Tel Aviv gay center Slaughter!

Tom10

I.J. wrote: »

I don't believe nationalism should be brought into this. The issue was that innocent homosexual men and women were attacked and some killed. I believe this was an attacks on homosexuals, not Israel. Stop taking a serious issue and using it to let out whatever your politic viewpoints are. This is an attack on sexuality, an attack supppoting bigotry.

He did make reference to a serious issue but its not the right thread for it. He has a very valid point but making it here isn't right.

I.J.

Tom10 wrote: »

He did make reference to a serious issue but its not the right thread for it. He has a very valid point but making it here isn't right.

Exactly, he shouldn't be making it here. He's going off topic and taking advantage of one issue to get across a completely seperate point.

Tom10

I.J. wrote: »

Exactly, he shouldn't be making it here. He's going off topic and taking advantage of one issue to get across a completely seperate point.

Well he could make a case for it being connected and that here is a place to make the point. I don't think it is but certainly there's room to make that point here - I just wouldn't. Thinking your being too critical really IMO

door

I.J. wrote: »

Exactly, he shouldn't be making it here. He's going off topic and taking advantage of one issue to get across a completely seperate point.

Agreed. Keep such political views to another thread. This thread is centered around homosexuality and an attack on it.

indough

i thought it was a thread about people having been killed

FruitLover

fred_1985 wrote: »

Male + Female = Baby => core reason for we are alive today. Natural

Male + Male = abundance of erect penis => mess without product. Not Natural

Blowjobs are 'mess without product', but I bet you wouldn't refuse one based on it being 'unnatural and wrong.

philologos

I.J. wrote: »

I don't believe nationalism should be brought into this. The issue was that innocent homosexual men and women were attacked and some killed. I believe this was an attack on homosexuals, not Israel. Stop taking a serious issue and using it to let out whatever your political viewpoints are. This is an attack on sexuality, an attack supppoting bigotry.

I think you'll find the Israel - Palestine conflict is also rather serious.

indough

but it has nothing to do with this, so is irrelevant in this thread and has no reason to be brought up

dlofnep

RIP to them. Nobody should be persecuted for their sexuality.

philologos

indough wrote: »

but it has nothing to do with this, so is irrelevant in this thread and has no reason to be brought up

It depends on what background the attacker had. The article seems to me to suggest that it was motivated by Judaism.

Some are accusing the Orthodox Jewish political party Shas for inciting hatred although they have condemned the shooting saying:

Shas released a statement following the shooting in which it called for the attacker "to be found and tried. Murder is of course against the Torah's path and every attack is a contravention of the religion of Israel."

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1248277947062&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

You Suck!

indough wrote: »

but it has nothing to do with this, so is irrelevant in this thread and has no reason to be brought up

Not so fast, Chances are this attack was mounted by Religious extremists, I admit I am speculating, but I can't think of many other groups who may be responsible. It may turn out to be a single individual but once again I would be surprised if religion weren't a motivation. There's a history of this in Israel, hell, a prime minister was even killed by an extremist.

Given that Netenetenetenyahoo is politically aligning with the extreme religious right and giving these people a platform, their religious intolerance of Palestinians is no different to their intolerance of anything else that doesn't fit their world view, homosexuality included. They are being encouraged and empowered, and it's no surprise to see that their scope has broadened imho.

indough

an awful lot of assumptions there, and even if youre right it still has nothing to do with the israeli-palestinian conflict, so like i said there is no point in bringing it up here unless you are comfortable with exploiting this situation to suit your own political agenda

You Suck!

indough wrote: »

an awful lot of assumptions there, and even if youre right it still has nothing to do with the israeli-palestinian conflict,

The same religious extremists are the ones whose settlements are currently holding up the peace process. I think that's something to do with it....

indough wrote: »

so like i said there is no point in bringing it up here unless you are comfortable with exploiting this situation to suit your own political agenda

Meh, if you wish to accuse of me of such. :rolleyes:

It's not as if religious extremists haven't murdered gay people in other countries....

philologos

You Suck! wrote: »

The same religious extremists are the ones whose settlements are currently holding up the peace process. I think that's something to do with it....

Orthodox Jewish opinion differs on the State of Israel. The Neutra Karta consider the existence of a Jewish State to be in violation of Torah law, whereas other Orthodox Jews feel the need to settle the land of Israel and for Jews to live in all parts of that land. It's not as simplex as to say Orthodox Jew = pro-settlement.

You Suck!

Jakkass wrote: »

Orthodox Jewish opinion differs on the State of Israel. The Neutra Karta consider the existence of a Jewish State to be in violation of Torah law, whereas other Orthodox Jews feel the need to settle the land of Israel and for Jews to live in all parts of that land. It's not as simplex as to say Orthodox Jew = pro-settlement.

I've heard of those guys, not to mention some zionists who are uncomfortable with the way Israel was formed. But I never equated Orthodox with Extremist which is in a class of its own.

Just to note:

In 2005, an ultra-Orthodox Jew stabbed three participants of the gay pride parade. He was later sentenced to 12 years in prison.

Once again, I'll be surprised if this is unrelated to the undercurrent of religious extremism that exists in Israel.

Sharpshooter

You Suck! wrote: »

In other news, Palestinians rejoiced at a brief respite from targeting by Jewish extremists...

Keep on topic.

rainbow kirby

Jakkass wrote: »

Appalling. Nobody should die as a result of a disagreement like this. So yes OP, it does nerve me.

Edit: Even if you do not consider homosexuality to be acceptable, or if you disagree to the gay lifestyle, there is no valid excuse for the taking of life.

Wow, this might be the first time I've ever agreed with Jakkass on something...

PrivateEye

Full solidarity to the Israeli LGBT community, I hope broader society gets behind them to help deal with the event.Not easy for a young person to grow up in such an environment.

----

Also, I love how even though this is a very serious thread, you still get After Hours 'Hurr Durr-ism' from people saying outlandish things looking for a thanks or a cheap laugh. You're all so edgey.

Dave147

Malty_T wrote: »

Unfortunately I differ in opinion here, but I need to chose the words carefully, so just in case I get it wrong, I have absolutely no problem with folks who are either homosexuals or bisexuals and mean no offence to either group.

I believe it is natural, if it wasn't why are there so many of them in abundance in society,not to mention other animals? They are there for some reason. If you believe in evolution,(I certainly do), then the argument could be made that in order to decide what's was the best course of survival nature experimented with all possible ways : hence gays are and always have been a natural process of life.Yes I agree with you, that life as it exists today would not be possible if everyone were gay, but it could still exist who knows? Remember, it is possible, that it could have so easily gone the other way and gay's, single parents, became the abundant type in nature. Nobody, in this world is born the same, nobody's perfect, the idea of perfection really is in my opinion utter farce. Evolution decides what's best, and in the case of our reality that was heterosexuality, however nobody can guarantee that things will always remain the same.

As a side note, women were deemed unnatural too; up until about the nineteenth century (not that long ago is it?) men were seen as the sole prime creators of human life.
Gays, like women,I believe are natural in our society we just haven't realised it fully yet.

As for this shooting, shocking and sad as it may have been I hope that something good comes from it. Now, I know hoping that the pontiff accepts homosexuality would be probably be pushing it, but who knows maybe world leaders acknowledging that gays, are like us : equals.
Still awful on the families, especially if the parent's weren't fully supportive of their child being gay, or worse still never knew.

I respect your opinion, and you brought it across well but it's probably not going to change my stance on whether it's natural or not. I can see where you're coming from so I guess it just depends on how either one of us defines 'natural' in this case. I don't think it really matters anyway because as I said before I have nothing against gay people, they aren't doing any harm to me, more importantly it would be nice to see the whole attitude of the world change accordingly because this attack is sickening.

kraggy

Manic Moran wrote: »

Didn't they call it a war against Hamas? Wars are supposed to be boodbaths, calling them one is a bit redundant.

NTM

Carrying out a war against Hamas is entirely different to murdering and torturing civilians and using innocent women and children as shields.

Sexy

Dave147 wrote: »

I respect your opinion, and you brought it across well but it's probably not going to change my stance on whether it's natural or not. I can see where you're coming from so I guess it just depends on how either one of us defines 'natural' in this case. I don't think it really matters anyway because as I said before I have nothing against gay people, they aren't doing any harm to me, more importantly it would be nice to see the whole attitude of the world change accordingly because this attack is sickening.

A safe stance would be to allow people to be themselves sexually! That is how I am reading it but my friends have said I am a bit too liberal

Tom10

Sexy wrote: »

A safe stance would be to allow people to be themselves sexually! That is how I am reading it but my friends have said I am a bit too liberal

Haha how can ya be too liberal

Sexy

Tom10 wrote: »

Haha how can ya be too liberal

I am all for everyone to enjoy their sexuality as long as it in consensual

Gay sex, bestiality, axillism, sacofricosis n stuff like that don't bother me, each to their own I say!

dvpower

Sexy wrote: »

I am all for everyone to enjoy their sexuality as long as it in consensual

Gay sex, bestiality, axillism, sacofricosis n stuff like that don't bother me, each to their own I say!

Consensual bestiality?

Gummy Panda

dvpower wrote: »

Consensual bestiality?

1 moo for yes, 2 moos for no

Reflector

procure11 wrote: »

I am a christain and I am very proud of it ....but I would never condone killing another human being because I disagree with his/her choices in life...but most importantly I have absolutely no right to destroy what I cannot create...most especially in the name of God...that would be pretty daft...

Where I like your sentiment it is wrong for you to indicate that homosexuality is a choice, it is not a choice someone makes like becoming a christian,

DonJose wrote: »

This could get nasty, there are rumours going around Tel Aviv about a group of gays seeking revenge, roadblocks have been set up in the search for suicide bummers.

terrible joke

Wagon wrote: »

How come people got banned for saying they think being gay wasn't natural? It's their opinion, whether you agree with it or not, does it actually warrent a banning?

Crap thing to happen over there though.

well those who were banned were so because they made offensive comments.

ninjasurfer1 wrote: »

No, it's not.
Just 'cos you put it in large font, doesn't make it fact!!
You're entitled to your opinion, others are entitled to theirs.

Back on topic, the shooter is scum!! Live and let live!!

There is no opinion here, Something being natural is a human construct. There is a lot of things that the human race does both good and bad, things are neither natural or unnatural they just are. Technology/war/murder/sexulity/jealousy/human rights/compassion. As a gay man I find it so annoying to be called unnatural.

philologos

Reflector wrote: »

Where I like your sentiment it is wrong for you to indicate that homosexuality is a choice, it is not a choice someone makes like becoming a christian

Scientifically we currently don't know whether homosexuality is biologically predetermined or not. The possibility is left open. You may disagree with that as a matter of opinion, but I don't think that people should deride people for not sharing the same opinion as you. We are free thinking creatures.

Reflector wrote: »

well those who were banned were so because they made offensive comments.

That's not a good enough reason IMO. Offensive comments are made in here every single day of the week concerning peoples religious beliefs amongst other things. Yet people who have religious beliefs learn to grow a thick skin in relation to these comments. Other people need to do the same.

Irrespective of whether or not people are banned, people have to understand that not everyone thinks the same way you do.

Reflector wrote: »

There is no opinion here, Something being natural is a human construct. There is a lot of things that the human race does both good and bad, things are neither natural or unnatural they just are. Technology/war/murder/sexulity/jealousy/human rights/compassion. As a gay man I find it so annoying to be called unnatural.

Indeed it is a human construct. Likewise something being "offensive" is a human construct, and a highly subjective one at that.

I don't think peoples opinions on homosexuality justify killing or any form of violence however. Infact I don't think it warrants any form of incitement to hatred either.

Wagon

Reflector wrote: »

well those who were banned were so because they made offensive comments.

Oh i don't know. I think saying they think being gay isn't natural is simply an opinion. I don't agree with it myself (i think someone being gay is fine) but i still dont think it would warrent being offensive.

Something like: "kill all gays" would be something i see as offensive but luckily, this is boards and not Stormfront.

Ah well, its my opinion so to hell with it.

Itsdacraic

They were probably asked if they wanted a cap in the ass and they replied "yes please"

I.J.

Wagon wrote: »

Oh i don't know. I think saying they think being gay isn't natural is simply an opinion. I don't agree with it myself (i think someone being gay is fine) but i still dont think it would warrent being offensive.

It is a negative opinion of homosexuality and is therefore in my opinion homophobic and homophobia IS NOT to be tolerated. Are those people who express that opinion aware of the serious damage they inflict on fellow people? Are you not aware of the suffering the spread of this mis-informed opinion causes? The young people in Tel Aviv who were murdered and wounded were at a support group which to me means they were trying to make sense of their lives and move forward for a brighter future. Nobody chooses to be homosexual. It is the natural course of nature. It is unnatural to deny homosexuality because you are therefore suppressing the individuals natural path. A path which is of no danger to anybody.