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What Is This Lisbon Treaty All About?

IRockUrSocks

Personally, I've read a few leaflets on it but they are just as misleading as they were a few months ago. Can anybody really make it clear to us what the pro's and con's are? Fianna Fail sure are having a hard time doing that...

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Schism

Does the government really think that they'll get a yes vote this time. I think the word fiasco fits in nicely here.

Purple Gorilla

Schism wrote: »

Does the government really think that they'll get a yes vote this time. I think the word fiasco fits in nicely here.

Ok well what about the fact that Labour and Fine Gael also support the Lisbon Treaty?

TheZohanS

Schism wrote: »

Does the government really think that they'll get a yes vote this time. I think the word fiasco fits in nicely here.

We should take the governments advice on this one, they need our support.

The last thing we want to do is make them look foolish.

PrivateEye

You can have it in any colour you want, as long as its black.

Does the government really think that they'll get a yes vote this time.

They will, they seem to have somehow convinced people a Yes vote will play some part in fixing the economy, which obviously is just as much of a lie as this Army of European (Conscripted) Gays and Abortionists we kept hearing about. Both sides produced some crackers last time, but I'm still on the No side.

Purple Gorilla

PrivateEye wrote: »

You can have it in any colour you want, as long as its black.

They will, they seem to have somehow convinced people a Yes vote will play some part in fixing the economy, which obviously is just as much of a lie as this Army of European (Conscripted) Gays and Abortionists we kept hearing about. Both sides produced some crackers last time, but I'm still on the No side.

It won't hurt our economy by voting no, but it definitely won't make it any better. You need to listen to the heads of the multi-nationals here.
"While respecting views of the voters in Ireland, I think that the "no” vote has sent a strongly negative signal of the intent not only to our European counterparts but also to the many multinational companies who locate in Ireland because of the access our location and our participation in EU affairs provides, to Europe’s 460 million consumers." - Paul Rellis, Microsoft

Or maybe Jim O'Hara from Intel-
“A Yes vote is a signal of Ireland’s intention of being at the heart of Europe and a No vote can be interpreted that we want to go it alone – a decision that will be taken into account by any business considering investing in Ireland. I will be advocating a Yes vote.”

Darlughda

Yo big crazy purple gorilla and others

All I keep reading from my crazy history books is how the same shyte happens over and over again. Remember them tales of how we were the envy of Europe because we stayed out of the Empire mayhem running riot across the mainland then?

No?

Let me remind you, golden age of saints and scholars, artwork, development of spirituality and lots of good things.

Ok, some mad colonizers came along in the 4-5th century ad and imposed a system of centralized religion (oh the bells!) and writing and rewriting of our history. But hey ho. such is the way of history.

IRockUrSocks

Very good educated replies.

I thought the E.U's Lisbon Treaty would set a new agenda in the making of the Superstate. Surely, it's just a matter of time now anyway. Perhaps Ireland's refusal to vote "yes" last year has put us in a tighter spot given the current economic climate?

I don't think our relationship with the continent could get any worse if we voted "yes" at this stage, only help our future aspirations. I re-call watching Brian Cowen give us his opinion on the new write-up. He spoke of his "critical" involvement in pushing benefits for Ireland. Talk of a new Commissioner to oversee our issues and our in-puts being taken into consideration in E.U HQ was obviously a praise of his self-worth ego.

The British Tory's have agreed with Ireland in their latest quest to leave ourselves short-changed but since when have the Tory's had the best in mind regarding our country. At least we had a vote on such matters - the English are still fuming about their inability to even consider the matter as it wasn't put to the public.

I for one will be listening to both sides arguments and not making a decision based on biased and negative influential parties.

Purple Gorilla

Where in history has there ever been a project like this? Never before on this continent has there ever been a Union like this. Has there been a time before the EU, where countries weren't at war on the continent?

Hola_Bola

Purple Gorilla wrote: »

Where in history has there ever been a project like this? Never before on this continent has there ever been a Union like this. Has there been a time before the EU, where countries weren't at war on the continent?

its the germans. they have learned from the past that war is not how they will obtain victory and have discarded the gun, but have now picked up these treaties for us to "sign on or face the consequences". im fearful that a yes vote will leave germany firmly in charge of the e.u - who could stop them?

dlofnep

Purple Gorilla wrote: »

Ok well what about the fact that Labour and Fine Gael also support the Lisbon Treaty?

Didn't they also support it last time?

I'm voting no. Just for the craic. Just to negate some other wanker's yes vote. Welcome to democracy!

Purple Gorilla

dlofnep wrote: »

Didn't they also support it last time?

I'm voting no. Just for the craic. Just to negate some other wanker's yes vote. Welcome to democracy!

That's my point. People voting no to spite the government seem to ignore the fact that the only real alternatives, Labour & Fine Gael also support it.

Hola_Bola wrote: »

its the germans. they have learned from the past that war is not how they will obtain victory and have discarded the gun, but have now picked up these treaties for us to "sign on or face the consequences". im fearful that a yes vote will leave germany firmly in charge of the e.u - who could stop them?

That's weird because the Lisbon Treaty goes the opposite way of that? QMV under the Lisbon Treaty will be aimed towards smaller states so the big states can't just gang up and pass legislation that they want.

This is from Wiki and shows the requirements for legislation to pass under QMV:

To pass: Majority of countries (55% or 72%) representing 65% of the population or condition to block not met
To block: At least 4 countries against the proposal or in cases where, under the Treaties, not all members participate the minimum number of members representing more than 35% of the population of the participating Member States, plus one member are against the proposal

What about the Lisbon Treaty leads you to believe that the Germans are using this treaty for malicious means?

Rebelheart

There is only one answer to this vote: yes. It's just silly to vote anything else considering what has happened to this state in the past 12 months.

Never mind the fact that waiting in the wings hoping the Irish vote 'No' are the British eurosceptics rubbing their hands gleefully and re-imagining a new, Phoenix-like "British Isles" rising under a reunited "British" government that is closer to the United States and holds out against the EU and progress generally. What a spectre for Irish independence, and what bedfellows for Sinn Féin.

This one is going to pass - easily. Most Irish people don't have their heads in the sand now.

ChocolateSauce

shenanigans1982 wrote: »

And I'm sure we will get to vote again if the government don't get the result they want.

Such simplistic thinking doesn't mix well with politics.

IRockUrSocks

Rebelheart wrote: »

This one is going to pass - easily. Most Irish people don't have their heads in the sand now.

I've met literally dozens of people who still don't know the full proposals. I hope they are in the minority.

MelonieHead

It's about the government taking the p*ss out of the citizens.

Rabies

Extra option added for those that are not gonna vote

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

MelonieHead wrote: »

It's about the government taking the p*ss out of the citizens.

Explain...

Morlar

No means No.

Ziggurat

Yes, we've all heard that tautology before, what's your point?

hobochris

Rebelheart wrote: »

There is only one answer to this vote: yes. It's just silly to vote anything else considering what has happened to this state in the past 12 months.

Never mind the fact that waiting in the wings hoping the Irish vote 'No' are the British eurosceptics rubbing their hands gleefully and re-imagining a new, Phoenix-like "British Isles" rising under a reunited "British" government that is closer to the United States and holds out against the EU and progress generally. What a spectre for Irish independence, and what bedfellows for Sinn Féin.

This one is going to pass - easily. Most Irish people don't have their heads in the sand now.

Any facts to back up this scare mongering?

do you have proof of any of these claims?

Can you 100% prove that the events that have occurred in this state over the past few months have anything what so ever to do with the outcome of the last Lisbon vote?

Can you prove the economies state(within a global recession) would be different had the vote gone the other way?

Truth be told I find your "vote yes or the economy will suffer and we will return to British rule" humorous to say the least.

I wont hold my breath waiting for your answers...

mickdw

Without claiming to know much about the treaty, it appears to me from media reports that the huge majority of people in the EU would vote against this given the chance. Its just unlucky that most countries governments can push this through without asking the people.
Even it all these people are against it because they cannot quite understand it still means it shouldnt go through until a revised plan can be clearly put to the people. Unfortunately, that is not going to happen as constitutionally most governments can just sign off on these things.
For these reasons, I think we should do our best to stop this thing in its tracks as we have the power to do it. Forget about the threats of being left behind etc. That was said after the first vote and it didnt happen. They are back begging for a yes vote now. If this thing is stopped, we might get something more transparent.
Far from being left behind, we have obtained guarantees from Europe (although most likely worthless) re what is/is not contained in treaty.
Vote no I say.

dlofnep

Purple Gorilla wrote: »

That's my point. People voting no to spite the government seem to ignore the fact that the only real alternatives, Labour & Fine Gael also support it.

I voted no the last time; and my estimates have come true - I am voting no again. The same parties supported the yes vote last time as this time - It has no bearing on my vote. I'm not handing our power over to Europe, which clearly already has a hold on Irish politics by forcing a re-run of the referendum. And on what premise? The fact that people were misinformed or undereducated last time around? The average Joe still doesn't have a clue what the treaty is about and they will still be uninformed this time around.

My vote was no - but apparently, it was the wrong answer, and will continue to be the wrong answer until I vote yes. This treaty has been rejected time and time again, under different forms and guises.. but it still manages to crawl back into politics. People are pissed off with this, and don't want to keep voting on the same issue. If it fails again (which it probably won't due to the Government using scaremongering), then it still will be passed.

The_Minister

Darlughda wrote: »

No male baby I cuddle in my arms today is ever going to be forced to fight in organised murder if I can help it. That is why I am voting NO to Lisbon.

So you believe that the Lisbon Treaty will lead to conscription.

Despite the fact that it won't, and that there is nothing in the treaty that could lead to conscription.

Despite the fact that this exact same allegation was levelled against the Maastricht Treaty and the Nice treaty.

Both of which passed without conscription being introduced.

Tell me, do you have any rational reason for believing this?

The_Minister

dlofnep wrote: »

My vote was no - but apparently, it was the wrong answer, and will continue to be the wrong answer until I vote yes.

Then you will be absolutely thrilled to hear that this is the last time we get to vote on this.
If we vote No, the Lisbon Treaty is dead and gone.

There will still be future treaties, containing many of the same clauses as the Lisbon Treaty, because some changes have to be made, but most likely any future treaty will be substantially different.

dlofnep

The_Minister wrote: »

Then you will be absolutely thrilled to hear that this is the last time we get to vote on this.

I was told that the last time.

The_Minister wrote: »

If we vote No, the Lisbon Treaty is dead and gone.

Do you not think that they will ratify it anyway, and give Ireland clauses if it fails again?

The_Minister wrote: »

There will still be future treaties, containing many of the same clauses as the Lisbon Treaty, because some changes have to be made, but most likely any future treaty will be substantially different.

Same shít, different shade of brown, tbh.

The_Minister

mickdw wrote: »

Without claiming to know much about the treaty, it appears to me from media reports that the huge majority of people in the EU would vote against this given the chance.

Actually overall more people voted for it than against it. :P

mickdw wrote: »

Its just unlucky that most countries governments can push this through without asking the people.

If you read the Crotty judgement you'll see that our government probably can too. There is nothing forcing the government to have a referendum on more than a small part of the treaty - it's just become a tradition in Ireland, started by Haughey, that we vote on the whole treaty.

mickdw wrote: »

Even it all these people are against it because they cannot quite understand it still means it shouldnt go through until a revised plan can be clearly put to the people.

It is a treaty negotiated by 25 members covering all the countries of Europe, 500 million people with various languages and cultures.
It can't be simple.
There are 5 pages on the Polish steel industry alone for example.
But, even now, a man with average intelligence can understand the Lisbon Treaty. He just needs to make some coffee and stick with it for several hours. He will also need to look up several pieces of background information so he can put it in context.
The treaty isn't as complicated and unreadable as the No side have made out, it merely requires perseverance.

IRockUrSocks

The_Minister wrote: »

But, even now, a man with average intelligence can understand the Lisbon Treaty. He just needs to make some coffee and stick with it for several hours. He will also need to look up several pieces of background information so he can put it in context.
The treaty isn't as complicated and unreadable as the No side have made out, it merely requires perseverance.

Wasn't Biffo asked if he had even read it? The grin on his face suggested he was getting around to it. Too busy spending his salary which exceeds both Barack Obama's and Mr. Browns.

The_Minister

Rebelheart wrote: »

There is only one answer to this vote: yes. It's just silly to vote anything else considering what has happened to this state in the past 12 months.

Don't call all No voters silly.
Many of them are, and many of them are just confused, but some of them have decent reasons for voting No.
Calling people silly for voting No is the kind of complacency and arrogance that killed the first Lisbon Treaty.

Also, while the EU is the only reason Ireland is still here after the last year or so, the rejection of the Lisbon Treaty did not cause the economic crash.

Rebelheart wrote: »

This one is going to pass - easily. Most Irish people don't have their heads in the sand now.

Actually, I think it might fail again.

thomond2006

TheZohan wrote: »

Yes, plus only Sinn Fein suporters and people who are ignorant of the facts vote No.

+1

Since when did anyone give two ****s about what those a-holes say?

The_Minister

IRockUrSocks wrote: »

Wasn't Biffo asked if he had even read it? The grin on his face suggested he was getting around to it. Too busy spending his salary which exceeds both Barack Obama's and Mr. Browns.

He helped negotiate it.
He may not have read it cover to cover but he would certainly have been aware of its contents and the remifications of what it contained.