DART+ (DART Expansion)

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119406857#Comment_119406857

I am explaining why the old station building had to shut and is not going to reopen.

It was not possible for Irish Rail as an employer to guarantee a safe place of work to their staff there, after the serious assaults that took place, something which they are legally obliged to do. The close proximity to the street of the building meant that the local criminal element could just get away immediately in any of four different directions. Hence it was shut.

As for the proposed Preston Street entrance, Irish Rail cannot be responsible for security outside of their premises along a public street. That is something that the Garda Síochána are responsible for. But it does offer a safer place of work, which is the problem for the original entrance.

I will be honest that I would keep my walking to an absolute minimum in the area after dark, having been mugged at a bus shelter on Amiens Street just up from Preston Street some time ago after dark.

It may well be that the Preston Street entrance may only be open up until a certain time, a bit like the Townsend Street entrance to Tara Street Station, and that afterwards people have to use the main station entrance.

But anti-social behaviour is a real issue in the area, and not something that the railway company can solve. It needs a societal change in attitudes.

L1011

Businesses that can somehow stay open along that stretch - multiple pubs, two four star hotels, Spar...

cgcsb

The building at the end of the terrace there is being redeveloped into a hotel right now. Irish rail own the large red brick building on the north side of the street, they could convert it to another use to promote higher footfall. The street will be given improved lighting as part of the scheme. Government is now offering significant grant money to developers wanting to restore city centre buildings, and with rents and hotel prices what they are I'd say prepare for large scale gentrification of the last dodgy parts of Central Dublin.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119406971#Comment_119406971

Two SPAR shops, one of which requires people to pre-pay for sandwiches having ordered them, and the other at the Five Lamps has a massive bank of TV screens opposite the tills which allows the staff to monitor each aisle for shoplifting.

There’s only one hotel on Amiens Street and it’s currently given over to Ukrainians fleeing the war there.

Not sure I’d be frequenting any of the pubs around the old station entrance either. They’ve more of a “local” trade.

It is an area with a lot of social problems. Where I work we have regular issues with syringes and other drug paraphernalia left on the doorstep, and that is on Amiens Street.

It’s going to take an awful lot to “gentrify” it. The locals aren’t going away and nor are the problems that pervade the area.

L1011

The North Star and The Address are separate hotels. Graingers and Clearys are absolutely fine - Lloyds and Mullets are a bit more locals-only but still safe.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119407120#Comment_119407120

We are getting massively off-topic here, But they aren’t separate hotels anymore - they merged into one during Covid. And the entire hotel is now housing Ukrainians.

As for the pubs, Graingers and Clearys are ok, but I’ll take your word for it on the other pubs. They’re not exactly “gentrified”.

The issues on the street are more focussed the closer you are to Buckingham Street and up towards the Five Lamps, which is the area where the old station entrance was located.

murphaph

Irish Rail are going to have to deal with exactly the same anti social behaviour with the new entrance. It's not in any way significantly different than the old one. It might well be worse, given it's not on a thoroughfare. Let's hope they don't just give up on the new entrance after a few years too. It will provide significant amenity to passengers, effectively adding a new station because the detour from there to P7 via the main entrance is enormous.

As others have noted, businesses in the area have taken steps to ensure they remain open. It's not good enough to just cave in and close up as Irish Rail did with the previous suburban entrance.

spacetweek

Let's get back to the DART Northwest RO.

I've gone over the maps and there will not be an overpass built at Clonsilla. I know there's going to be a new bridge over the railway just west of Hansfield but still.

Worse, is that although Barberstown will have an overpass constructed, the existing level crossing is remaining open! Why on earth was it decided to do this? I know trains will be less frequent west of Clonsilla but still.

The one at Deey Bridge is not closing either, but that's very quiet.

murphaph

Are you sure these LC's aren't being stopped up? Clonsilla doesn't really have the space to build a road bridge in fairness. It'll have to make do with the existing Diswellstown road bridge and the planned bridges further west. The planned distributor from Ongar to Barnhill will take most of that traffic anyway.

spacetweek

Also the existing Spencer Dock station is being retained. Thought they were demolishing it. Wonder what they'll use it for?

Plot thickens. In this document it says Barberstown will indeed be permanently stopped up, and so will Blakestown according to this document.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119409002#Comment_119409002

There was never a plan to build a new road bridge at Clonsilla - not sure why you though that there was?

spacetweek

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119409592#Comment_119409592

I assumed there would be - the alternatives being provided are distant from Clonsilla village.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119409399#Comment_119409399

I’m not sure that the existing Docklands station is being retained in the long term?

It’ll have to stay until the new Spencer Dock station becomes operational, but I’m pretty sure it’s for the chop after that happens.

p_haugh

As far as the drawings indicate, docklands station isn't being removed (as part of this project at least).

LXFlyer

It can’t be removed until the project is complete, as its capacity is needed through the works phase, so I wouldn’t expect to see anything per se about that.

But I don’t believe that it’s staying after that.

I don’t think that its closure and removal requires a railway order? I suspect quite probably not.

murphaph

Might they be keeping it as a diversion option if DU is ever being built and works around the new station prevent its use?

brianc89

I am absolutely GOBSMACKED at the lack of forward thinking at Spencer Dock. This is a total death nail for any future Dart Underground or any such similar plan.

Any vision Dublin could have had for a loop line (Heuston West, Phoenix Park tunnel, Spencer Dock, DU, maybe along Grand Canal, and back to Heuston) will be impossible with this plan.

All they would need to do is lower the platform another level and continue a "tunnel" until the river. This would allow future extension.

But NO. Future extension past Spencer Dock will be 100% impossible with this plan.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119410414#Comment_119410414

Not really they can deep bore a dart underground station and use the park across the street to build a station box then join the tracks further north

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119410461#Comment_119410461

So then we'll have Spencer Dock as a terminus station for the city, with a separate underground line connecting through here, in theory?

I still think it makes more sense to future proof the station by allowing the proposed platform / line to extend. The cost of a future deep bore will be astronomically more expensive than simply extending the proposed line.

Rulmeq

>I am absolutely GOBSMACKED at the lack of forward thinking at Spencer Dock.

To be fair I'd have been with you 5 years ago, but seeing the squeals from the "residents" in relation to upgrading the green luas line (that was designed for upgrade to metro), and the cost of retrofitting Kishoge, I think we shouldn't waste any time or effort planning for future upgrades any more.

Zebra3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119410548#Comment_119410548

Seriously? We give up upgrading anything anywhere because of a handful of mé féiners?

brianc89

The same lack of foresight lead to 4 separate intercity railway stations being built in the early 1800s. That being Heuston, Connolly, Pearse and Harcourt (to reference their current names).

It took 170 years for these stations to be properly linked up and "properly" is a major stretch. Here we are again building a new railway terminus at Spencer Dock that doesn't allow for expansion in the future.

Having any sort of vision for the future of this country is clearly out of the question for IE.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119411024#Comment_119411024

There was a terminus on North Wall and at Broadstone at that time also. Very few cities of any scale avoided the multiple stations issue in countries where the railways were built by privateers

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119410897#Comment_119410897

I think that the mé féiners are a lot more than a handful, and they all have there own vested interests at heart.

spacetweek

"The same lack of foresight lead to 4 separate intercity railway stations being built in the early 1800s. That being Heuston, Connolly, Pearse and Harcourt (to reference their current names)."

All railways were originally built as private enterprises and they didn't take each other into account (or actively sabotaged/duplicated each other sometimes). You couldn't expect the 19th century termini to be connected by anyone other than a government agency - it was the same elsewhere. It's 5 termini by the way - you forgot Broadstone.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119411362#Comment_119411362

Yes yes I'm just moaning. My overall point still stands though!

It's obviously too much to expect that we'd learn from 150 years of history.

murphaph

Not designing this station to allow future integration into DU is really pathetic but sure we've become accustomed to this sort of thing. I'm not necessarily blaming IE here either. There are deeper systemic faults with our overall infrastructure planning that go back to the government and the people that elect them. We simply don't demand quality infrastructure as a priority at elections so we tend to get little and late. If even 20% of the electorate placed public transport infrastructure at the top of their priority list, things would be very different.

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119409655#Comment_119409655

I think the current Docklands station only has temporary planning permission because it was only ever meant to be a temporary solution, so even if it's kept for the duration of this project it's unlikely to be kept further than that.

lawred2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119411024#Comment_119411024

Would have thought that most rail projects at that time were private enterprises serving different areas of the country.

Pete_Cavan

I'd say they don't want to go at that Luas substation which would be an enormous amount of work now for no benefit. Maybe if there was spare capacity in the new electrical infrastructure they are developing as part of DART+ that the Luas there could be switched over to it before demolishing, that could save some hassle in the future.

As I noted before, platform level is at -2.39 (which almost 5.8m below the level of Mayor Street) and then there would be c.180m to get down deep enough to pass under the Liffey. Thinking about it again, that's not right, the trackbed level is obviously lower for a start. I presume for DU, they'd have to remove these proposed platforms and reduce the level, so it might be that at the northern end but would be lower by the time you reach Mayor Street. Not sure how deep it would go to pass under the Liffey, maybe it is stated in the DART Underground options report from a couple of years ago.

Obviously a deep dig would be required south of Mayor Street, but nothing in this project makes that more or less effort/cost. Presumably much of that work could be done with this currenly proposed Spencer Dock station operating, then close it for maybe a year while they dig out and connect it to the new tunnel. I doubt the original DU plan of starting tunnelling at Spencer Dock would work if this station was already there, might have to start tunnelling from the western portal site.