DART+ (DART Expansion)

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122868920#Comment_122868920

Battery technology hasn’t come as far as you think. The Drumm train was ahead of its time. He invented the first commercially viable Nickel-Zinc battery chemistry; after Drumm, nobody else developed Nickel-Zinc batteries to market until the early 1970s. The broader family of Nickel chemistries (Ni-Cd, Ni-MH) were the dominant rechargeable battery type until the late 1990s, when (relatively) safe Lithium chemistries started to appear in mobile phones. There’s really only been one technological leap since Drumm’s time, and that’s Lithium ion batteries.

Drumm’s batteries occupied 270 litres of space and weighed 13.5 tonnes per car - there’s no figure for energy capacity, but they were capable of driving a two-car train at 88 km/h for 130 km in tests. However, the Drumm railcars were never used for peak-time services, so there’s a suggestion that there was a power deficit compared to steam-hauled trains: that 130 km range would not be possible with a train full of passengers.

[I found the details about the Drumm trains here: 1949: The Drumm Trains - General Chat - Irish Railway Modeller ]

So, what’s a modern equivalent? Taking a low-ball estimate of 125 Wh/kg for the less dense LiFePO4 chemistry that I imagine these trains use, the 840 kWh of batteries on the new trains will weigh at most 6.7 tonnes for five cars (1.3 tonnes per car). With that, they can drive a five-car train for 80 km, with a maximum speed of 145 km/h. LiFePO4 has a much higher lifetime in terms of charge/discharge cycles than Ni-Zn, and it’s far less expensive: it was the cost of procuring additional batteries that forced the Drumm trains to be retired in 1949. So, an eighth of the weight, more than twice the power output, at least four times the operating lifetime, at least a quarter of the price. That’s about the leap in technology you’d expect in 100 years.

That 80 km range for the new trains is not a statement of where technology is; it is only a statement of what was needed for these trains on this route by the customer. Paying for something you will never use is fine for private motorists who have only one purchase to justify, but IÉ is ordering sixty of these carriages, and IÉ gets audited. When you have to fight for every euro from a government that is often hostile to you, the last thing you need is some rural backbencher shouting about how you blew ten million or so ordering batteries that were four or five times the size you actually needed.

L1011

ABP file has 13/11/2024 as an update date for the SW Railway Order but no sign of any documents yet.

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122868892#Comment_122868892

well I meant the Wicklow improvements - they were supposed to be published this month but they appear to have been pushed to the new year now. As well as the Bray-Greystones changes I think it will include work to enable the Wicklow Town Dart service.

riddlinrussell

Even going beyond the BEMUs intended use on The DART network to potential future uses in Cork/Limerick/Galway commuter routes I can't see an 80km range being a limiting factor.

Regarding the DART south level crossings. Is there a legal minimum amount of time that the gates have to be open to motor traffic?

Try and get permission for a Pedestrian/cycling bridge/tunnel at each LC and close the gates 20 hrs a day to achieve higher frequency. People stop using the roads as through routes and you present formally closing them as a fait accompli when everyone is used to the new arrangement.

bk

It makes a great deal of sense to separate DART+ South into separate projects, to de-risk the projects, so that at least some of it gets done, even if parts of it end up getting held up in ABP/JR.

I have to say well done to Irish Rail for taking this approach with DART+, breaking it up into separate projects and RO submissions and even the BEMU's helps to really de-risk projects and makes sure at least some of the projects get done.

cgcsb

I believe that is the current thinking. Once the West level crossings are closed and the Bray-Greystones section is improved, the south side level crossings will just have gates down continously from 6am to 10pm and then the McDowels of the area will be calling for bridges/underpasses and it can sound like their idea.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122866092#Comment_122866092

Even the extra cost of these bemu's now is sickening to me.

I'd disagree on this, the extra cost of batteries is likely relatively trivial in the overall cost of a major project like DART+.

And as goingnowhere says, if they end up using those batteries as lineside BESS, they could even end up paying for themselves (think charging up the batteries overnight on cheap off peak electricity prices and then using that electricity during the morning peak hours, can be substantial savings on electricity costs, that could very quickly pay for the batteries).

I'm actually very excited about the opportunities this technology brings. While it is unfortunate that it is necessary, I think it is a clever engineering work around and could allow IR to rollout greatly improved commuter services across the country much faster then if they had to wait for OHLE to be done.

Just picture, frequent commuter trains operating around Cork, Limerick, etc. in addition to greatly expanded Dublin services, it is a very exciting time IMO.

Crakepottle?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122868940#Comment_122868940

Don't think Dart South West has been approved yet.

DoctorPan

Approval has been granted for SW's Railway Order.

https://www.pleanala.ie/en-ie/case/316119

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122869231#Comment_122869231

Excellent post, just on this part:

There’s really only been one technological leap since Drumm’s time, and that’s Lithium ion batteries.

Over the last 5 years we have seen big developments with LFP and Sodium Ion batteries entering production.

Yes, I know you mentioned LiFePO4 (LFP) and it is still of course a Lithum Ion chemistry, but it is a big departure from NMC and is making major waves over the last 3 years or so, so I think worth highlighting.

Sodium Ion is also a very big deal and entered production over the last year or so, but more for BESS applications then trains.

But interestingly the "battery world" has been on fire with the news that CATL has made some major breakthroughs with Solid State batteries. They aren't production ready yet, but they are aiming for 2027.

If CATL can get solid state into production and at an economic price, it will be a staggering change, much higher densities, much faster charge times and much longer lifetimes.

We could even look at such solid state batteries for decarbonising the secondary rail lines, rather then using Hydrogen as previously suggested.

Of course we have to wait and see if solid state is real, many have made announcements in the past that came to nothing, but CATL is different. They tend not to announce future tech unless they are sure it can go into production. For those who don't know, they are by far the largest battery manufacturer in the world and have more people working on battery R&D then every other company combined! They are the juggernaut of the battery world.

p_haugh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122869636#Comment_122869636

Two conditions that jump out to me in the Inspectors report - Heuston West is to have Lifts, and that the Inchicore works footbridge is to be omitted. Not sure how IÉ will feel about the 2nd one!

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122869642#Comment_122869642

I’ll concede Sodium, which is very promising, but LFP is, as you say, still a Lithium ion chemistry - it was first commercialised in the late 2000s, as a replacement for lead-acid in safety-critical applications (no Cobalt makes it the least combustible of all the Li-ion chemistries), but LFP initially had poor current delivery which made it unsuitable for high-power use until recent refinements.

Solid-state lithium batteries are like Irish mainline electrification: next decade, we promise! But in fairness, there is now so much investment in the area that something has to come out soon. It’s a huge leap, but the risk for the technology is that the sodium chemistry gets there first, and sodium will be so much cheaper that it’ll win out.

I haven’t seen any confirmation of the exact type of battery installed on these BEMUs, but my gut feeling is that it’s LiFePO4, as space is not a great a concern, but fire safety, lifetime and high cycle count are. Heavy rail applications sit in that grey area between “vehicle” and “fixed storage”, so technologies from either camp could be of use.

I did say there were few breakthroughs, but sometimes all you need is a comeback: the big interest for large-scale stationary storage, Air-Iron, dates from the 1890s. I can see more stationary battery storage deployed at substations in DC railways to improve stability and reliability (and allow greater use of cheap but intermittent energy sources)

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122869828#Comment_122869828

Yes, a lot of the battery technologies aren't really new as such, many have been experimented with in labs for decades.

The difficulty has been getting them out of the lab and into an actual usable form and most importantly into economic mass production.

As you say LFP has been in labs for decades, but it had various issues with performance that had to be worked on and developed to the point where it is now where it is actually useful, but more importantly CATL and BYD building massive factories to churn out insane numbers of LFP cells so they can be used in cars and BESS was the final step.

Same with Sodium Ion, now gone into mass production. We will have to see if CATL can do their magic with solid state and get it into mass production too.

Yes, I've looked everywhere to see what battery tech the new DART+ trains will use, but no luck, all the articles just same "Lithium Ion", which could be a few different chemistries.

One other option it could be is LTO, Lithium Titanate Oxide, it is commonly used in other battery trains, like in the UK the new class 777 uses it. Lower energy density and higher cost then LFP, but they have very fast charging times, much longer lifecycles and are safer.

pk1991

Dart+ South West approved by ABP

Good evening, Please see press release below in relation the DART+ South West Railway Order. 
An Bord Pleanála approves DART+ South West Railway OrderProject will quadruple customer capacity and deliver electrification of route from Hazelhatch & Celbridge to Heuston and South City via Phoenix Park Tunnel An Bord Pleanála have approved the Railway Order application to extend the electrified DART network from Hazelhatch & Celbridge to Heuston Station and the South city via Phoenix Park Tunnel.  The application was lodged in March 2023. DART+ South West will provide a greatly enhanced and more sustainable transport option for communities in Hazelhatch & Celbridge, Adamstown, Clondalkin & Fonthill, Parkwest & Cherry Orchard, Drumcondra and at a new station at Heuston West.  This will be achieved through infrastructure works resulting in higher frequencies and electrification, and new trains, to increase passenger capacity from the current 5,000 to 20,000 per hour per direction.  The DART+ Programme is a key element of the NTA Greater Dublin Area Transport Strategy, 2022-2042. DART+ will facilitate sustainable mobility and development to enhance quality of life in our capital and its surrounding counties, through a series of fleet and infrastructure projects. The DART+ Programme is being delivered by Iarnród Éireann on behalf of NTA.     The planned infrastructure improvements include:

• 20km of electrification and re-signalling of the Hazelhatch & Celbridge Line to Heuston and the south city via Phoenix Park Tunnel.
• Construction of a new station at Heuston West to serve the community of Clancy Quay and Island Bridge.
• Four-tracking of the rail line from Park West & Cherry Orchard Station to Heuston to enhance capacity.
• All civil, bridge and ancillary works as necessary to accommodate the project.
• Upgrading of the Phoenix Park Tunnel.
• New electric DART carriages for the DART+ Programme will be deployed on Hazelhatch & Celbridge services.

The procurement process will now commence for the construction stage contracts.  Subject to funding being allocated it is anticipated that construction will commence in 2026.  Chief Executive of Iarnród Éireann Jim Meade said: “Today is a great day for the communities of North Kildare and South Dublin, the provision of DART services will transform commuting for the existing and new communities along this railway corridor. It will make travelling with us more sustainable, more frequent and more reliable. This is the second DART+ project to receive planning. DART+ West Railway Order was granted in July of this year. DART+ Coastal North Railway Order Application was lodged last September & South will follow. The DART+ programme, when delivered will truly revolutionise commuting in the Greater Dublin Area and assist in me

Zebra3

We’ve come along way from the PPT being unusable.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122869684#Comment_122869684

Can you elaborate on the Inchicore footbridge, without me having to read all the documents?
Are they talking about getting rid of the khyber pass?

p_haugh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122872474#Comment_122872474

Yep, the inspector ruled it is to be omitted from the approval.

PlatformNine

https://www.pleanala.ie/en-ie/case/320164

I noticed on the ABP page for D+ north it says it is due to be decided by 03/02/2025. If all goes well, does that mean it would be approved by that date and D+ North could start construction in 2026? Also at this rate would this mean D+ North will be approved before D+ South even starts public consultation?

Sam Russell

I think the original plan to remove the Merrion Gates and replace them with a bridge/underpass through the carparks of the Queen of Peace church and Merrion Hall diverting traffic off the sea front and onto Merrion Road should be done as a stand alone project.

This would possibly allow the closure of Sydney Parade gates, or at least for busy times. That would leave Sandymount, Serpentine, and Lansdowne gates as the only ones to be dealt with some other way.

Ben D Bus

That will be somewhat annoying for staff in Inchicore who walk down there to get the bus!

I'll read it later but was there a reason given for not renewing the bridge?

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122872656#Comment_122872656

Thanks. I'll have a proper read over it. I can't understand what amenities need protecting from a private footbridge.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122873623#Comment_122873623

The decision due date is more of a 'ha-ha' sort of a due date, it won't ever be achieved

Ben D Bus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122874378#Comment_122874378

You can see into peoples back gardens from the existing bridge. Maybe that's it? Although that would be easy enough to cover off in a rebuild.

murphaph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122874378#Comment_122874378

They have to have some bizarre conditions in there otherwise it wouldn't seem like a genuine ABP report.

outlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122874361#Comment_122874361

IE could probably build a private pedestrian underpass for staff. Call it DART+ Underground!

ArcadiaJunction

"20km of electrification and re-signalling of the Hazelhatch & Celbridge Line to Heuston and the south city via Phoenix Park Tunnel."

While this is great to see all this, the station at the old cement terminal in Cabra should be done during these works.

Ben D Bus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122875856#Comment_122875856

There seems to be an expectation that Cabra and Kylemore are both on the cards and will be applied for in due course. Whether applications could be approved in time to carry out the works at the same or effectively as an extension of the project, I don't know.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122875856#Comment_122875856

Was decided on too late to go in to the RO, would have delayed it. Probably going to go for conventional planning permission instead.

Ditto Kylemore Road.

gjim

Yeah - no benefit to making projects bigger than they need to be - it just increases the risk of failure. DART+ is big enough as it is. The theoretical ideal situation would be to have many small and independent projects.

This is not possible for stuff like route electrification, new fleet procurement, supporting depots and other facilities - which need to be coordinated so can only realistically be done in a single big project.

But no need at all to make this project any bigger when stuff like adding individual stations could and should be done as small independent projects. Big projects cause big bottlenecks as we've seen with ABP over the last few years.

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122876368#Comment_122876368

Instead, let's just stretch out what should be one fairly big project into several projects over a much broader timeframe.