DART+ (DART Expansion)

GerardKeating

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122876524#Comment_122876524

Seperate "projects" makes sense, why should ony NIMBY derail everything, compartmentalising it protect it.

PlatformNine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122875856#Comment_122875856

Like others have said, it would be adding more onto an already massive project. But additionally, new stations just aren't in the scope of D+, it isn't what the project is meant to be. The project is meant to address the overall frequency and capacity issues present in the system, as well as the standardisation and decarbonisation of the network.

It is supposed to allow additional stations in the network, as well as hopefully increasing demand for said new stations and the existing staitons. The only "new" stations we are even getting through D+ are Spencer dock which is just replacing Docklands as a better interchange and higher capacity station. And Heuston West which is really redevopment of Platform 10 to allow PPT services to better interchange with the IC services and the main Heuston station.

Hopefully as D+ progresses and/or completes, we will see demand increase for the list of proposed new stations on the Maynooth and Kildare lines. As well I think we might see some demand for a new Rathnew station.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122875326#Comment_122875326

It's already partially screened off anyway.

I've had a quick read, and it seems it poses challenges with overhead line equipment, due to the fact it crosses the tracks at an angle. So possibly needed to be repositioned somewhat.

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122876633#Comment_122876633

Sorry but you can't build a suburban rail network without having a lot of stations and D+ is intended to expand the Dart network first and foremost. Expanding the suburban network without putting stations in is a crazy and misguided objective, especially when the new stations only represents a fraction of the total project scope. These aren't huge projects by international standards… all we're doing is electrifying a few lines.

Idbatterim

Does anyone have a link to a map, with what the new dart network will look like and new stations etc indicated on it?

ArcadiaJunction

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122876531#Comment_122876531

I had not considered the NIMBY nuclear option so I get it now. Add Cabra and Kylemore later now seems clearer to me.

CatInABox

As was pointed out to me recently, the RO process allows for judicial reviews to only apply to one part of the RO, which is different to the rest of the planning process, so that's not really an excuse here.

PlatformNine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122877126#Comment_122877126

I get where you coming from, but at its core, what you want from D+ is fundemantally not what the programme is meant to be. And I also understand why you might disagree with that approach to D+, but I think it misses the point of the programme.

The D+ programme is meant to above all, fix many of the core infrastructure issues with the GDA network. The expansion of the network is still an important part of the programme, but the point is to expand by improving/fixing the core infrastructure. It is not to build a suburban network with new stations and/or lines. As far as stations and lines go, we have a decent suburban rail network, its far from the best and there are stations that we should see added to the network within the next few years, but it's functional. However there are key pieces of critical infrastructure missing, and without it the network can't expand or improve.

All of that said, I keep saying "core infrastructure" but I don't really say what that means. There is a lot more missing from the network than just OHLE electrification, and saying D+ is only "electrifying a few lines" is just incorrect. D+ is so much more than that, there are a number of improvements required to make the higher capacity and higher frequency network remotely possible. They are all part of what makes D+ such a large project and why it was split up into multiple parts. There will be a new depot to support the fleet to make the expanded network possible. The resignalling and LC closures are a large part of what makes the frequency possible, which for context Connolly is supposed to have the capacity for 20tph without even four-tracking. And in a lot of places with LCs closures a separately graded crossing will be built. Then likely one of the biggest improvement will be the completion of four-tracking HH-Heuston, which will allow the section to support 23 tph, and is vital for future improved IC services as well as allowing the line to have a decent commuter service.

OisinCooke

Any word on how the separate report for the depot is coming along, if it even is at all…?

L1011

As mentioned, Geoff Marshall was at the media day

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-EGaW26pqA

loyatemu

lots of fancy tech there, I look forward to Irish Rail turning it all off because they haven't maintained it at all.

Sam Russell

Will they be testing them on the current Dart services? And when?

p_haugh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122879085#Comment_122879085

I had read that initial testing will be completed under night possession between Inchicore & Hazlehatch (so running off the batteries), before they start to test them on the electrified network. Cant remember where I read that though

goingnowhere

Inchicore - Hazelhatch

gjim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122877126#Comment_122877126

DART+ extends the coverage of the metro heavy rail system from 50km to 150km. It adds 29 stations (by my rough count) to the DART network. A total of 60 stations over 150km is not an insubstantial system even by European standards.

The SBahn systems in Munich, Berlin, Zurich, etc. were all constructed piecemeal over a period of decades - since the early 1970s in most cases. It is the very opposite of "crazy" that we're not attempting to build 50 years of infrastructure in a single rail project.

SeanW

Just saw that video today, and it addresses one of the major bugbears I have about trains in this part of the world - why trains have a "step up" to board the train from the platform. In other parts of the world, level boarding is something that has been worked out a long time ago and I didn't understand the problem here.

It seems that given Irish (most likely UK also) platform heights, are not high enough to put a flat floor over the bogies and still be level with platforms. These Xtrapolis sets get around that problem by having the floor vary in height, there's a small ramp for people to cross over the bogies between the cars, but where the doors are the floor is lower to meet the platforms dead level. A big improvement, to be sure.

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122879437#Comment_122879437

Zurich’s system has been a series of links, as was Vienna’s, but Munich’s S-Bahn really was a “big bang” - a central tunnel was built to connect the existing lines that converged on the city’s main station with the existing lines that converged on the eastern station, and suddenly the city had a complete commuter rail system from one side to the other. There have been extensions and new stretches (the largest were to Munich’s distant airport, first on the S8 line then on S1; and more recently, electrification of the Dachau-Altomunster stretch to create a branch of line S2), but most of the outer “arms” are rail lines that existed pre-1960.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122880451#Comment_122880451

We have some of the highest platform heights around. Significant amounts of places in Europe have steps up to every train; possibly with one low floor section somewhere along the train for people who need level boarding.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122880451#Comment_122880451

I thought the most significant feature was the step that extends to the platform meaning an end to 'Mind the step!'

However, the whole design appears to be a huge improvement over the current trains, particularly the through passage from one end to the other. It has been well thought out.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122881597#Comment_122881597

It really does seem like a fantastically well thought out train and looks to have brilliant customer friendly features.

I'd also point out the very large windows, those windows combined with the through passage and bright modern LED lighting should make for a much brighter train and one that feels more modern, large and safer.

Everything about the interior feels bright and airy and I think passengers really like that.

The USB charging is also great, as is the extra legroom. Seems really well thought out and designed, I'm super excited to ride on them.

PlatformNine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122879437#Comment_122879437

I don't think its technically part of D+, but D+ is what will allow the DART extensions to Wicklow town adding 2 more stations, which is supposed to start in 2027.

If they also extend the DART network to Kilcock and Sallins as proposed in GDATS 2022-2042 it would add another 2 stations. Though unlike Wicklow DART services I don't think we have been given a timeline, but I don't expect the extensions to happen before D+ W and SW are completed.

ArcadiaJunction

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122879067#Comment_122879067

Potentially we might be looking at CIE Metrovic A and C classes on steroids with these. I hope everything works out and they are a success but man, we are being unloaded with a whole lot of complex and new high tech and in such huge numbers too.

I'm slightly nervous to be honest. But they are impressive and I hope they are fantastic in service.

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122881767#Comment_122881767

I think you mean Kilcock; Kilcoole is between Greystones and Wicklow so will get a Dart service when the Wicklow extension happens (though the station is in a terrible location).

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122881828#Comment_122881828

Alstom has been contracted to provide 15 years’ support on these train sets, including parts. That brings them up to the point where you'd expect a full refurbishment.

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122881828#Comment_122881828

stuff like the sensors informing the driver about when there's a wheelchair user onboard, and that info being used by the PIS at upcoming stations. Irish Rail can't even tell us how long an approaching train is currently. The interactive maps on the Tokyu units were turned off after a couple of years because IR couldn't get them working reliably. The platform displays in many stations spend most of their time scrolling "&nbsp… &nbsp…", the displays on the train frequently show the wrong destination, and so on and on.

Thunder87

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122879437#Comment_122879437

Saying Dart+ is adding any of this is disingenuous, these lines and every one of those stations already exist and are already used heavily by commuters every day. The tangible end result of Dart+ for users will be modern trains, increased frequencies on these existing lines (by some currently unknown amount) and some extra destinations that currently require changing trains, albeit at probably fairly low frequencies.

All very positive and worth investing in, but it's not some transformational project like adding a whole new corridor with dozens of new stations to the network would be

p_haugh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122881869#Comment_122881869

Irish Rail can't even tell us how long an approaching train is currently

To be fair, that's due to the antiquated signalling & on-train hardware used by IÉ. The realtime train "location" we currently see only gets updated when the train passes a signal block, and if there's issues displaying that, it defaults to the "scheduled" position of the train.

With the rollout of ECTS, that should go a long way towards fixing the issues with all of that. It does sound like they're finally putting more of a focus on accurate PIS data, but it will take a while to see the results of this investment.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122881990#Comment_122881990

If you look back at the introduction of the original Dart service 40 years ago, exactly the same could be said of the two coach trains going along the existing tracks from Howth to Bray. I would find it hard to find anyone who would consider that the original Dart was a failure now. The same was said of the Luas. Dart+ will be similar.

Shiny trains will help with that success.

Thunder87

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122882110#Comment_122882110

Who said anything about failure? All I'm saying is not to oversell what Dart+ is, yes, it enables a lot more technically but from most end user's POV it's essentially nicer trains and increased frequencies on existing services (which is great) but it's not some transformational project adding 100km of rail and dozens of stations.

All of that already exists and it's only because of Irish Rail doing a terrible job of marketing and integrating the western lines into the network in the past that people generally don't think of them when having a mental picture of the city's rail network, there was nothing stopping them branding the Maynooth and Celbridge lines as Dart 20 years ago

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122882000#Comment_122882000

I meant the literal length of the train so I know where to stand on the platform. Irish Rail know how long each train is but they don't supply that info to the PIS. I was on the RER in Paris last year and they told you the length of the train and how busy it was; this is not new technology.