DART+ (DART Expansion)

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122838254#Comment_122838254

Which you'd note is the first of the three outcomes I suggested in my post.

But there are zero plans to, as part of the DART+ infra works at least.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122838259#Comment_122838259

I am in the let's get the lines built and fix the ancillary issues later camp.

riddlinrussell

I'd be in the, station accessibility (including toilets) should be a separate project that is constantly ongoing alongside any major infra and so shouldn't be held up by it, camp. Plenty of, especially, outer suburb stations with either existing (closed) toilets or existing (closed) ticket offices that a staff toilet likely exists in that could be reconfigured to have modern facilities without anything but a bit of internal planning work and a funding stream.

Also in that category should be increasing number of accesses to each platform where suitable at stations.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122838778#Comment_122838778

There is a station accessibility thing going on, e.g. Maynooth is getting a new bridge with lifts and apparently a proper disabled access toilet - currently there's a big room with a few grab bars and a normal toilet - but its not a proper project as far as I can tell.

KrisW1001

It is a “proper project”: Iarnród Éireann News: Major Accessibility upgrades - Maynooth, Hazelhatch and Newbridge Stations

There was a four-year project, now coming to an end, called “The Big Lift” to add lifts and accessibility improvements at 52 stations across the country. I suspect a follow-on project will be planned once IÉ can get funding for it.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122839269#Comment_122839269

That's just a press release for the Maynooth works + the Hazelhatch and Newbridge bits of The Big Lift; there's nothing to suggest that there's an actual rolling programme of accessibility improvements (rather than just replacing existing faulty lifts).

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122839275#Comment_122839275

The Big Lift project is exactly that: a rolling programme of accessibility improvements - most of those 52 stations never had lifts. It also includes disabled-accessible toilets. The project’s been running for four years across the country, and is now reaching the end of its first phase. There’s no word on a second yet, but I think it’s pretty clear that IÉ wants to do it: ridership has increased every time they improved a station.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122839305#Comment_122839305

Where got lifts installed first time or indeed toilets (upgraded or new)?

I have only ever known that project as a replacement of existing lifts. Its also all Irish Rail have ever claimed it was doing.

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122839316#Comment_122839316

Cork Little Island never had lifts.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122839329#Comment_122839329

Not branded as part of the Big Lift project, or referred to as part of it by Irish Rail anywhere. Was actually there (staying in the Radisson) and no branding for Big Lift anywhere around; when its smothered over any of the replacements around Dublin.

So if there some coherent rolling upgrade project, it hasn't got a public name; and it doesn't appear to be delivering new toilets either.

Economics101

Some questions about the new DART+ units, especially the BEMU ones.

1. Battery range is 80 kms. AUtomobiles have ranges of 3 to 6 times that. And the rolling resistance of rail is much less, which gives greater scope for regenerative braking. Why is this? OK, a 5-car unit is about 100 times the weight pf a passemger car, but battery size and weight can also be correspondingly high.
2. Why are batteries roof-mounted? What effect does this have on C of G and stability? Why not underfloor batteries, using the space formerly taken up by Diesel engines?
3. The shared bogies between articulated carriages are strangely off-centre. There must be some very complicated suspension linkages: I'd like to see a diagram.

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122839345#Comment_122839345

I’m not going to pick through every station upgrade to see if you’re right or wrong, but I think that one of the Kerry line stations also had lifts put in where there were none before.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122838259#Comment_122838259

I spoke to an Dart+ engineer last year, who said public feedback revealed there wasn't a need for toilets on the trains, and that toilets at stations would be provided instead.

Some of the stations mentioned already have toilets, but they aren't publicly accessible anymore. So the infrastructure is there, and can be put into service. Maynooth has a single toilet, but it seems to work ok.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122839652#Comment_122839652

840kWh of battery per half length train (5 carriages) if I'm not mistaken.

To put that in perspective the Tesla Model 3 comes with 57 or 82kWh. So equivalent to 10 to 15 Model 3's, but then it is carrying 500 people.

I suppose the question would be why carry the weight of extra batteries and pay the cost of extra batteries if you aren't going to use it?

Keep in mind they have only 12 minutes to charge up in Drogheda, so perhaps their is a limit to how much charge you can deliver in that time.

Also if you add extra battery, all you are doing is adding extra weight to the train, which makes it less efficient, thus requiring more power to drive it, which costs more in terms of electricity used, but also might mean you need a larger and more costly battery storage system in Drogheda.

This is actually a sort of nice thing about EV trains, you are talking about a consistent route travelled, so you should be able to fairly accurately model how much battery you actually need, obviously taking into account different weather conditions and battery degradation over time and giving it a nice buffer. By comparison, with EV cars, people like having 500km of range, even though they are typically only travelling 40km per day.

Why are batteries roof-mounted? What effect does this have on C of G and stability? Why not underfloor batteries, using the space formerly taken up by Diesel engines?

Has this model of train ever have Diesel engines? They seem more like a modified EMU to me then a DMU, but I could be wrong. It is pretty normal to put batteries on the roof of trains and single decker buses. Likely easier to maintain and get on and off if need be, also easier to cool up their then under the train, batteries don't like too much heat and less worry about the batteries being penetrated by debris from the tracks or if you hit something. Also the electrical gear for the OHLE is up there.

PlatformNine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122837186#Comment_122837186

Ah so the third order will be for replacing the 8100s? I know Jim Meade said that it was supposed to get placed before the end of the year but I guess that has been pushed back? Eitherway its good to hear that they aren't pushing their luck with the 10 year extension.

KrisW1001

@bk: “Has this model of train ever have Diesel engines?”

Yes, but I get the feeling from that article that it’s not a normal offering: Mexico opens the Tren Maya tourist line with Alstom X’trapolis DMUs

thomasj

Just seen this outside Clonsilla station

Zebra3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122849520#Comment_122849520

Doesn’t say for where. 😂😂😂

thomasj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122849559#Comment_122849559

🤣🤣🤣 Fair point ! Might have been a north Dublin placard misplaced !

OisinCooke

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122849520#Comment_122849520

Is this the reality do we think? AN off-peak service pattern of 6tph per direction…? I'd heard somewhere (although my transport-idealistic imagination could have made this up) that on the Maynooth Line, and indeed other future DART lines, that service frequency will reach a train every 5 minutes during the peak… I presume however that this includes non-stop InterCitys, and so the only route where we can realistically hope for 12 trains per hour is the segregated Hazelhatch-Islandbridge Jnct route. Still though it stands to reason that all 4 DART lines could have this frequency, or something close enough to it in the morning peak. I do hope that 6 tph is the minimum starting frequency on all lines at the very least.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122849520#Comment_122849520

Can't see the small print there. 😂

Where exactly is it placed? There's guidelines for canvassing on Irish Rail property.

PlatformNine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122849949#Comment_122849949

It could be a few things. Not promising more than they can deliver, 12tph is just the max capacity not necessarily what they will schedule. The signs aren't referencing D+ West electrification but a push for an interim increase that I believe is already supposed to happen as 29Ks are cascaded. Or it could be referencing the planned frequency to/from Maynooth not the whole line (12tph includes Maynooth, M3, and Sligo services).

Or what I personally think, its simply a line that sounds good. I doubt most people know the details about D+ other than it means better service, if they are even aware of the programme.

thomasj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122850064#Comment_122850064

🤣 It's outside Clonsilla station just before you cross the pedestrian bridge leading into the station.

thomasj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122849949#Comment_122849949

if memory serves me correct the maximum services allocated to the line were were:

3 tph Maynooth/GCD/Bray

3 tph Maynooth/Spencer Dock

4 tph M3 Parkway/Spencer Dock

also a train ph from Longford/Sligo to Connolly

The Black Oil

Construction and delivery marketing video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8R_1M1i-p1g

Praetorian

I have massive reservations about these battery electric hybrids. I'm a VW id4 user and can already see range degradation on a 1.5 year old car. We should be just electrifying the lines fully and now or ASAP and not bothering with this hybrid BS!

Have we any idea what top speed these units can do and what acceleration / braking will be like when on the grid / vs on battery power?

thomasj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122849949#Comment_122849949

Sorry had to come back to this , was thinking about it for the off-peaks

So for Maynooth/m3 line, i'd say it'll be something like this

Maynooth Connolly GCD Bray - 30 minute frequency, 2 trains per hour (max allows for 3 per hour)

Maynooth Spencer Dock - 30 minute frequency , 2 trains per hour (max allows for 3 per hour)

M3 Parkway Spencer Dock - 30 minute frequency , 2 trains per hour (max allows for 4 per hour)

so that would work out at 6 trains per hour (maybe add a Longford train for good measure) 10 minute average

For Hazelhatch, i personally think it might be something like this

Hazelhatch Connolly GCD - 30 minute frequency , 2 trains per hour (max allows for 3 per hour)

Hazelhatch Spencer Dock - 30 minute frequency , 2 trains per hour (max allows for 4 per hour)

Hazelhatch Heuston - 30 minute frequency , 2 trains per hour (max allows for 4 per hour)

again that would work out at 6 trains per hour and also the intercity/log distance trains that would stop at Hazelhatch

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122853420#Comment_122853420

Oh god, can you imagine if that's the service we end up with after all this …not exactly the high frequency network we were promised.

thomasj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122853557#Comment_122853557

i know . it wouldn't surprise me given the limited capacity that are still there with Connolly area

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122853275#Comment_122853275

Battery capacity is specified to allow for normal degradation in use, and the battery provision and cell management on these train is going to be a lot more sophisticated than on a passenger car like ID.4 that needed to meet a €25,000 bill-of-materials cost. Neither Alstom nor IÉ mentioned the battery chemistry in use - if it’s Lithium-ferrophosphate (LiFePO4, aka “LFP”), then capacity degradation over time is better than the chemistry used in your car.

Battery capacity per 5-car train is 840kWh, for a guaranteed autonomy of 80 km/h at the end of the battery's operating lifetime.

“This hybrid BS” is about decoupling the line electrification project from the removal of diesel trains from commuter routes. Diesels aren’t a great choice when you’re stopping frequently, and their poorer acceleration means that they delay DART services when they share tracks. Replacing those diesels with BEMUs means the acceleration characteristics of all commuter trains are brought into line, which means more frequent trains and a more reliable timetable.

Electrification is still happening, but thanks to the BEMUs, electrificaiton is not on the critical path for extending the DART to Drogheda.

Top speed is 145 km/h (fastest current DART stock is the 8500 at 110 km/h; 29000 commuter DMUs can hit 120 km/h; 22000 inter-city DMUs can do 160km/h). There's no acceleration spec so far, but the higher maximum speed would indicate more powerful traction motors and thus faster acceleration than current DART stock. There’s no reason to believe that these figures are different under battery use.