DART+ (DART Expansion)

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122883085#Comment_122883085

they're spending a fortune protecting the existing line and have ruled out moving it as part of the options process:

https://www.irishrail.ie/en-ie/about-us/iarnrod-eireann-projects-and-investments/ECRIPP/emerging-preferred-scheme

Kilcoole station (which is little more than a single platform halt) is down a narrow road nearly 2km from the village with a small car park I don't think can be expanded.

I'm sure during the Dart South consultation there will be calls for Newcastle to be reopened but it's in an even more remote and awkward location.

GerardKeating

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122885942#Comment_122885942

So widen the road to the station, and build a couple of apartment blocks beside the station ?

PlatformNine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122885942#Comment_122885942

As expensive as the prefered option for ECRIPP will be, it is still likely a fraction of the cost of a even a partial new alignment between Greystones and Wicklow. And I think some of the works along the section would still need to be done even if the alignment was relocated?

I don't think its quite that far is it? Either way it doesn't matter, its not close and even if it was the road to the station is pedestrian-hostile. I almost think with how limited space is for a car park, that they would be better off asking the NTA to buy an Enviro100(or some other small single-deck bus) that can turn around in such a small space, and run a feeder service to Kilcoole as part of the DART extension. I would imagine ridership at the station will increase substantially(from being the second least used station on the line) if it recieves an hourly DART, and its not sustainable to have most passengers drive to the station.

Ah guarenteed. Correct me if I am wrong but I think every D+ project so far has come with calls to open/re-open some station. The only reason I could see IE even consider reopening Newcastle would be for it to serve as a passing loop between Wicklow and Greystones. However I think there would barely be any space as is, let alone after the sea wall upgrades from ECRIPP. If a passing loop is really needed, my guess is IE would look south of Newcastle where there seems to be more space to work with.

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122890385#Comment_122890385

some of the line was doubled in the past, but the layout has changed a lot over the years with coastal protection and the line being move inwards. They're also working on greenway alongside the line. I don't think it needs to be doubled or passing loops in the near future, it's only 15 mins from Greystones to Wicklow, so they could even go to 40 mins frequency if they wanted to, which would be every 2nd Greystones Dart continuing to Wicklow.

spacetweek

KrisW1001

M50 has no Junction 8 - maybe we should put it back in as a DART park&ride? … I’m kidding!

Not sure why you're saying you're kidding - this is a very good idea that we definitely should do. It would be an intercity P&R though not a DART P&R. A large car park for the station should be built with bus bays and turnarounds and nearby bus routes sent there.

PlatformNine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122902679#Comment_122902679

It would likely have to with the plans to remove (or at least reduce) the Heuston car park. Though it likely would be designed for both IC and DART users. A P&R like that just off the M50 would hopefully help reduce car journies within the city.

plus ideally if they did that, they could also then convert some of the existing Heuston car park into other uses, including as extra platforms and/or sidings to future proof the station. Though from the sounds of the Heuston master plan it seems like they plan to turn the entire area into a large mixed-use development.

Citizen Six

Driver testing on the new Dart+ train is due to start today.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122916320#Comment_122916320

I heard there are (or were) union problems

goingnowhere

Dynamic testing not driver testing

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122917640#Comment_122917640

Not union problems. Company problems, making unrealistic demands, not seen in heavy rail anywhere else in the world.

highdef

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122918947#Comment_122918947

Such as? Care to explain or give an example of one of the unrealistic demands?

goingnowhere

Alstom is leading the testing, they own the train. Irish Rail provide logistical support, network access and supervise testing. Alstom has its own dedicated building at Inchicore.

bikeman1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122919518#Comment_122919518

My understanding is that these units have CCTV in the cabs, which no other trains do. They also have a camera that looks straight into the face of the driver and can detect if the driver closes their eyes to long or is distracted or something like that. Drivers rightly see that as an overreach and not needed as they safely drive up and down the network everyday without such monitoring.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122919987#Comment_122919987

So the drivers are against additional safety measures?

bikeman1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122919994#Comment_122919994

I'm not a driver or Irish Rail employee, so I don't know what they are against. CCTV in the cab is not a safety measure. There is no CCTV or such monitoring on a pilot in charge of an aircraft. The drivers I presume are the professionals and operate in a safe manner everyday. The deadman covers a driver being distracted or going unconscious. Also these trains will be operating with the latest signalling technology too, so will be very safe in any event.

loyatemu

the camera on the face is the same system that's in a lot of modern cars AFAIK.

Cookiemunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122920113#Comment_122920113

Yeah it was in Geoff Marshall's video. It's a system that will automatically brake the train if the system detects that the driver has become incapacitated.

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122920170#Comment_122920170

I guess there are other failsafes in a train that you don't have in a car. I assume some monetary consideration will get around the objection…

EarWig

Drivers on their mobile phone is a common sight in the Dublin stations.

It's a human right.

zanardi

Good video on charging battery electric trains in England, not sure if it's similar to the BEMUs on Dart+ but gives good insight into the issues involved:

https://youtu.be/sARTvQj5jIg

highdef

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122919987#Comment_122919987

Driver alertness systems are quite common in cars these days, as has already been mentioned. They are very much a safety device and you would think that drivers would welcome additional safety systems such as this. It a bit mind boggling as to why an employee would be against such a safety measure.

Same for any CCTV type cameras that could be in the cab. Again, these provide additional safeguards and extra levels of reassurance in terms of personal safety for the driver.

The role a train driver is to be drive a train and all the ancillary tasks associated with such a role. There are rules and regulations in place and certain things are not permitted. Should a driver be doing his/her job correctly, then said driver has nothing to worry about.

This carry on reminds me of people who moan about speed cameras on public roads. When you get into in-depth conversation with such a begrudger, you often discover that the person is a habitual speeder and doesn't like to follow the rules in place and the problem the person has is that he/she does not want to be caught and punished for breaking the rules and that's the actual reasoning for being against speed safety cameras.

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122920477#Comment_122920477

interesting video but quite a different system I think. The Dart+ trains will recharge from overhead chargers whilst at terminal stations and also will effectively recharge while moving by using regenerated energy from the brakes; so whilst under wired sections of the line they'll move using the overhead power only, but recharge the batteries while braking.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122881990#Comment_122881990

I disagree completely.

Currently we have arguably just 5 heavy rail stations within what I would term as “popular Dublin” (rather than a generic CBD terminology that can vary depending on your perspective) that are rapid transit style. Those would be Lansdowne Road, Grand Canal Dock, Pearse, Tara and Connolly. These service arguably one line (I know you can do Commuter Rail to DART at times as well).

I do not include Heuston there as I do not view occasional commuter services as meeting that threshold. Spencer Dock is an end of the line temporary station. Drumcondra is a commuter rail stop with infrequent services. Broombridge is the same and less central.

DART+ will immediately make each of those a heavy rail rapid transit style stations. It will of course also add in Cross Guns (which I consider part of this project, even if under the ML planning orbit).

That would be an immediate doubling of stations and additionally would automatically improve the utility of the existing stations.

It will immediately broaden the scope of “useful” Dublin to north of the canal. Places like the Phoenix Park immediately more accesible. Ditto neighbourhoods like Phibsborough and Drumcondra & even the entire area around Heuston, bringing them fully (imo) into the orbit of “useful Dublin”.

I’d argue that it is as transformational as Metrolink, perhaps more so when you consider it in the round.

People’s thought process will shift straight away on the utility of these lines and possibilities of getting around the city.

lordgoat

Any recent update on the Dart+West to Kilcock/Maynooth.

Last we heard was it's pretty much canned as they flood plain at kilcock was chosen to build a depot.

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122920944#Comment_122920944

It is not at all "canned". The railway works will proceed while a new plan is made for the depot.

tom1ie

How did the preliminary site investigation (even a desktop survey) not flag that the proposed location for the depot was on a flood plain?

KrisW1001

All covered previously. The design accounted for flood risks, but ABP examiners considered those measures inadequate, specifically in one part of the site. It was a difference of professional opinion, but unfortunately ABP's is the one that counts.

DoctorPan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122920944#Comment_122920944

AtkinsRealis were appointed back in October to bring the project through Phase 5a, review of the existing design and prepare contracts for tendering.

spacetweek

With Dart+ West needing a little tweaking because of the depot, but Southwest seemingly not needing any changes, surely they can go ahead with enabling and tendering for South West in the new year?

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122924244#Comment_122924244

Southwest needs the depot to operate. It may end up being on that line.

West needs clarity over the Ashtown JR, the depot is not the delay to start there.

riddlinrussell

Barring a JR on South West (when does that window expire?) There is no reason it could not proceed to construction.

While the depot may be needed to actually run the service its no bar to constructing the corridor.

Former Former Former

IE don't need clarity on the JR, they could start tomorrow if they were motivated to do so.

I think the fact that we're only now "reviewing previous designs and preparing contract documents to enable procurement of contractors in the next phase" is a good indication that construction won't be starting on either line until well into 2025.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122919987#Comment_122919987

There are 2 systems. CCTV looking at the Cab and the Red Eye system that detect driver tiredness.

The problem is with the CCTV as far as I am aware.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122925732#Comment_122925732

Dublin Bus, BE and GAI all have CCTV in the drivers cab, not sure about Luas. I don't see why it should be different for IR.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122920477#Comment_122920477

Yes, I saw this, very interesting. It is a very different approach to what we are using to charge the new BEMU's, which will charge via fixed rigid overhead catenary in Drogheda station and by regenerative braking while running.

I do think it could be an interesting option to use on the secondary lines around the country. The lines that need to be de-carbonised, but don't have enough traffic to justify OHLE. IR Engineers have suggested Hydrogen powered trains for these lines, but perhaps a system like this where they could top up a battery at each station along the way would work instead. Specially with the advancements in battery technology, getting bigger, more energy dense and cheaper quickly.

highdef

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122925825#Comment_122925825

Agreed. Any new technology that can enhance safety in any way should be embraced by IE employees. It's completely counter-productive to take issue with things that can improve matters. If a driver is doing his or her job in the correct manner, a camera is going to make no difference. Use of mobile phones is prohibited when driving anyway so any self respecting driver won't be doing such a thing.

I'd bet money that the root cause for the aversion for the cameras is that the drivers are looking for a way to try be paid more. Of course, they won't publicly say this. It's like when DART trains were lengthened years ago and the drivers somehow managed to wrangle a pay rise stating that they had more responsibility due to potentially more people on a lengthened train, even though the actual increase in actual workload was negligible. I'm an engineer in a TV company and if I tried to insist on a pay rise every time any new TV services are added to the platform, I know I'd be told to pi$$ off pretty quickly.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122925825#Comment_122925825

Those systems are there for Security reasons.

CCTV in a train drivers cab will end up being used against a train driver, not provide security.

I don't think Luas drivers have CCTV on the driver.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122925894#Comment_122925894

What do you mean by "against a train driver"?

What actions might a driver be doing while driving a train that would be used against them?

Surely if a driver is doing something against the rules while operating the train, that is a safety matter.

highdef

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122925894#Comment_122925894

Agree with @bk as well. If a driver/employee is doing his/her job as per the rules laid out for the job, how can CCTV be used in a negative manner against that person?

bikeman1

If my boss told me he needs to put a camera above my desk to monitor me all day long for the job I’ve safely been doing for 20 years, I’d object to it.

It’s not a safety measure at all. There are signalling systems, deadman, reminders, CWAS / ATP in place for that. The drivers are professional and drive in a safe manner. They don’t need a camera on them all day. That doesn’t happen on a plane, why should it on a train?

murphaph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122926866#Comment_122926866

But the cameras aren't going to be monitored all day are they? The recording would likely only ever be looked at if there was an incident.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122927234#Comment_122927234

Ever heard of constructive dismissal? - or selective editing?

If I was a driver I would want some reassurance over this.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122920457#Comment_122920457

Total bullshít.

highdef

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122927508#Comment_122927508

Can you give an example of how a driver could be constructively dismissed through the installment of CCTV in the cab of a train?

I can't fathom how a driver not breaking the rules set down in the job can somehow be fired for gross misconduct by the editing of CCTV footage in such a way that it would stand up in court.

The CCTV footage in the cab can show a driver doing something that is a sackable offence, only if the driver is actually doing something that is a sackable offence. You can't edit CCTV video to change the content of the video footage in order to get someone fired for gross misconduct..... That in itself would be a sackable offence, and most likely a criminal offence too.

goingnowhere

Its a legal requirement in Australia to have in cab CCTV. Its where the industry is going.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122927680#Comment_122927680

It is not likely that a driver would be disciplined over a CCTV recording, but it might be a worry that needs to be ruled out.

In these days of conspiracy theories spreading on social media, it could need spelling out.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122928041#Comment_122928041

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2024/1127/1483372-bus-driver-caught-using-phone-loses-dismissal-challenge/

Why should it be ruled out? If a train driver is using his phone and causes a crash, why shouldn't he be disciplined and fired?

EarWig

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122927536#Comment_122927536

That was sarcasm.

The phone use is true though.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122928360#Comment_122928360

pictures or it didn’t happen.

riddlinrussell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122929758#Comment_122929758

Technically that's the whole point of the CCTV no?