characters are not interested in saving us, no matter how much we say we are sorry, are guilty for our sins, and promise to vote the right way next time.like the bold teenagers of Europe.

No male baby I cuddle in my arms today is ever going to be forced to fight in organised murder if I can help it. That is why I am voting NO to Lisbon.

What? What are you talking about?

You really think that Ostricising Ireland from the rest of the EU will make our problems any better? You really need to listen to some of the heads of the multi-nationals there. They said that they will be watching this referendum closely and that a no vote could hamper future FDI from the states

Schism

Does the government really think that they'll get a yes vote this time. I think the word fiasco fits in nicely here.

Purple Gorilla

Schism wrote: »

Does the government really think that they'll get a yes vote this time. I think the word fiasco fits in nicely here.

Ok well what about the fact that Labour and Fine Gael also support the Lisbon Treaty?

TheZohanS

Schism wrote: »

Does the government really think that they'll get a yes vote this time. I think the word fiasco fits in nicely here.

We should take the governments advice on this one, they need our support.

The last thing we want to do is make them look foolish.

PrivateEye

You can have it in any colour you want, as long as its black.

Does the government really think that they'll get a yes vote this time.

They will, they seem to have somehow convinced people a Yes vote will play some part in fixing the economy, which obviously is just as much of a lie as this Army of European (Conscripted) Gays and Abortionists we kept hearing about. Both sides produced some crackers last time, but I'm still on the No side.

Purple Gorilla

PrivateEye wrote: »

You can have it in any colour you want, as long as its black.




They will, they seem to have somehow convinced people a Yes vote will play some part in fixing the economy, which obviously is just as much of a lie as this Army of European (Conscripted) Gays and Abortionists we kept hearing about. Both sides produced some crackers last time, but I'm still on the No side.

It won't hurt our economy by voting no, but it definitely won't make it any better. You need to listen to the heads of the multi-nationals here.
"While respecting views of the voters in Ireland, I think that the "no” vote has sent a strongly negative signal of the intent not only to our European counterparts but also to the many multinational companies who locate in Ireland because of the access our location and our participation in EU affairs provides, to Europe’s 460 million consumers." - Paul Rellis, Microsoft

Or maybe Jim O'Hara from Intel-
“A Yes vote is a signal of Ireland’s intention of being at the heart of Europe and a No vote can be interpreted that we want to go it alone – a decision that will be taken into account by any business considering investing in Ireland. I will be advocating a Yes vote.”

Darlughda

Yo big crazy purple gorilla and others

All I keep reading from my crazy history books is how the same shyte happens over and over again. Remember them tales of how we were the envy of Europe because we stayed out of the Empire mayhem running riot across the mainland then?

No?

Let me remind you, golden age of saints and scholars, artwork, development of spirituality and lots of good things.

Ok, some mad colonizers came along in the 4-5th century ad and imposed a system of centralized religion (oh the bells!) and writing and rewriting of our history. But hey ho. such is the way of history.

IRockUrSocks

Very good educated replies.

I thought the E.U's Lisbon Treaty would set a new agenda in the making of the Superstate. Surely, it's just a matter of time now anyway. Perhaps Ireland's refusal to vote "yes" last year has put us in a tighter spot given the current economic climate?

I don't think our relationship with the continent could get any worse if we voted "yes" at this stage, only help our future aspirations. I re-call watching Brian Cowen give us his opinion on the new write-up. He spoke of his "critical" involvement in pushing benefits for Ireland. Talk of a new Commissioner to oversee our issues and our in-puts being taken into consideration in E.U HQ was obviously a praise of his self-worth ego.

The British Tory's have agreed with Ireland in their latest quest to leave ourselves short-changed but since when have the Tory's had the best in mind regarding our country. At least we had a vote on such matters - the English are still fuming about their inability to even consider the matter as it wasn't put to the public.

I for one will be listening to both sides arguments and not making a decision based on biased and negative influential parties.

Purple Gorilla

Where in history has there ever been a project like this? Never before on this continent has there ever been a Union like this. Has there been a time before the EU, where countries weren't at war on the continent?

Hola_Bola

Purple Gorilla wrote: »

Where in history has there ever been a project like this? Never before on this continent has there ever been a Union like this. Has there been a time before the EU, where countries weren't at war on the continent?

its the germans. they have learned from the past that war is not how they will obtain victory and have discarded the gun, but have now picked up these treaties for us to "sign on or face the consequences". im fearful that a yes vote will leave germany firmly in charge of the e.u - who could stop them?

dlofnep

Purple Gorilla wrote: »

Ok well what about the fact that Labour and Fine Gael also support the Lisbon Treaty?

Didn't they also support it last time?

I'm voting no. Just for the craic. Just to negate some other wanker's yes vote. Welcome to democracy!

Purple Gorilla

dlofnep wrote: »

Didn't they also support it last time?

I'm voting no. Just for the craic. Just to negate some other wanker's yes vote. Welcome to democracy!

That's my point. People voting no to spite the government seem to ignore the fact that the only real alternatives, Labour & Fine Gael also support it.

Hola_Bola wrote: »

its the germans. they have learned from the past that war is not how they will obtain victory and have discarded the gun, but have now picked up these treaties for us to "sign on or face the consequences". im fearful that a yes vote will leave germany firmly in charge of the e.u - who could stop them?

That's weird because the Lisbon Treaty goes the opposite way of that? QMV under the Lisbon Treaty will be aimed towards smaller states so the big states can't just gang up and pass legislation that they want.

This is from Wiki and shows the requirements for legislation to pass under QMV:

• To pass: Majority of countries (55% or 72%) representing 65% of the population or condition to block not met
• To block: At least 4 countries against the proposal or in cases where, under the Treaties, not all members participate the minimum number of members representing more than 35% of the population of the participating Member States, plus one member are against the proposal

What about the Lisbon Treaty leads you to believe that the Germans are using this treaty for malicious means?

Rebelheart

There is only one answer to this vote: yes. It's just silly to vote anything else considering what has happened to this state in the past 12 months.

Never mind the fact that waiting in the wings hoping the Irish vote 'No' are the British eurosceptics rubbing their hands gleefully and re-imagining a new, Phoenix-like "British Isles" rising under a reunited "British" government that is closer to the United States and holds out against the EU and progress generally. What a spectre for Irish independence, and what bedfellows for Sinn Féin.


This one is going to pass - easily. Most Irish people don't have their heads in the sand now.

ChocolateSauce

shenanigans1982 wrote: »

And I'm sure we will get to vote again if the government don't get the result they want.

Such simplistic thinking doesn't mix well with politics.

IRockUrSocks

Rebelheart wrote: »

This one is going to pass - easily. Most Irish people don't have their heads in the sand now.

I've met literally dozens of people who still don't know the full proposals. I hope they are in the minority.

MelonieHead

It's about the government taking the p*ss out of the citizens.

Rabies

Extra option added for those that are not gonna vote

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

MelonieHead wrote: »

It's about the government taking the p*ss out of the citizens.

Explain...

Morlar

No means No.

Ziggurat

Yes, we've all heard that tautology before, what's your point?

hobochris

Rebelheart wrote: »

There is only one answer to this vote: yes. It's just silly to vote anything else considering what has happened to this state in the past 12 months.

Never mind the fact that waiting in the wings hoping the Irish vote 'No' are the British eurosceptics rubbing their hands gleefully and re-imagining a new, Phoenix-like "British Isles" rising under a reunited "British" government that is closer to the United States and holds out against the EU and progress generally. What a spectre for Irish independence, and what bedfellows for Sinn Féin.


This one is going to pass - easily. Most Irish people don't have their heads in the sand now.

Any facts to back up this scare mongering?

do you have proof of any of these claims?

Can you 100% prove that the events that have occurred in this state over the past few months have anything what so ever to do with the outcome of the last Lisbon vote?

Can you prove the economies state(within a global recession) would be different had the vote gone the other way?

Truth be told I find your "vote yes or the economy will suffer and we will return to British rule" humorous to say the least.

I wont hold my breath waiting for your answers...