DART+ (DART Expansion)

dublinman1990

Yeah but if there was no stables built near the line to Drogheda. It wouldn't be a very big issue to discuss it as it would be irrelevant for that part of the project.

However if there was any other prebuilt structures in place that may give some negative connotations within the area regarding the ongoing status of the project. It would make sense to have it included for DART+ NC itself alongside the main proposals for the project if the intention was there to release it so that good lessons will be learnt from Ashtown.

I don't live around those parts of the Northern rail line itself. But it maybe a good idea to keep an eye on what is going on with Ashtown when it gets released in May. It may guage a better picture as to what's going on with it regarding any potential pitfalls being ironed out etc.

Peregrine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118561208#Comment_118561208

Here are the slides from the first consultation showing the road going through the stables.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118563349#Comment_118563349

Here are the slides from the first consultation showing the road going through the stables.

No, those pictures show the road going around the stables. Look at the bottom graphic in your post, the stables are still there.

specialbyte

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118564458#Comment_118564458

Both the emerging preferred option (public consultation 1) and the preferred option (public consultation 2) had near identical plans for Ashtown level crossing. In both options it would require the demolition of the Ashtown stables buildings and the acquisition of all of the lands around the stables. The sheds above the label "Ashtown Stables" in peregrine's image above is the indoor part of the Ashtown stables.

Below is the schematic drawing from the first public consultation:

Below is the schematic from the second public consultation:

The only changes are to the pedestrian access to the underpass, moving the pedestrian and cycling overpass and minor road changes. The underpass was in exactly the same location in both public consultations. The underpass is through the existing stable buildings and the yard of the stables was required for the construction compound and future pedestrian access to the underpass.

blanch152

I thought the Ashtown solution was a really good one. It took all of the through-traffic out of the small central village area and created the possibility for greater enhancement on both sides of the railway.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118565251#Comment_118565251

Presumably they are trying to come up with a solution that still does that and retains the stables.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118564605#Comment_118564605

If the intent was always to acquire the stables, then IE were trying to pull a fast one in the first consultation because it absolutely wasn't made clear, hence the general local agreement first time round and outrage the second.

Peregrine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118564458#Comment_118564458

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118565482#Comment_118565482

I'm sorry if this is coming across as rude but I'm really not sure how else to say this. There was literally a road on top of all three of the stable buildings belonging to Ashtown Stables. There's no way that can be described as going around the stables. There's no "If the intent.." here. This was what was published on day one of the consultation.

Look, I think a lot of the communication around this has been terrible and I think IÉ seriously underestimated the community value of the stables but the narrative that IÉ changed the plans after the locals largely approved of the first consultation and "rerouted the road through the stables" in the second consultation is just false.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118555830#Comment_118555830

The other side to this is train gets into docklands faster no delays and (depending where you get on it) less stops. Also it takes a good 5 mins to exit Connolly. Which large nullifies any time differences walking from Docklands causes. If you combine this with Dublin Bike the Dockland Station is often the quicker choice.

Pete_Cavan

It is mainly the pedestrian/cycle link from the canal down to the road which impinges on the stables area. I dont understand why they want the pedestrian/cycle lane to be level with the road under the canal. The road will be c.5m below the canal, the pedestrian/cycle lane only needs 2.5m head clearance which would really reduce the length of ramp needed there.

The other issue is the need for the full stables area for construction compound. It could be taken for the duration of construction and a new facility provided slightly further south after, probably much bigger than the current stables.

specialbyte

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118566493#Comment_118566493

The other constraints in the area are they can't demolish Ashtown Mill because that's a protected structure. You can't put the underpass under the canal lock or the old lock keepers house beside the canal lock as you would be undermining the foundations of those structures. If the underpass/bridge is to be at this location (as opposed to another location like at the Navan Road station to River Road) then there is a narrow strip of land they can thread this new road through but that goes through the existing stable buildings. I would have thought relocating the stables within the area could be possible – but maybe the owners are so dug in they won't consider any options like that.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118566646#Comment_118566646

The drawings posted above show the actual road impinges on one stables building only but the pedestrian/cycle route cuts through the two buildings. The drawings also show surplus land south of the existing stables after construction of the underpass. If the pedestrian/cycle route didn't cut through there, there would likely be more space between the existing Ashtown Road and new underpass than the existing stables area. The stables would have to go temporarily but it looks possible to create a larger replacement facility there afterwards without changing the route of the road.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118566351#Comment_118566351

This struck me as absolutely bizarre, that IE had pitched this from day one but absolutely no one picked up on it?

So I went back and looked at the MCA that led them to "option 2" as the preferred option. There is a reference to "significant impact" on the stables arising from loss of agricultural land. Now, it's a big stretch to say that people should have interpreted "significant impact" as "ceasing to exist after we CPO the land".

And you might look at that graphic and think it's obvious that the stables are going, I think it's debatable at least, to me it looks like they'll lose a shed. But none of this explains why it all sailed over everyone's head first time around but is now raising uproar at all levels.

And IE did change the route after the locals approved of the first version. That's not up for debate, is it?

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118566646#Comment_118566646

I would have thought relocating the stables within the area could be possible – but maybe the owners are so dug in they won't consider any options like that.

IE have not proposed any such solution, so it would be up to the owners of the stables to find a new location and that isn't really viable in the current climate.

CatInABox

Perhaps they heard our complaints here, but DART+ Coastal North has just been out it for consultation.

https://www.dartplus.ie/en-ie/home?s=09

LXFlyer

Woefully poor.

Zero improved infrastructure between Connolly and Howth Junction.

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118684281#Comment_118684281

Yup, absolutely nothing. Total missed opportunity. Doing the bare minimum, as expected sadly.

LXFlyer

It’s frankly disgraceful.

loyatemu

proposed train frequencies for those that don't want to trawl through all the docs:

I note all the services (other than the Enterprise) will stop at all stations, that'll be fun coming from Dundalk.

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118684421#Comment_118684421

If all services except Enterprise are getting trains that stop at all intermediate stations, then for many commuters they're getting a downgrade in services effectively.

loyatemu

Enterprise is going to stop at just Drogheda and Dundalk, then I'd assume it will pass a Dart at Clongriffin on the way into Connolly, no reason why the Dundalk commuters (2 per hour) couldn't do the same. Maybe it's a typo.

L1011

That Platform 4 in Drogheda is going to lead to some muttering from Navan about passenger services on that line (which I'd consider to be a Bad Idea and probably kill any services via Clonsilla forever, although possibly could be justified as a climate emergency thing)

I wonder are they hoping on EU funding for an Enterprise project to pay for any triple/quad track sections between Connolly and Clongriffin. Because the omission here is ridiculous.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118684573#Comment_118684573

The disjointed way this is being done is awful.

The Sligo line faces similar problems. I doubt people further out beyond Maynooth have copped that their journey times are going to be extended too.

loyatemu

I wonder are they hoping on EU funding for an Enterprise project to pay for any triple/quad track sections between Connolly and Clongriffin. Because the omission here is ridiculous.

you're probably right, extra tracks are only really necessary for improving the Enterprise, if the Dart/Commuter trains are going to be all-stops anyway.

DoctorPan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118684573#Comment_118684573

You only have to look at the langauge we had to use in that area to see what NTA/IE are trying to avoid...

specialbyte

Jaysus. This is the absolute bare minimum no brainer stuff we've all been talking about for decades. Electrify more of the line. Make Howth branch a shuttle. Add slightly more stabling. Zero ambition at all.

There's no new track or passing points for intercity services except the exceedingly obvious missing fourth track at Clongriffin station. There's no attempt to sort out the track mess between Connolly and Killester. No attempt to connect Killester station to Collins Avenue so DART+ and BusConnects orbital routes connect to each other.

It's really hard to see how this project is much of an improvement. Many will see worse service. Capacity improvements are needed. It's like the project finds the cheapest ways to make more capacity available by ruining journey times and passenger comfort for all.

cgcsb

Of course. All of these schemes should have been part of regular maintenance and improvement of the existing infrastructure and should have been completed 40 years ago. But this way we get glossy brochures public consultation and consultants.

VeryOwl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118684796#Comment_118684796

How do you feel about this plan given your involvement?

Even by Irish public transport standards it's a disappointing announcement. Even more when you recall that DART+ completion has been flagged for the mid 2030s. The plan for the northern line for is to install a platform at clongroffin that should have been there anyway, update some depots and completely destroy the service by introducing extra paths the infrastructure can't support? That's the plan for 20 years? What exactly is '+' about it? Its arguably better to just scrap this and do nothing.

spacetweek

Can I ask where in the documents it says that all services will stop at all stations? This beggars belief.

Fill out the form everyone!

https://www.dartplus.ie/en-ie/projects/dart-north/public-consultation-round-1/how-to-engage-contact-us

DoctorPan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118686909#Comment_118686909

How I feel? It's the best that meets the objectives that client wants within their constraints.

Now the constraints on the other hand...

Oh the memoirs I'd write on this project.