DART+ (DART Expansion)

Pete_Cavan

There will also be the option to change to the Green Line at Broombridge.

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119969834#Comment_119969834

Well there will be six trains serving the Loop Line from Broombridge station so anyone on a Spencer Dock bound Dart service coming from the west could just alight here and change for one of these six services.

thomasj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119970841#Comment_119970841

You mean Glasnevin? PPT trains don't serve Broombridge.

Youve got to remember that when it happens , metro trains will have you over in Tara Street from Glasnevin in less than 10 minutes so you could continue on the DART from there if you don't want to wait for a DART on the Maynooth line. And you'll also have O'Connell Street and Stephens green as options.

cgcsb

Progress seems stalled on the coastal and SW projects. SW railway order application was due to be submitted in early December. Costs on the DART+ project may have spiralled to the point that parts of DART+ could be axed.

Personally this doesn't bother me, there was never any real justification for high frequency trains to Hazelhatch, the project only really made sense with additional stations in populated areas like Ballyfermot and Cabra. Without them resources are better spent elsewhere. 4 tracking the line is a worthwhile project on its own though.

On coastal, extending electrification to Drogheda makes sense but not a priority. 3 or 4 tracking the Northern line and double tracking to Greystones isn't part of the DART+ scope anyway so not much benefit to be got. Closing the D4 level crossings can be done cheap, there's no need to package it with a mega project.

Maynooth DART maybe all that comes out of the current programme.

yer man!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120116839#Comment_120116839

I don't know about it not being worthwhile to do SW because it's not currently going through large populated areas. The area around Adamstown and Clondalkin is absolutely exploding with homes with many many more to come. The current level of infrastructure will definitely not be enough. The fact that this area is a major relief valve for the city as there is a lot of space is a reason in itself to do it.

Pete_Cavan

Quad-tracking the line as far as Heuston is a worthwhile project on its own but to not create two commuter and two separate intercity tracks and electrify at the same time would be beyond stupid.

If anything is cut from the scope, it'll be electrifying beyond the current DART system on the coastal line as originally envisaged. BEMUs will have to do for the foreseeable.

VeryOwl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120116839#Comment_120116839

These projects seem to be running in slow motion. And that's before they sink into the rubble of our planning system.

Both the projects are half-hearted anyway. DART Costal arguably makes the service even worse and as you suggest DART SW+ is focused on running a high capacity line through urban areas but not actually servicing them. I cannot get my head around why you would not want to maximise the existing infrastructure.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120118422#Comment_120118422

AFAIK cost is the reason for not opening new stations in populated areas on the SW line. To me the whole point of a public transport project is to provide a service to the travelling public. Irish Rail seem to disagree. Perhaps they think its about employing drivers?

4 track its self is useful to existing intercity and commuter services so should be done. I'm not sure what the point is in the rest of the DART+ SW line without opening stations on it. Seems bizarre in a country with Europe's worst public transport we'll be running trains every 10 minutes completely empty to semi rural areas.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120119300#Comment_120119300

It’s about putting in the transport infrastructure ahead of the development which is exactly how it should be done.

The service level doesn’t necessarily need to be every 10 minutes initially - that’s the planned capacity.

The new BusConnects routes that serve Hazelhatch, Adamstown, Kishogue, Fonthill and Parkwest stations will all facilitate increased usage of the railway, something you seem to keep ignoring.

There has already been and there is ongoing large developments in Celbridge, Newcastle, Adamstown and Lucan South that will feed into the rail service.

brianc89

I just saw this in the FAQ section of the Dart+ West page. Disappointing that they can't even consider a future station along the canal between North Strand and Ballybough (on the SW line to Spencer Dock)

Why can’t there be a DART station at Croke Park?

It is not proposed to provide a station at Croke Park under the DART+ West project.

A number of physical and operational constraints exist on the existing railway lines in the Ballybough area reduce the potential for an additional station, and these are presented below:

Physical Constraints

On the line to the north of Croke Park the railway is in a restricted area heading east of Ballybough Road towards Connolly and is elevated on a series of bridges and arches and not suited for location of a station. West of Ballybough Road the current gradient and tight curvature of the existing track geometry is not in accordance with standards for the provision of a station. Siting stations and platforms on tight curves introduces large stepping gaps and creates accessibility issues. Furthermore, the elevated nature of the existing railway, which is on a 4-metre-high embankment in this area, would raise issues regarding overlooking and visual impact on adjacent residential properties.

On the line to the south of Croke Park (adjacent to the Royal Canal), the railway east of Ballybough Road is in a tight cutting parallel to the Royal Canal alongside Clonmore Terrace where there is limited space to the railway boundary and is not a suitable place to locate a station. West of Ballybough Road and towards Coke Park there is again a steep gradient issue identified. Impact on surrounding properties would also be an issue with limited space available.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120116839#Comment_120116839

Are you basing this on anything concrete? ABP are swamped and dealing with recent management issues.

Any delay to RO is more likely linked to this rather than any fundamental issue with the project?...

On Dart+ SW, I can definitely see this being delayed a few years while other projects are prioritised. I reckon by the time it starts construction Cabra and Ballyfermot will also be included. Mary Lou lives in Cabra...

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120123403#Comment_120123403

Yes the NTA have stopped Irish Rail from submitting RO for the time being in light of the headline cost of Maynooth DART. Theyve also stopped coastal moving to public consultation. However there could be movement on South West by the end of the month.

Ronald Binge Redux

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120123787#Comment_120123787

Someone give the NTA a dose of Ducolax, for God's sake. It is the place where rail projects go to die, it seems from the evidence so far.

CatInABox

Saw this in the recently released transport plan:

https://imgur.com/a/9QHpUtf

Are these new stations on the Dart+ SW line new, or are they included in the current plan? I thought that Heuston West was the only confirmed new station.

cgcsb

DART SW currently has no plans for a cabra or ballyfermot station. That could change of course but would delay the submission of an RO application.

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120154799#Comment_120154799

Yeah, that's what I thought, so these are another project, pre 2042.

cgcsb

'Project' is a serious word. I'd say 'aspiration' with no real intention on delivery. As it stands the NTA, CIE, ABP and TII do not have the resources to deliver the projects planned up to 2032. So at present the post 2032 proposals are an impossible ask.

If the strategy were actually implemented in full (lol) it would be the most rapid transformation in infrastructure in the developed world in modern times (excluding back when they built metros with thousands of worker deaths). 20 years for everything in that strategy would be something that could be delivered in China because labour is free and there's no democracy in the planning process. It is simply not achievable in Ireland.

loyatemu

I don't think the strategy is that ambitious - most of the big projects in it are already underway and due to be finished by the early 2030s, i.e. Metrolink, Dart+, BusConnects and Fingluas. The other items due to be done by 2042 are Bray and Lucan Luas and Navan Rail plus a few new stations - they have 10 years to plan those and another 10 to build them, not wildly unrealistic. The extra Luas lines and Metro extensions are only projected to be planned by 2042. (don't get me started on their aim of increasing cycling share to a whole 12% by 2042).

Obviously I don't expect half of what's in there to actually happen but the scope is not unrealistic by international standards IMO.

AngryLips

Irish Rail earmarked Pelletstown Station as an 'immediate priority' in 2002 ...the station was opened in 2021. That says it all really.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120155112#Comment_120155112

Individual projects are not ambitious sure. I can't thing of any city that delivered anything close to what is proposed there in the space of 20 years. Can u think of any?

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120156096#Comment_120156096

Paris?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Paris_Express

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120156460#Comment_120156460

Fair, although Paris is a relative mega city with well resourced public bodies

MICKEYG

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120156787#Comment_120156787

So the example given does not count as it is well resoruced? The poster provided a clear example if what can be achieved.

The issue is simply ambition and political will. Nothing more, nothing less. It is classic Irish attitude of low expectations.

I had a row with a friend who said "Dublin is too small for a metro", ignoring the examples of other cities I gave him.

Another said that driverless cars would mean there would be no need for a metro. I explained that these cars would be the same size as existing cars but no luck

If Dublin had its own mayor with local taxes and a local budget we would have a chance.

Ronald Binge Redux

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120156096#Comment_120156096

I can't think of any other city that suffers from Projectus Interruptus more than Dublin. Bringing projects up to a turnkey state; abandoning them; redesigning them; and then lastminute.com objection that delay them further.

In terms of Dublin, the Dublin Rail Rapid Transit Study proposals have been there since 1975. Piecemeal redesigned versions of its proposals have been drip fed ever since in the intervening near half century. That isn't exactly an urgent timeline for the implementation of anything, and meanwhile on another thread posters ponder the daily collisions on the M50. If you want a good analogy of transport planning and implementation in the Greater Dublin Area, a wit (not me!) @boenau on Twitter came up with the following:

“Welcome to the restaurant. Let me tell you about our menu. Pizza is all-you-can-eat, and it’s free. Everything else costs $50 each, is a tiny portion, and takes 8 hours to prepare. So, what can I get you?”

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120159115#Comment_120159115

Oh don't get me wrong it can be done, and indeed should be done. I just doubt the likelihood of it happening. Paris is a mega city so plans of this scale are more likely to happen. Also there's a cultural gap, if the French government decides to cancel an investment in a particular area, the people only take minutes to correct their government, they will simply down tools get out and burn stuff until the government remembers that it is a servant of the people. In Ireland government can withhold services and infrastructure and Irish people will, at most, write a few shitposts on social media that only like minded people can see.

Pete_Cavan

Looks like plans moving ahead to open Kishoge Railway Station;

https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/232730/1/0

p_haugh

The Irish Times mentions that construction work is expected to finish in November, with it opening in December. This makes sense as that will be around the yearly change of timetables.

As I saw on twitter (can't find the tweet), Pelletstown opening before the timetables changed caused issues with punctuality and running times as a result!

https://www.irishtimes.com/transport/2023/01/30/dublin-ghost-station-will-open-this-year/

LXFlyer

A simple rule in commuter rail timetable planning is that every station stop adds 2mins to the schedule for EMUs and 3 mins for DMUs, and 3 mins for Intercity services.

Obviously that eats into turnaround times which, if they are tight, can necessitate a recast.

AngryLips

So the Dart+ website says that capacity on Maynooth line will be increased from 2025 onwards ...is that timetable still valid?

brianc89

I can't find any reference to the 2025 dates? There definitely used to be but they have largely removed date references from the Dart+ W and SW websites.

I found this in the FAQs for DART+ W:

What is the timeline for commencement of construction?

Subject to the Railway Order being successfully granted by An Bord Pleanála it is expected that construction stage work is expected to commence in 2023 and will be completed/operational in 2027.

Note for SW, it says 2029 operational.