Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Tel Aviv gay center Slaughter!

Options
1235

Comments

  • Options
    #122
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    I.J. wrote: »
    It is a negative opinion of homosexuality and is therefore in my opinion homophobic and homophobia IS NOT to be tolerated.

    Homophobia refers to a hatred, contempt and fear of homosexuals. One can say that people are not born gay, while not hating homosexuals. The word is being abused unfairly to stifle debate. One has to ask themselves do they value free speech, or do they incentivise offence?
    I.J. wrote: »
    Are those people who express that opinion aware of the serious damage they inflict on fellow people? Are you not aware of the suffering the spread of this mis-informed opinion causes?

    Holding an opinion causes damage? If I were actively screaming hatred about homosexuals, I might understand your viewpoint, but I think that homosexuals should be respected as equals within our society.

    As for mis-informed information, it is mis-informed to suggest that people are definitely biologically predetermined to be gay when we have no clear evidence to suggest such. The best we can say is we don't know.
    I.J. wrote: »
    The young people in Tel Aviv who were murdered and wounded were at a support group which to me means they were trying to make sense of their lives and move forward for a brighter future.

    It's appalling that blood should be spillt over this. Living together in a peaceable manner is the ideal we need to aim for.
    I.J. wrote: »
    Nobody chooses to be homosexual. It is the natural course of nature. It is unnatural to deny homosexuality because you are therefore suppressing the individuals natural path. A path which is of no danger to anybody.

    That's your opinion. You are entitled to it. Others are entitled to theirs.


  • Options
    #123
    procure11
    Closed Accounts Posts: 421 ✭✭procure11


    wes wrote: »
    Homosexual's can't get married in Israel. In fact Israel doesn't even have civil marriage.


    I am very surprised with your post.Even the most basic of searches show you are wrong.........

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Israel

    The rights Homosexuals have in Israel surpass those in Ireland....fact!!!


  • Options
    #124
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Jeez Jakkass, now we're disagreeing on two threads:o
    Scientifically we currently don't know whether homosexuality is biologically predetermined or not. The possibility is left open. You may disagree with that as a matter of opinion, but I don't think that people should deride people for not sharing the same opinion as you. We are free thinking creatures.
    Wut? Nothing in life is predetermined.


  • Options
    #125
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    fred_1985 wrote: »
    You'd have to admit that being gay is fundamently just plain wrong.

    You are fundamently wrong.


  • Options
    #126
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    procure11 wrote: »
    I am very surprised with your post.Even the most basic of searches show you are wrong.........

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Israel

    The rights Homosexuals have in Israel surpass those in Ireland....fact!!!

    Your own link says Homosexuals only have common law marriage, and don't have proper marriage. So everything I said was perfectly accurate. Israel does not have civil marriage and Homosexuals can't get married, something a simple Google will confirm.

    I am very surprised that you equate a "common" law marriage, that doesn't give Homosexual's all the same rights as being the same as regular marriage. Common law marriage and regular marriage are different things you know, there not the same, especially when they don't accord the same rights. This discrmination btw, extends to anyone who doesn't fit certain Religious rules under Jewish law for regular marriage, so the marriage discrimination is more wide spread.

    Also, I see no point in playing who is better game. Ireland treats people who aren't part of the majority ethnic/religious group far better than Israel does, I don't remember the Irish government bombing any such minority groups here or illegally evicting them from there homes for instance. Way I see it, hate is hate, hating someone because they are a different race is no better than hating someone because there Homosexual.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #127
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,267 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    It is a negative opinion of homosexuality and is therefore in my opinion homophobic and homophobia IS NOT to be tolerated

    Heaven forbid that anyone should have a negative opinion of something you like or approve of. We either have a right to free expression, or we don't. It is limited by bounds such as incitement or actually acting on those beliefs to the unlawful detrement of others (Such as shooting them), but if you don't like what someone has to say, that's your problem.

    NTM


  • Options
    #128
    Zebra3
    Registered Users Posts: 13,857 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    netwhizkid wrote: »
    The thing unusual is that Israel has been pretty quite since Hezbollah and themselves kicked the crap out of each other 2 years ago, I hope things are not going to descend into conflict like a few years ago out there again.

    Did you sleep through the Israeli war on Gaza? :confused:


  • Options
    #129
    I.J.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 151 ✭✭I.J.


    Manic Moran wrote: »
    Heaven forbid that anyone should have a negative opinion of something you like or approve of. We either have a right to free expression, or we don't. It is limited by bounds such as incitement or actually acting on those beliefs to the unlawful detrement of others (Such as shooting them), but if you don't like what someone has to say, that's your problem.

    NTM

    That still doesn't mean it is isn't homophobia or for the choice of a better word heterosexist. Thats all I'm protesting here.

    Can you imagine if somebody was to say, to be black is unnatural? Wouldn't that be racist and ridiculous. Thats the same thing here reagrding the "opinion" on homosexuality. Its heterosexist and ridiculous. Its as pointless as somebody saying heterosexuality is unnatural. It might be an opinion but its ridiculous to make such claims. Besides, you are now dragging me with you way off topic from the point of this thread. Taking into consideration the topic of this thread, the argument that homosexuality is unnatural appears to be some justification for the murders or it wouldnt be an opinion raised here.


  • Options
    #130
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,267 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Should I take that argument to mean that the comments about the Hamas war last year are to be taken as expressions that this killing of Israelis is an effect of Karma?

    This is AH. Things get derailed all the time here.

    NTM


  • Options
    #131
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    I.J. wrote: »
    Can you imagine if somebody was to say, to be black is unnatural? Wouldn't that be racist and ridiculous. Thats the same thing here reagrding the "opinion" on homosexuality. Its heterosexist and ridiculous. Its as pointless as somebody saying heterosexuality is unnatural. It might be an opinion but its ridiculous to make such claims. Besides, you are now dragging me with you way off topic from the point of this thread. Taking into consideration the topic of this thread, the argument that homosexuality is unnatural appears to be some justification for the murders or it wouldnt be an opinion raised here.

    Being gay isn't the same thing as being black. Being black is genetically determined, there isn't anything clear to suggest that this is true for being gay.

    Of course this isn't justification for the murders, nothing is. However, people are just as right to challenge you in your views. It's a forum, not a podium.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #132
    I.J.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 151 ✭✭I.J.


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Being gay isn't the same thing as being black. Being black is genetically determined, there isn't anything clear to suggest that this is true for being gay.

    Tell me what is there to tell us it isn't true.


  • Options
    #133
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    I.J. wrote: »
    Tell me what is there to tell us it isn't true.

    I assert that I don't know, and nobody knows whether or not it is biologically predetermined and I don't think we should be making assumptions.

    Whereas we do know that being black is a result of genetics.


  • Options
    #134
    I.J.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 151 ✭✭I.J.


    Jakkass wrote: »
    I assert that I don't know, and nobody knows whether or not it is biologically predetermined and I don't think we should be making assumptions.

    Whereas we do know that being black is a result of genetics.

    If the answer is inconclusive, an argument about it doesnt belong on this thread.


  • Options
    #135
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Being gay isn't the same thing as being black. Being black is genetically determined, there isn't anything clear to suggest that this is true for being gay.
    .

    Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight, so if, and I stess if we had no proof that being black was natural what would you're position on blacks be then?

    Bottom line is this, everything that occurs, is NATURAL, gays are frequent in nature to suggest that they are unnatural is naive at best.


  • Options
    #136
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Malty_T wrote: »
    Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight, so if, and I stess if we had no proof that being black was natural what would you're position on blacks be then?

    It's utterly irrelevant as we know full well that happens. In that situation I would be humble enough to accept that I did not know.
    Malty_T wrote: »
    Bottom line is this, everything that occurs, is NATURAL, gays are frequent in nature to suggest that they are unnatural is naive at best.

    I have never said that homosexuality does not take place in nature. I merely contest the notion that we know that it is biologically predetermined. I.E that it is hard wired into people.

    In nature it occurs for a very different reason than it does in the human species. For example, beetles have been recorded to engage in homosexual activity as a means of increasing their chances in finding a female partner according to research:
    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/11/081104-homosexual-beetles.html

    Just because these things happen does not mean they happen because it is biologically determined to happen. There are other reasons to be considered first.
    "So many papers look at these sorts of behaviors and immediately consider them from a human perspective. This paper has done a remarkable job of not sexing up the homosexuality and [instead] just asking why beetles do this."


  • Options
    #137
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Jakkass wrote: »
    .
    It's utterly irrelevant as we know full well that happens. In that situation I would be humble enough to accept that I did not know.

    It is relevant, Black people (as were women) were once seen as unnatural so, my question again is if we did not know today that being black was natural what would you're position be?


    I have never said that homosexuality does not take place in nature. I merely contest the notion that we know that it is biologically predetermined. In nature it occurs for a very different reason than it does in the human species. For example, beetles have been recorded to engage in homosexual activity as a means of increasing their chances in finding a female partner according to research:
    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/11/081104-homosexual-beetles.html

    Just because these things happen does not mean they happen because it is biologically determined to happen. There are other reasons to be considered first
    Reasons such as?

    Why is anything biologically determined? Nothing is written in stone, for a baby to decide whether s/he will be a 'she' or a 'he' is a violent process of survival.Nobody is the same, any human being in a human body is natural to suggest otherwise is a delusion imposed by either religion, or society. To suggest that gays are anything but natural is almost in the same vein as saying people with Asthma, or folk with allergies or freckles are unnatural because they are different, and that is all they are : variances of human being. We are all part of this variant, and instead of dismissing gays because they don't conform to some peoples image of the 'perfect world' we should help them accept who they are by supporting them, and accepting that they are a fact of life. Sometimes I wonder if it is 'they' or 'we' that needs to be helped.


  • Options
    #138
    tbaymusicman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,029 ✭✭✭tbaymusicman


    Aileen Witty Ragamuffin wrote: »
    Yes homophobia is way worse

    How could homophobia be worse then terrorism:eek:

    Surely terrorism is worse,or they are in fact one of the same??


  • Options
    #139
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Malty_T wrote: »
    It is relevant, Black people (as were women) were once seen as unnatural so, my question again is if we did not know today that being black was natural what would you're position be?

    I answered you. Women were never seen as unnatural ever. That's nonsense. Neither were black people. They were just mistreated because of difference, or because people had certain archaic notions of them. That's outright wrong, I also disagree very strongly with the mistreatment of homosexuals.

    Anyhow, if we didn't know how black people were black. I'd be honest and say I don't know instead of pretending that I did.

    Likewise, if we don't know how sexual orientation is formed, I'll be honest and say I don't know, as opposed to pretending that I do.

    I've never said that homosexuality does not take place in nature, I have argued that it takes place for very different reasons than is the case in humanity.
    Malty_T wrote: »
    Reasons such as?

    It could be attributed to social factors. I think all possible options need to be considered before we assume that it is biologically determined.
    Malty_T wrote: »
    Why is anything biologically determined? Nothing is written in stone, for a baby to decide whether s/he will be a 'she' or a 'he' is a violent process of survival.

    Yes, of course gender is genetically determined. It's based on the X or Y-chromosone in the sperm. We don't know how sexual orientation is formed yet.

    Malty_T wrote: »
    Nobody is the same, any human being in a human body is natural to suggest otherwise is a delusion imposed by either religion, or society.

    I'm quite aware. People are different for many different reasons. Not all of them come down to genetics. Would you agree with that much? Yes or no?
    Malty_T wrote: »
    To suggest that gays are anything but natural is almost in the same vein as saying people with Asthma, or folk with allergies or freckles are unnatural because they are different, and that is all they are : variances of human being.

    Read my last post again.

    I have never said that homosexuality does not take place in nature. I have said that there is no reason to assume that homosexuality is biologically determined. We don't know how it is formed, and we should stop pretending that we do.
    Malty_T wrote: »
    We are all part of this variant, and instead of dismissing gays because they don't conform to some peoples image of the 'perfect world' we should help them accept who they are by supporting them, and accepting that they are a fact of life. Sometimes I wonder if it is 'they' or 'we' that needs to be helped.

    I don't dismiss homosexuals at all in any respect, I merely disagree with the idea that we know that homosexuality is biologically hardwired into people. We don't.


  • Options
    #140
    ninjasurfer1
    Registered Users Posts: 485 ✭✭ninjasurfer1


    Malty_T wrote: »
    It is relevant, Black people (as were women) were once seen as unnatural so, my question again is if we did not know today that being black was natural what would you're position be?

    Malty_T, I'm curious as to when Black people and Women were considered unnatural?
    I know they were once considered to be inferior to white males, but I can't remember when they were thought to be unnatural?
    (I'm not stirring, but genuinely curious).


  • Options
    #141
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I love how everyone here is throwing around the word "natural" without actually agreeing what it means.

    It seems to me that this is really the source of your debate.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #142
    turgon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭turgon


    Why does it matter whether homosexuality is biologically pre-determined or not?


  • Options
    #143
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    I don't agree with Jakkass' views, but he certainly expresses himself in a polite manner and doesn't intend to insult anyone. I personally don't think that genetic pre-determination is of any importance. The days of people being gay as something taboo are over. It's time for people to move on and accept that people have different tastes - be it sexuality, music or food.


  • Options
    #144
    Reflector
    Registered Users Posts: 380 ✭✭Reflector


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Homophobia refers to a hatred, contempt and fear of homosexuals. One can say that people are not born gay, while not hating homosexuals. The word is being abused unfairly to stifle debate. One has to ask themselves do they value free speech, or do they incentivise offence?

    Holding an opinion causes damage? If I were actively screaming hatred about homosexuals, I might understand your viewpoint, but I think that homosexuals should be respected as equals within our society.

    As for mis-informed information, it is mis-informed to suggest that people are definitely biologically predetermined to be gay when we have no clear evidence to suggest such. The best we can say is we don't know.

    It's appalling that blood should be spillt over this. Living together in a peaceable manner is the ideal we need to aim for.

    That's your opinion. You are entitled to it. Others are entitled to theirs.

    Someone pointed out that Jakkass presents his arguements in a very polite fashion and also in a way to encourage debate and conversation which is to be respected.

    But to comment on some points. although it is not proven that people are born gay as babies and children are not sexually developed but studies have been done monitoring children and then finding out what their sexual oreintation was as adults. these results were inconclusive.

    I have no doubt in my mind that I was born with a some sort of innate personality and included in that was a sexuality. I have always fancied men and besides a brief attempt at dating girls in my teens in order to fit in I have never fancied women. Some of my friends have and still do sleep with women but identify as gay. We are both gay men and through this we have become friends but our sexuality is quite different. if as a child I had attended ballet classes instead of playing rugby or maybe hung around listening to Hip hop music rather that heavy metal I may be a different person then I am now but I would still be attracted to men. If I was abused as a child I may react differently towards sex. If my friends had all been coke fiends or heroin addicts I may respond differently socially but I would still be attracted to men.

    I see that there is an finite amount of people on this planet but each of us is genetically unique and each of us has a unique personality which is shaped by both our genetics and our environment. Being gay is a part of humanity, an innate part. It's not an opinion you can have, these are facts, people are born gay, if you want this can be rephrased that people are born with same sex attraction or a degree of same sex attraction and everyone is born with a certain degree of same sex attraction.
    Believe me, everyone when they realise that they are gay they always try not to be as it sets them apart which as a young person is a great fear. It rarely works and usually results in creating insecure young adults lacking in confidence.

    Calling gay peope unnatural or deeming them to be the product of some sort of childhood mis-development is a wrong idea. It suggests that either gay people should either be got rid of or perhaps children should be subjected to some sort of anti gay education to ensure heterosexuality. This is wrong, all children should be allowed develop without persecution and should not be told to descriminate against anyone.

    Ireland has come a long way and it is so great to see so many people out and proud but gay people live in countries all around the world and there is not one civiliasation of humans on earth that does contain both gay men and women. But some of these people are subjected to horriffic abuse and persecution which is so unneccessary as there is nothing wrong with consensual love no matter what the gender.

    This tradegy in Tel aviv where lgb people have rights and freedoms unknown to many living in countries in that region is a real symbol of how human rights for all gay people around the world needs to be continued.


  • Options
    #145
    JupiterKid
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 12,639 Mod ✭✭✭✭JupiterKid


    Reflector wrote: »
    Someone pointed out that Jakkass presents his arguements in a very polite fashion and also in a way to encourage debate and conversation which is to be respected.

    But to comment on some points. although it is not proven that people are born gay as babies and children are not sexually developed but studies have been done monitoring children and then finding out what their sexual oreintation was as adults. these results were inconclusive.
    I have no doubt in my mind that I was born with a some sort of innate personality and included in that was a sexuality. I haev always fancied men and besides a brief attempt at dating girls in my teens in order to fit in I have never fancied women. Some of my friends have and still do sleep with women but identify as gay. We are both gay men and through this we have become friends but our sexuality is quite different. if as a child I had attended ballet classes instead of playing rugby or maybe hung around listening to Hip hop music rather that heavy metal I may be a different person then I am now but I would still be attracted to men. If I was abused as a child I may react differently towards sex. If my friends had all been coke fiends or heroin addicts I may respond differently socially but I would still be attracted to men.
    I see that there is an finite amount of people on this planet but each of us is genetically unique and each of us has a unique personality which is shaped by both our genetics and our environment. Being gay is a part of humanity, an innate part. It's not an opinion you can have, these are facts, people are born gay, if you want this can be rephrased that people are born with same sex attraction or a degree of same sex attraction and everyone is born with a certain degree of same sex attraction.
    Believe me, everyone when they realise that they are gay they always try not to be as it sets them apart which as a young person is a great fear. It rarely works and usually results in creating insecure young adults lacking in confidence.
    Calling gay peope unnatural or deeming them to be the product of some sort of childhood mis-development is a wrong idea. It suggests that either gay people should either be got rid of or perhaps children should be subjected to some sort of anti gay education to ensure heterosexuality. This is wrong, all children should be allowed develop without persecution and should not be told to descriminate against anyone.
    Ireland has come a long way and it is so great to see so many people out and proud but gay people live in countries all around the world and there is not one civiliasation of humans on earth that does contain both gay men and women. But some of these people are subjected to horriffic abuse and persecution which is so unneccessary as there is nothing wrong with consensual love no matter what the gender.

    This tradegy in Tel aviv where lgb people have rights and freedoms unknown to many living in countries in that region is a real symbol of how human rights for all gay people around the world needs to be continued.


    I completely agree with those comments.:) As a gay man myself, I think a lot of people out there still need educating, because irrational religious beliefs and ignorance can easily translate into hatred and bigotry that marginalises gay people, causes then misery, leads to suicides and, in extreme cases, leads to sickening homophobic attacks like the one in Israel.

    Gay people are here to stay and and we aren't going back into our closets.:cool:


  • Options
    #146
    DeVore
    Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 32,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭DeVore


    I never really understood what catholics/religious people had/have against gays.

    They dont hurt anyone, they dont impose themselves on religious types or try to interrupt their way of life.

    I cant see why they simply cant "live and let live".

    Leave the issue of natural or unnatural aside (remember, its unnatural to get in a plane and fly somewhere), what exactly is WRONG with homosexuality that religious people get so fnkcing uptight about? Leave consenting adults alone (in all things!) imho...


    DeV.


  • Options
    #147
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Reflector wrote: »
    Someone pointed out that Jakkass presents his arguements in a very polite fashion and also in a way to encourage debate and conversation which is to be respected.

    I try my best.
    Reflector wrote: »
    But to comment on some points. although it is not proven that people are born gay as babies and children are not sexually developed but studies have been done monitoring children and then finding out what their sexual oreintation was as adults. these results were inconclusive.

    That's all the recognition I am looking for, that we don't know as much as we claim to. We can only speculate, and to claim that someone is being hateful for telling the mere truth that we don't know is a bit extreme don't you think?
    Reflector wrote: »
    I see that there is an finite amount of people on this planet but each of us is genetically unique and each of us has a unique personality which is shaped by both our genetics and our environment. Being gay is a part of humanity, an innate part. It's not an opinion you can have, these are facts, people are born gay, if you want this can be rephrased that people are born with same sex attraction or a degree of same sex attraction and everyone is born with a certain degree of same sex attraction.

    You're very correct in saying that we are genetically unique, but we don't know currently whether homosexuality is genetic. We can't be sure whether or not it is either genetic or innate. If it were innate, how come many people often get married to a partner of the opposite sex and then decide that they are gay later on and leave that relationship. I can cite cases, but I don't think it's really necessary.

    You might argue and argue that being homosexual is what you are born to be and that this is fact. However, it isn't fact at all. Fact means that something is universally accepted as being true. This certainly is not. It's a mere matter of opinion.
    Reflector wrote: »
    Calling gay peope unnatural or deeming them to be the product of some sort of childhood mis-development is a wrong idea. It suggests that either gay people should either be got rid of or perhaps children should be subjected to some sort of anti gay education to ensure heterosexuality. This is wrong, all children should be allowed develop without persecution and should not be told to descriminate against anyone.
    Ireland has come a long way and it is so great to see so many people out and proud but gay people live in countries all around the world and there is not one civiliasation of humans on earth that does contain both gay men and women. But some of these people are subjected to horriffic abuse and persecution which is so unneccessary as there is nothing wrong with consensual love no matter what the gender.

    I've argued that homosexuality does take place in nature for very different reasons than it takes place in human beings. In many cases it is to increase fertility before finding a female partner.

    I don't think people should have an education which is antagonistic towards homosexuality, not should people have an education which is overly biased towards it either. However, people should be certainly entitled to have different views about things without being accused of being homophobic. I merely disagree on whether or not it is fact that people are born homosexual. Bear in mind, I'm not closing off the possibility, it could be the case, but we don't know and we have no reason to assume.
    Reflector wrote: »
    This tradegy in Tel aviv where lgb people have rights and freedoms unknown to many living in countries in that region is a real symbol of how human rights for all gay people around the world needs to be continued.

    It's horrific that anyone should die whether or not they are homosexual.

    Thanks for the post Reflector, I just don't think I agree with your viewpoint :)
    DeVore wrote: »
    I never really understood what catholics/religious people had/have against gays.

    I don't think most of us have anything against homosexuals. Christians in general are encouraged to have compassion for other people it is a sin to despise or hate another. However, we see homosexual acts as being inconsistent with the Christian faith and the Christian lifestyle that we aim to live by.

    Infact it'd be highly hypocritical for us to have anything against homosexuals, because I too have sinned and fallen short of God's standard in many different ways.
    DeVore wrote: »
    They dont hurt anyone, they dont impose themselves on religious types or try to interrupt their way of life.

    Sins generally come into three categories.

    1. Harmful to others.
    2. Harmful to ones self.
    3. Transgressions against God.
    DeVore wrote: »
    I cant see why they simply cant "live and let live".

    It depends on what one means by "live and let live". It's a highly contentious notion. If live and let lives means that Christians have to suddenly change their religious viewpoint to consider homosexual acts to be 100% acceptable that isn't possible. We're commanded to preserve what God has revealed to mankind.

    However, if you mean that we can agree to disagree, I think that's a healthy option. True tolerance, is to recognise that people may disagree but that it shouldn't damage relationships between people.

    The notion of tolerance that has been forming recently in certain circles is that intolerance means that you don't agree with me. Which is pretty ironic as that is what intolerance really is.
    DeVore wrote: »
    Leave the issue of natural or unnatural aside (remember, its unnatural to get in a plane and fly somewhere), what exactly is WRONG with homosexuality that religious people get so fnkcing uptight about? Leave consenting adults alone (in all things!) imho...

    I agree with you here. It's not the question of whether unnatural or natural that really is the important issue.

    As for what Christians disagree with about homosexuality it might be best to consult the Christianity forum. However, Christians generally regard sex as something to be held within a marriage. Anything outside of this is a sin, or something that falls short of God's standard that He has set.

    I hope this post has clarified some things :)


  • Options
    #148
    Reflector
    Registered Users Posts: 380 ✭✭Reflector


    Jakkass wrote: »

    You're very correct in saying that we are genetically unique, but we don't know currently whether homosexuality is genetic. We can't be sure whether or not it is either genetic or innate. If it were innate, how come many people often get married to a partner of the opposite sex and then decide that they are gay later on and leave that relationship. I can cite cases, but I don't think it's really necessary.
    I don't claim that homosexuality is genetic but sexuality in a basic form is genetic. You can find examples of anything amongst a population of 6 billion. People who come to identify as gay later on in life doesn't mean that some event has triggered this or they decided to be gay, they were always gay.. Perhaps they were just repressing that side of themselves. I have a friend that was all about women growing up but at about 25/26 same sex attraction began to creep in. He says it was always there but he just didn't acknowledge it.
    I 100% believe that sexuality is genetic and if it wasn't then it would be very easy to manipulate a child into same sex or opposite sex attraction. Also by stating that homosexuality is not genetic than you are saying that the everyone is born Straight and then all other variations on this are caused by some event in a persons development whether in childhood or later on.

    This is just my opinion which I believe to be 100% fact :P


  • Options
    #149
    stovelid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,252 ✭✭✭✭stovelid


    doctor evil wrote: »
    Why do you think it is the Palestinians?

    No way,

    Those scarves are far too camp to implicate them in this.


  • Options
    #150
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Reflector wrote: »
    I don't claim that homosexuality is genetic but sexuality in a basic form is genetic. You can find examples of anything amongst a population of 6 billion.

    If you claim sexuality is genetic, you are claiming that homosexuality by extension is genetic. That doesn't make sense.
    Reflector wrote: »
    People who come to identify as gay later on in life doesn't mean that some event has triggered this or they decided to be gay, they were always gay.. Perhaps they were just repressing that side of themselves. I have a friend that was all about women growing up but at about 25/26 same sex attraction began to creep in. He says it was always there but he just didn't acknowledge it.

    It works both ways. There are people who have identified as being heterosexual after being involved in homosexual relationships in the past. It isn't just heterosexual to homosexual we are discussing about here.
    Reflector wrote: »
    I 100% believe that sexuality is genetic and if it wasn't then it would be very easy to manipulate a child into same sex or opposite sex attraction.

    There are other reasons why children wouldn't be manipulated into any form of attraction. Rather simply, because they don't want to could be a rather strong reason for someone to reject manipulation. Why assume genetics when one could explain it otherwise?
    Reflector wrote: »
    Also by stating that homosexuality is not genetic than you are saying that the everyone is born Straight and then all other variations on this are caused by some event in a persons development whether in childhood or later on.

    Or one could come to the conclusion that people are just born in general, full stop without putting labels on what people are born in the first place. In most things where we put labels on ourselves these are the result of our development rather than anything we are explicitly born with. The only exceptions I can think are of race and nationality. Even then both are really just social constructs.

    I have claimed that we don't know whether or not homosexuality is genetic. I am open to the possibility, but I think there are also other possibilities that should be discussed if we are to have a clear discussion on this. It could well be attributed to development or other factors, it's no more absurd than anything else that's on the table.
    Reflector wrote: »
    This is just my opinion which I believe to be 100% fact

    Facts aren't believed, they are held. You are entitled to your belief. However, I think that people should be more welcoming of other views on the subject instead of attempting to stifle debate.

    A fact is "a statement or assertion of verified information about something that is the case or has happened;"


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #151
    Reflector
    Registered Users Posts: 380 ✭✭Reflector


    Jakkass wrote: »

    There are other reasons why children wouldn't be manipulated into any form of attraction. Rather simply, because they don't want to could be a rather strong reason for someone to reject manipulation. Why assume genetics when one could explain it otherwise?

    Facts aren't believed, they are held. You are entitled to your belief. However, I think that people should be more welcoming of other views on the subject instead of attempting to stifle debate.

    A fact is "a statement or assertion of verified information about something that is the case or has happened;"

    Looks like we're not going to agree on this and it's way off topic but is interesting.

    My last arguement is this ; the many many times that childrens and adults sexuality has tried to be changed by all sorts of means from psychotherapy to electric shock treatment. It was concluded that many homosexuals couldn't change their sexual preference and any success which were few were attributed to a bisexual nature and repression of their same-sex attraction and also many ended up becoming asexual from the trauma of the treatment.

    Even in Iran where homosexuality is harshly dealt with they do not try these methods as they are deemed to be ineffective. They see that a cure to homosexuality is a sex change and they are one of the highest performers of this operation in the world. This of course is wrong as transsexuality and homosexuality are very different.

    It's this kind of evidence that leads me to believe that sexuality is an innate trait and is partially determined by a gene or mix of genes that shape this part of the brain and is so ingrained that any attempts to change this has been met with little to no sucess.

    Although many gay men claim that to change a straight man all you need is 8 beers and 4 whiskeys.

    My statement about 100% fact was a joke I respect your opinion and again it is something that can only be debated as it cannot be proved.


Advertisement