DART+ (DART Expansion)

LXFlyer

The NTA call all the shots on deciding the scope of all of these projects and their deputy CEO is not a DU fan.

To be fair, IE did warn that we could end up in this situation if too much reliance were put on the PPT rather than DU.

Regrettably DU is dead for the moment - despite being the absolute game changer for moving people across the city centre. Nothing else comes close, and I really do have to question the NTA’s modelling on this. It just doesn’t add up.

In response to @murphaph, sadly PT isn’t an issue at Irish elections - it ought to be but it isn’t. Perhaps the society is already too wedded to cars, but I share your frustration in this regard.

Dublin badly needs high capacity, high frequency, and relatively high speed rail across the city centre.

I spend roughly 25 minutes getting from Portobello Bridge to Amiens Street in the mornings and v.v. in the evening each day as part of my daily bus commute which is a ludicrous amount of time wasted.

The city needs north/south and east/west rail solutions that can move large numbers of people quickly, with large P & R sites and interchanges with the bus network.

But at this stage I’ve come to the conclusion that we need to just get on with the plans as they are now, and the clamour for more will follow.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119413083#Comment_119413083

Nice response. Yes, no doubt it's not as simple as "just dig a little deeper now". For sure there are more complications if you dig deeper, especially that Luas sub station, but it should have been possible.

Let's be under no illusion here. This is a new terminus station for the city which 100% stops DU. This new station will never be dug up to lower platforms for DU.

DU is (un)officially dead with this plan.

All that being said, I support the current plan given it's come this far. Let's get on with it.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119413479#Comment_119413479

I don’t think it 100% stops DU - it just makes it that bit harder - it’ll need a steeper approach from the northern line - but the station box is the issue.

We can but hope.

gjim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119413479#Comment_119413479

I don't think that's the case.

The revised DU options document discusses the eastern portal and positions the DU docklands station south of the "proposed Spencer Dock station" and just north of the Quays. From the diagrams, the DU line looks to be at least 25m below the level of Sheriff St so the TBM would go completely under the new Spencer Dock station - the DU docklands station would be mined out from under the old North Wall Station site.

The DU line needed to be deep underground south of Sheriff St in order to get under the Liffey - it doesn't look like this DART+ station would affect the original plans in any way.

brianc89

Apologies for my crude diagram.

All DU options, except one that terminates south of the Liffey, utilize the undeveloped piece of land (in red) which stretches from East Wall / North Strand all the way down to the Liffey.

Now with the Dart+ plan for Spencer Dock, the majority of this stretch will be built on at a very shallow depth which does not allow the line to be extended.

This stretch of land is the only place the DU line could have gone, which would allow it to connect with the current train lines on the Northside.

Therefore the DU is not possible anymore.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119414057#Comment_119414057

The proposed station in the current RO would have to be closed to allow for the construction of the tunnel portal. That is an inconvenience yes but far from impossible.

The current plan isn't perfect but it is a lot better than doing nothing for another half century in the hope that the tunnel project gets resurrected. The problem with the DU project was that it required doind so much all at once. Doing the DART+ works now gets a good portion of those works done, increases capacity, grows passenger numbers across the city and ultimately will make the tunnel more attractive one day.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119414069#Comment_119414069

Just to be clear here, I'm not proposing we delay things further. A plan is a plan.

I'm just pointing out that this plan goes against DU in its entirety. The idea we would dig up the new Spencer Dock in the future is flawed and could hardly be trivialised as an "inconvenience". It simply would never happen.

DU is dead.

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119413308#Comment_119413308

I've often wondered about the NTAs modelling over the last few years, particularly when they came out with their model showing that the Luas green line upgrade wasn't required. With the Dart Underground modelling, I now believe that they're telling the modellers to come up with the answer they want.

They want an excuse to postpone the green line upgrade? Get some modelling showing that it's not really necessary. Dart underground competing with Metrolink for attention? Run a model showing that DU isn't going to be that transformative.

Looking at it with a jaded eye, I don't actually mind it too much. I believe that if Metrolink and Dart+ projects are fully completed, then the NTA will run another set of modelling, where the answer will be that both the upgrade and DU are essential projects that'll transform the city.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119414077#Comment_119414077

But what's the alternative, just stick with the Docklands we have now? It is not an attractive terminus for all the services that would have to terminate there. The tunnel isn't going to happen any time soon, we may as well get what we can now instead of taking less in the vague hope that something more might happen at some undefined point in the future. The additional works to replace this version of Spencer Dock station will be tiny in comparison to the works required for the tunnel. The tunnel will happen if the demand/will for it to happen exists, this station isn't going to make any difference to that.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119414186#Comment_119414186

What they could have done now is dig the Spencer Dock station deeper. That's it. I know it's not "that simple" but it basically is "that simple '.

One way or another, this new Spencer Dock station will become very busy. It will never be closed and dug up to build a DU.

In theory, yes it could be moved back to its current location while a deeper line and station is built. But does anyone in this forum really think this would happen? In 30 years, there will likely be more LUAS lines as well as Metro and Dart+. A new plan will be drawn up that makes more sense than digging up Spencer Dock.

All I'm trying to do here is point out a very plausible scenario, that the proposed new Spencer Dock station is a death nail for DU.

D.L.R.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119414243#Comment_119414243

Absolutely right. Yet again Irish planners producing overlapping plans which contradict each other. Just like the green line/metro north and luas line f/college green plaza.

Totally clueless.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119414243#Comment_119414243

This station starts a couple of hundred metres further north tan the eventual station location, it can't be much deeper unless you significantly increase the gradient on approach, for which there is limited scope. To get to the depth of the eventual station location, the tracks need to be sloping down on approach which would be through these level platforms. No matter what way you do it, this station will require significant alterations to facilitate a new station further south.

The only option to avoid digging up this station is to not have a station there at all, which means sticking with Docklands as the terminating space is needed. I don't see how there is more benefit to not building a new, modern, high quality station in the heart of a busy area than building that.

I also don't by the idea that a new plan will be drawn up that makes more sense than digging up Spencer Dock. The terminating stations need to be made through stations to increase capacity, the stations won't be moving so the basic tunnel plan will still be relevant. Maybe in the future this will have changed so much that it is no longer desirable but that is not something which impacts current plans.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119414340#Comment_119414340

Going back to my crude diagram, the area shaded in heavy red, that's where the gradient of a DU line would need to go. There is more than enough space between the northern tip of the current platforms (near Ossory Rd) and the proposed new station to dig deep enough.

This would allow future extension of the line. You're missing my point here Pete. Anyone who thinks this entire new station would be dug up again in future, to facilitate DU, is living in fantasy land. It simply won't happen.

DU will not happen because of this plan.

L1011

DU is not going to run through the platforms of this station anyway, and mining a station box is entirely possible (if expensive).

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119414415#Comment_119414415

Yes, but the DU line needs to connect with the current overground lines on the Northside. It would be impossible to do this without digging up the proposed new station, which will never happen.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119414444#Comment_119414444

Its was going to connect to the Northern line only, and still can with this in place.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119414453#Comment_119414453

I don't believe there is enough space between Ossory Road and Sheriff Street to dig deep enough. The trainline along the canal would also be cut off from the new Spencer Dock station and the current station, which is a major issue with that plan.

In any case, I'll stop arguing this point here and move to the DU forum. Dart+ plan is not going to change at this stage anyway.

gjim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119414371#Comment_119414371

Did you read the revised DU document I posted above? It would be helpful if you did so, otherwise you're just guessing. It has diagrams of how the eastern tie-in will work along with diagrams for the DU docklands station.

The branch off the northern line will go underground near Hawthorn Av. and the TBM will be 15m or 20m under the level of Sheriff St by the time it gets south of Sheriff street. This is 10m or so below the lines of Spencer Dock station. Spencer Dock station will NOT be dug up again - why would it be? This section of the tunnel will be constructed by TBM not cut n' cover. The North Wall Station site (south of Mayor St) will be dug up to mine the DU station.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119414371#Comment_119414371

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119414243#Comment_119414243

There isn't space to dig deep enough. In order to get deep enough to pass under the Liffey, the approach would have to be getting deeper from north of Sheriff Street, right through where the station in this RO will be. The platforms for the station have to be level, so determined by the highest point which is north of Sheriff Street. This station can't be deep enough at Mayor Street because then the Sheriff Street end would have to be at the same depth and it isn't possible to get down that deep at a reasonable gradient. It needs the full distance from Ossort Rd to Mayor Street to get deep enough, a level station north of Mayor Street isn't compatible with this.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119414516#Comment_119414516

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119414523#Comment_119414523

I have read the document. Thanks for guiding back to this.

The DU feasibility study literally says:

"The added complexity of the proposed DART+ West shallow station at Spencer Dock has not been considered on the understanding that it would need to be temporarily relocated during the construction of the DART+ Tunnel and, afterwards, be reinstated and integrated with the new Underground heavy rail station."

So, I come back to my original point. Does anyone on this forum seriously think they will dig up the new Spencer Dock station in future to build DU?

gjim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119414653#Comment_119414653

No. Where are you getting this "digging up the new Spencer Dock station" from?

I've asked you before why this would be required? The diagrams make it clear, that no surface construction is planned or required at the site of the Spencer Dock station to support DU.

It's possible the Drumcondra line will not be able to access the station during construction because of its proximity to the northern line spur and tunnel portal. And they may even need the space used by canal/midlands line curve into the new station.

But there's no "digging up stations" mentioned or implied anywhere. That's in your head.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119415192#Comment_119415192

On page 30 of the DU feasibility paper, it quite literally says this exact thing. Well, by literally I'm interpreting "temporarily relocated" to mean "dig up".

I already figured this was the case after studying the plans for the new Spencer Dock station. You kept telling me to read the report, and LOOK it confirms my exact thoughts and says EXACTLY what I've been trying to tell you.

murphaph

Temporarily relocated does indeed mean "demolished to make way for a third docklands station". It's scandalous that the powers that be see fit to chuck our money away on a second "disposable" station in the Docklands. I'm all for using our taxes to build quality infrastructure. I'm not at all in favour of this throwaway attitude to planning. This station should be DU compatible or perhaps should not be built and the existing docklands station should remain open until DU actually gets built, If ever. I know it means only trains from the MGWR can access it but I don't care I don't think the added flexibility is worth burning millions for.

spacetweek

I've gone from thinking this doesn't matter much to agreeing with the majority view here.

Either New Spencer Dock will need to be substantially rebuilt for DU, or the scoping doc is wrong and it won't. If the first is true, NSD should be DU-compatible. To build it will require digging up the site anyway so let's just do that once. (I am aware this will raise DART+ West costs).

VeryOwl

It actually beggars belief we're going to knock down a temporary station to knowingly build another one that's incompatible with their own plans. By the time DART West opens its gates in the 2030s we'll be a few years away from the inevitable review that says Tunnel is needed. And then we mothball Docklands II?

It's a fantastic opportunity for a new city centre terminus done right. They should be protecting the alignment and building all new infrastructure to be compatible with it. The plans go to the trouble to be compatible with future overground development so why not with their own railway plans?

After all, we know what the Interconnector route will be... the report linked above paid a bunch of consultants to come up with exactly the same route that was approved in 2014. More €€€'s thrown in the bin. I agree with @murphaph - it's all just so wasteful of our money.

gjim

Where are ye guys getting the idea the station will have to be demolished for DU from? Why would it need to be demolished?

The plans are clear - the DU tunnels - constructed by TBM - will pass at least 10m below the lowest level of Spencer Dock station. The fact that the TBM passes under a building does not mean the building has to be "dug up" or demolished.

It's as DU compatible as it possibly can be. Nothing in Spencer dock has to be rebuilt to accommodate DU - except if they want to provide a direct link via escalators under Mayor St. to the platforms of the DU station which will be mined out from the North Wall Station site. The DU station is in a different location - south on the other side of Mayor St and 10 or 15m below the lowest level of Spencer dock.

Temporarily relocating to a different terminus does not require demolishing the proposed Spencer Dock station. The reason this is stated is because the curve from Drumcondra is right beside the northern line spur and proposed tunnel portal area. It will not be possible to terminate trains in Spencer Dock while the TBM is being launched. This does not mean Spencer dock has to be demolished - the plans in the revised DU options document make this clear.

And the idea that this is some sort of "waste", without it, the entirety of DART+ West and Southwest would be a waste as there would be nowhere in the city centre for the extra DARTs to go, given that Connolly is already maxed out.

brianc89

This is a snapshot from that document you keep referring to. Look at the position of the TBM. It is exactly where the proposed line, platform and station starts for the proposed Dart+.

The position of the TBM starts just north of Sheriff Street. I'm not sure what you're missing.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119416489#Comment_119416489

This image is taken from the Dart+ RO. Note the position of Sheriff Street and the new Spencer Dock station which is circa 10m below ground level.

Now add in the DU line, TBM entrance just north of Sheriff Street. Both of these things are not compatible. It's one or the other. To build the DU line, you'd have to rip up most of Spencer Dock station.

Given the gradient required on DU line, no other surface line would have space to terminate at the new Dart+ station.

donvito99

If the reason for Spencer Dock is for a better tie in with Luas, it would be betternto build two more platforms at Docklands, run the Luas up to Sheriff St and back down to the existing route to The Point, forgetting the existing Spencer Dock stop, and avoiding handicapping Dart Underground.

As much as the NTA see Metro as the future and as politically driven as these things are, Dart Underground is needed at some stage and it would be criminal to squat on the convenient tie in to all other lines.

randomname2020

Anyone here going to submit to An Bord Pleanála? Building a new station that would be incompatible with DU very short sighted