DART+ (DART Expansion)

goingnowhere

There were no level crossing accidents in 2022 where a train struck something, there was one in 2023 which while not fatal led to very serious injuries.

In the 2023 incident there was someone in the cab who shouldn't have been there, not a factor but a breach of procedure.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122950340#Comment_122950340

GDPR rules would prevent that use.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122950325#Comment_122950325

No I don't need to read anything.

There is no extra responsibility in having safety cameras on in driver cabs. That is a simple fact.

murphaph

The drivers just don't want the cameras in case they are caught on their phones. That's the truth of it. They have absolutely nothing to fear from a CCTV camera if they are just doing their job properly. They don't have to point at instruments while wearing white gloves and saying out loud what the instrument reads, like Japanese train drivers do. This is proven to have improved safety on JR by the way. All the Irish Rail drivers are being asked to do is quite simply nothing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointing_and_calling

highdef

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122952194#Comment_122952194

Exactly, the driver does his/her job in exactly the same manner, whether there is an in-cab camera or not. The enabling of a camera in the cab does not mean an increase in responsibility. The installation of a tracker in my company supplied car made no difference to my responsibilities, workload or how I conduct myself when driving.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122951800#Comment_122951800

Thanks for the fatality information. Great to see Ireland is the best performer. But most accidents are non-fatal, and even with no persons injured. Accurate and inteernationally compatible data on all (reported?) accidents is difficult to come by.

I would imagine that momentary driver innatention, which CCTV might be trying to monitor, would be reflected in occasional SPADS and drivers not sounding timely warnings to people on or near the line. Many of the latter will never be reported - near misses. If CCTV helps to improve matters, it should be used, but try to avoid heavy-handed discipline, which may lie behind union problems.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122951854#Comment_122951854

if a driver is on their phone then they will be found out very quickly so cameras won't make a difference there, inspectors travel the network regularly and unannounced and under cover so as to insure drivers are doing the job.
from nearly 30 years of using the railway i have never once saw a driver on their phone when they should not be.
as for not stopping in time, very sadly that doesn't really exist as by the time a driver sees someone on the line in the best conditions it's generally already to late unfortunately if traveling at speed.

so the not safety cameras being switched off or removed won't make a difference in any way to passengers.

we are safe.

CatInABox

I wonder why they use "per thousand km of railway tracks" in the stats? Wouldn't "per thousand km travelled" or something along those lines be better?

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122952962#Comment_122952962

First figure is very easy to find and verify. Second one is neither.

goingnowhere

Typically metrics are presented as per million train km or million passenger train km or million tonnes train km to normalise

Pete_Cavan

I suggested, maybe two years ago, that we should have a separate DART+ Rolling Stock thread. The last couple of pages are exactly why I did so.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122952724#Comment_122952724

100% this.

Most people who don't understand how railways work don't realise how strict and enforced the rules are. Railway rules are written in blood (IE someone's death has forced a rule to be created).

I think in 2022 there were only 11 SPADs only two were deemed serious. (I know on the DART is a SPAD happens the brakes are immediately applied. It's possible that another train in the same signal block also have their brakes applied in the event a SPAD is detected, I don't know for sure if this system is in place)

There are more speed checks carried out against trains than the Garda do are against Road vehicles in Ireland.

There are inspectors everywhere.

The records I posted above that were backed up again @KrisW1001 show that Ireland has the safest railways in the EU.

So again, I ask the naysayer's: Given all the evidence above HOW is the addition of CCTV in the driver cab going to improve safety?

This is clearly just something to punish drivers over trivial rubbish.

In any case, all the union has to do is wait, they don't need to strike. The government will get involved when timelines project start to get missed.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122952183#Comment_122952183

The rules aren't worth the paper they're written on. There's no auditing on 99% the CCTV out there, so there's no way to check who watched it.

And even at that, Irish rail could argue the subject of the recording is the Cab and not the driver in which case they could watch the CCTV when ever they want.

Anyone who's actually gone through GDPR will realise how subjective the terms of reference in it are. The scope is so wide it serves an excuse to do nothing and anything.

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122962050#Comment_122962050

How would the inspector check if a driver is on their phone?

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122962207#Comment_122962207

If on a platform, they'll just walk up to the cab and look in the window.

There's also CCTV on some sections track.

The inspector can also just access the Cab from passenger area on the train, I've seen them just walk in to the cab between stations in the past.

You have to keep one hand on the power handle at all times otherwise the train will engage the brakes, you won't have time or the dexterity to put the phone away quickly enough by the time the inspector opens the door.

If you're using your phone while driving a train, you will be caught… and it won't be 3 penalty points and €120 fine either…

murphaph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122962050#Comment_122962050

What would be an example of trivial rubbish?

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122962799#Comment_122962799

Maybe you should explain how it will improve safety first?
I've done loads of splaining on this thread.

murphaph

I've already made the comparison with the airlines. Cockpit voice recorders have solved mysteries surrounding crashes that we have learned out of, to prevent the same mistakes being made in future. I see no reason why we shouldn't use similar technology on the railways. The "sure railways are very safe" argument is nonsense. Air travel is statistically even safer than train travel.

So what would be an example of the "trivial rubbish" you speak about?

bikeman1

Apart from the DART units, where the deadman is pushing / holding down the power handle, there is no requirement to keep your hands on the controls if you don’t want to.

You can notch up and then take your hands off and the train does the work. The deadman is a pedal on the ground. When that beeps you lift your foot off the pedal and immediately put it back down. You have to do that fairly quickly.

There is plenty of time and opportunity to use your phone if you wanted to.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122962101#Comment_122962101

You clearly don't understand GDPR, particularly the rules around what CCTV can be used for and not used for.

Zebra3

Any updates on the DART+?

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122966011#Comment_122966011

You should probably be more specific.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122952194#Comment_122952194

If you don't want to read the posts correctly, then you'll keep making mistakes. You are the only one bringing up in cab CCTV as being extra responsibility. Nobody has suggested that.

Highdef doesn't understand the extra responsibility of having more passengers on a train, and thinks drivers are just after a pay day. I could be wrong, but he seems to have a grudge against rail workers getting decent pay and conditions.

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122966093#Comment_122966093

anything that's not related to cab CCTV I guess

Cookiemunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122966587#Comment_122966587

You came in and made a sweeping claim about responsibility while the conversation was about the CCTV cameras. It's very understandable that people took you up as meaning the CCTV was the extra responsibility.

It's about time you actually explained what you meant. If you done that earlier rather than being sarky about it and not answering when you were asked it would have been easy to clear up the confusion.

Sam Russell

Mod: I think CCTV in the cab has been done to death.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122966011#Comment_122966011

West has planning permission, but is facing a judicial review which won't be resolved for many months. The depot decision leaves the whole DART+ programme in doubt but IÉ are working on a revised submission for the depot. The delay will of course have impacts on the entire scheme and even the delivery of new trains as there is presently nowhere to store them

South West has planning but can get a JR anytime until the 8th of January.

Coastal north is in planning for only 2 months so there'll be nothing for another 2 years or so.

Coastal south is om ice for the moment.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122966966#Comment_122966966

I made no sweeping claim. I just pointed out a poster's bias against train drivers, and their confusion between responsibility and workload, which aren't the same thing.

Other posters got confused about it, yourself included.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122968017#Comment_122968017

Irish Rail are currently making space, and building new roads to store the trains.

scrabtom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122968017#Comment_122968017

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122968017#Comment_122968017

I've been told that Irish Rail has started looking at an entirely new location for the depot rather than trying again in Maynooth.

1huge1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122968327#Comment_122968327

Is that in Inchicore?

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122925852#Comment_122925852

Just to correct a point here - the DART drivers did not get a pay rise for driving longer trains.

There was a claim at the time, but it was rejected.

This nonsense keeps getting repeated like an old wives' tale every so often.

There are multi-year pay agreements in place nowadays across the CIÉ Group of companies which, to the best of my knowledge, incorporate the use of new technology.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122968488#Comment_122968488

They're looking at 4 sites in total. Including the original proposal at maynooth. However the NTA are indicating that they prefer a site to the west of Kilcock at the moment

tnegun

There's plenty amount of land west of Kilcock along with motorway access for construction and then the potential for a park-and-ride type station like Dunboyne in future.

spacetweek

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122968557#Comment_122968557

That’d be great - I presume if so then DART services and double-tracking would go to Kilcock also.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122968716#Comment_122968716

That would have to be the case if that option is chosen

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122968716#Comment_122968716

No. That would be done separately.

riddlinrussell

You're suggesting that they would build a Dart Depot beyond Kilcock station and not include dualling/electrification through Kilcock Station to reach it as part of that plan? Though it is true that a proposal to do basically exactly that (sans depot) is apparently already in the works, perhaps they will tag the depot into that design work and try and get it fast tracked.

Fingers crossed that the backlog is clearing and we won't see it languishing for several extra years and severely delaying Dart+

scrabtom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122969039#Comment_122969039

Does the government have the power to jump the planning for the new depot/dual tracking to kilcock up the queue in ABP?

riddlinrussell

Kilkock hasn't gone to ABP yet, still in internal design AFAIK, I'm more speculating that Depot design and placement might be rolled into that work if a site beyond Kilcock is selected, whether that's actually the best move time wise I don't know.

I don't know if there is a specific mechanism that the government has to ask ABP to prioritise a project, but whatever fast tracking needs to happen for the Depot should happen. Depending on the existing JRs for West it could end up being ready when the rest of West is, but it delays all the other routes as well.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122969058#Comment_122969058

If only things were that simple with ABP.

PlatformNine

How many DART sets would be needed for the full capacity network? I am wondering how the timeline might look for increasing the fleet size with the depot delayed.

It is easy enough to get a number for just 1 hour of peak capacity. 11 from HH, 11 from Bray/Greystones, 10 from Maynooth/M3, 9 from the Northern line, and I think the Howth shuttle would need 3 trains for 6tph. So that would be 44 trains and assuming during peak times the plan is for every train to be full length, that would be 88 sets for 1 hour of peak service. But if 88 would be needed for just 1 hour of service, how many would be needed to both maintain that during peak hours and have enough spare sets to cover sets in maintenance? Maybe 120 or 130 sets? I can't imagine it would need all 150 sets of the framework would it?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122971019#Comment_122971019

Where do you get the figure of 10 from Maynooth/M3?

At the moment it takes 44 minutes for a train to travel from Maynooth to Connolly. Assume four minutes to turn around, it will therefore take 96 minutes to return to Maynooth to be ready to start again (with another four minute turn around). Assuming 10 tph from Maynooth, that means it will take 16 sets travelling continuously to maintain a 10 tph from Maynooth.

Am I missing something?

goingnowhere

750 carriages is 150 sets plus the 17 Japanese sets so 167 total

Bray Malahide is 75 minutes, 10 minute layover, 85 minutes end to end to sustain service at 11tph would need 35 sets in motion, thats 70 total…

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122971215#Comment_122971215

4 mins turnaround is far too tight. I think that would be asking for trouble.

Crakepottle?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122968491#Comment_122968491

There's a lot of Dart activity in Inchicore

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122971307#Comment_122971307

It was for calculation purposes, if it is longer, you need 17 sets to run on the Maynooth line.

PlatformNine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122971215#Comment_122971215

From the TSS diagrams IE has given, they are in various report, but I can't seem to find the best one from either the D+ website or my computer. I did find one in the technical report from PDF page 28(doc page 13) Volume 2 in the link below. It does make sense though, if the capacity is for 12tph, 1 has to be the sligo service and 1 has to be the longford service, the other 10 would be DARTs.

https://www.dartplus.ie/en-ie/projects/dart-south-west/public-consultation-round-2/dart-south-west-useful-material-and-downloads

However I do agree that a 4 minute turn around is too quick, it is probably closer to 10 minutes, eitherway somewhere around 16 trains/32 sets does sound right at least.

PlatformNine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122971223#Comment_122971223

Ah okay so it adds up very quickly then. I would think that would be the majority of the sets given the length of the Malahide-Bray as well as the frequency, but I assume there would still be a good few sets needed for the other lines.

scrabtom

What about CACR?

It seems based on the fact they intend to start it as a battery service that it will surely need a fair few sets.