DART+ (DART Expansion)

bk

It is interesting how they are breaking up and branding this project. It is basically made up of 4/5 separate projects.

DART+ West - Maynooth/M4
DART+ South West - Hazelhatch
DART+ Coastal North - Drogheda
DART+ Coastal South - Bray/Greystones
DART+ Fleet

The 4 lines will each have a separate rail order.

I think this is a good way to break down the projects into smaller projects and thus more likely to fly under the public radar.

Sam Russell

bk wrote: »

It is interesting how they are breaking up and branding this project. It is basically made up of 4/5 separate projects.

DART+ West - Maynooth/M4
DART+ South West - Hazelhatch
DART+ Coastal North - Drogheda
DART+ Coastal South - Bray/Greystones
DART+ Fleet

The 4 lines will each have a separate rail order.

I think this is a good way to break down the projects into smaller projects and thus more likely to fly under the public radar.

Will they be getting dual mode trains? [Battery/o/h electric]

bk

Sam Russell wrote: »

Will they be getting dual mode trains? [Battery/o/h electric]

That seems to be what they suggest on the IR site:

https://www.irishrail.ie/en-ie/about-us/iarnrod-eireann-projects-and-investments/dart-programme/fleet-investment

Up to 600 electric / battery-electric hybrid vehicles

Iarnród Éireann, supported by the NTA, commenced the tender process to order the largest and greenest fleet in Irish public transport history in May 2019 for up to 600 electric / battery-electric powered vehicles over a 10-year timescale.

While purely electrically powered trains are expected to make up the overwhelming majority of train orders, the tender process allows for the supply of battery-electric hybrid trains.

This is to ensure that, should funding provision or planning processes see the electrification of the first of the lines be completed beyond 2024, that new trains will be available from that date to meet the surging demand from commuters.

Ultimately, the overall order will see the Greater Dublin Area (GDA) total rail fleet and up to 80% of all heavy rail journeys in Ireland, set for a potentially emissions-free future.

I'd suggest the majority will be pure electric, to replace the ageing trains on the North-South line and increase capacity there. I'd doubt there will run into any issues on electrifying to Dorgheda on that line.

Dual mode ones perhaps more likely for the West and South-West lines to hedge their bets in case Electrification is delayed on those lines.

bk

BTW from the reports, I note that they look at a "Rail Unlimited" scenarios in the modelling.

These two scenarios look to require 32 TPHPD through Connolly and over the Loop line Bridge! Anyone know if that (32 TPTHD) is actually technically possible with upgrades to Connolly/LLB or is it just an exercise in the theoretical?

And if it is possible, are they looking to do that with the current D+ plan or would it be a future capacity upgrade as and when needed?

If I'm not mistaken, the current City Center Signalling project supports 20 TPHPD through the LLB.

32 TPHPD would allow for incredible capacity across these lines. For instance from Drogheda in, you would be looking at a DART every 3.75 minutes. Bray in every 3.33 minutes, with it dropping to every 1.87 minutes from GCD in! From Maynooth/Hazelhath a train every 3.75 minutes.

That would really be impressive. But if Connolly/LLB can handle 32 TPHPD is the big question.

loyatemu

bk wrote: »

That would really be impressive. But if Connolly/LLB can handle 32 TPHPD is the big question.

IR struggle to run the current timetables reliably and there are often delays across the LLB for various reasons. I can't see them managing even 20 TPH, never mind 32. Signalling is only part of the issue.

bk

loyatemu wrote: »

IR struggle to run the current timetables reliably and there are often delays across the LLB for various reasons. I can't see them managing even 20 TPH, never mind 32. Signalling is only part of the issue.

Well I'd assume that the current Connolly Yard project and the D+ projects would look to resolve that or at least attempt to. The question I'm wondering is would it be to 20 level or 32 level.

Zebra3

Would it be worth splitting the thread into various threads exclusive to each separate project as they all have different timelines?

Would be easier to find issues relating to a particular bridge on one line etc and make it easier to attract in posters not normally on here who are only interested in their own local line.

It could also help with the tactic of splitting off the perception of the overall cost into smaller figures.

Markcheese

I don't think "branding" will cause too many problems overall , the biggest problems the current dart and luas have isn't branding, it's capacity ..
If you build the capacity the public will use it .. wether it's called dart plus ,dart west , the regular users will learn pretty quick which trains do or don't have loos ,or which are stopping or not ..

roadmaster

Would they not just move sligo/M3 services peremently to spencer Dock. It would ease issues in connolly and speed up the sligo line. Passengers could access the city center either via broombridge luas or spencer Dock luas

bk

Markcheese wrote: »

I don't think "branding" will cause too many problems overall , the biggest problems the current dart and luas have isn't branding, it's capacity ..
If you build the capacity the public will use it .. wether it's called dart plus ,dart west , the regular users will learn pretty quick which trains do or don't have loos ,or which are stopping or not ..

It doesn't say it for certain, but reading the reports, I get the impression that there won't be separate electric commuter and DART services. It will all just be DART.

The report seems to treat them all largely the same, just talking about where they terminate, which would make me thinking there won't be any express services and they will be stopping at every stop along the way.

I could totally be wrong about that, just my impression.

Plus reading the reports, I think people will need to get use to the DART network being more complicated and will need to consider the destination before boarding.

Trains will be terminating at lots of different places, Connolly, Grand Canal Dock, Dun Laoighare, Bray, Greystones, Spencer Dock, Heuston, Clongriffin, Malahide, Dundalk.

roadmaster wrote: »

Would they not just move sligo/M3 services peremently to spencer Dock. It would ease issues in connolly and speed up the sligo line. Passengers could access the city center either via broombridge luas or spencer Dock luas

Based on the report, they found that the Northern line will be the busiest, followed by the Maynooth line being pretty busy too, the Hazelhath line will be much quieter compared to the other two lines.

As a result, they are giving highest priority for which trains pass through Connolly/LLB to the Northern line, then followed by the Maynooth line.

The south-west line being quietest line, it makes sense to dump them into Spencer Dock. Folks from this line who want to go to the likes of Tara/Grand Canal/etc., can change onto one of the Maynooth line trains at Cross & Guns.

BonnieSituation

Shouldn't people always pay attention to where their train is going?

I mean, people are idiots and all, but to blindly get on a train after a whole heap of new stations and lines have opened and expecting it to be the same is not DART-branding or Irish Rail's fault.

This mollycoddling nonsense is why Busconnects is gonna be chopped up into a diluted mess and why we allow LCs to remain open for some school children or local busybodies to the detriment of public transport provision for the rest of us.

Also, there will be express services not stopping at every stop. I honestly don't see how anyone is still arguing this.

As mentioned before, imagine that journey from Drogheda-Hazelhatch or Maynooth-Bray, stopping at every single stop along the way. What advantage is there to doing that?

AngryLips

Sorry, maybe I missed something, but did I see mention on the thread of Dart+ serving Drogheda north?

Sam Russell

Build it and then we can argue about what it is called.

As for train destinations, people do not have many problems with buses or coaches when they go all over the place. They will get used to it.

For trains, speed, and reliability are two of the most important factors. Make it faster and more people will use it, but it must be reliable as well - no point in sometimes being on time, or only having four coaches instead of eight.

ncounties

bk wrote: »

The south-west line being quietest line...

Is it any wonder? It doesn't actually serve any of it's population centres. Don't throw Hazelhatch at me, per Google Maps, it is a 30 min walk, or 10 min cycle to the station from Celbridge. You're only real option is to drive there.

Wouldn't it be great if they actually built a spur to actually serve Celbridge, and even better, the second spur into the heart of Naas that I always bang on about. Whilst we still can build into the hearts of their historic centres.

LXFlyer

ncounties wrote: »

Is it any wonder? It doesn't actually serve any of it's population centres. Don't throw Hazelhatch at me, per Google Maps, it is a 30 min walk, or 10 min cycle to the station from Celbridge. You're only real option is to drive there.

Wouldn't it be great if they actually built a spur to actually serve Celbridge, and even better, the second spur into the heart of Naas that I always bang on about. Whilst we still can build into the hearts of their historic centres.

Building spurs means that the core service along the mainline is diluted. In time DART+ may extend further than Hazelhatch, and if you had built a spur then those trains wouldn’t be available as they would be diverted away.

BusConnects already plans for feeder buses between Hazelhatch and Celbridge/Leixlip, and an orbital bus serving Hazelhatch while travelling between Maynooth and Tallaght which will have no fare penalty. That’s a more realistic solution than building a spur.

ncounties

LXFlyer wrote: »

Building spurs means that the core service along the mainline is diluted. In time DART+ may extend further than Hazelhatch, and if you had built a spur then those trains wouldn’t be available as they would be diverted away.

BusConnects already plans for feeder buses between Hazelhatch and Celbridge/Leixlip, and an orbital bus serving Hazelhatch while travelling between Maynooth and Tallaght which will have no fare penalty. That’s a more realistic solution than building a spur.

The last settlement that line passes through on route to Hazelhatch is Adamstown (well when it's fully developed). If the line is extended without spurs, at some point in the next 50 years, say to Kildare, there will be a 30km gap between stations that actually stop at a decently populated settlement (that being the distance between Adamstown and Newbridge).

It would make much more sense for the current South West line to terminate in it's last population centre, instead of thirty min walk away, 10 min cycle, or a bus ride away. One only has to look at recent Metro Thread posts to see a fair amount of Dublin resident posters are not inclined to avail of it, if it requires another mode of transport in between.

If the line does then get extended further, to halt sprawl, it would make sense to have the line go into the next major traffic generator on the N7, which is Naas. Which is currently distorted in shape due to sprawling develops towards its eastern N7 junction.

Not only would this reinstate it's historic heart, it would open up developments to the immediate west of the town centre. I really don't feel towns further west of Naas would benefit from DART. It needs to terminate somewhere, and Naas would be a similar distance away from Dublin as Drogheda. We can't keep on indefinitely extending DART to Limerick, Galway and Cork. Newbridge, Kildare and Portlaoise should be served by some form of commuter rail service, be that DMU or EMU powered.

LXFlyer

ncounties wrote: »

The last settlement that line passes through on route to Hazelhatch is Adamstown (well when it's fully developed). If the line is extended without spurs, at some point in the next 50 years, say to Kildare, there will be a 30km gap between stations that actually stop at a decently populated settlement (that being the distance between Adamstown and Newbridge).

It would make much more sense for the current South West line to terminate in it's last population centre, instead of thirty min walk away, 10 min cycle, or a bus ride away. One only has to look at recent Metro Thread posts to see a fair amount of Dublin resident posters are not inclined to avail of it, if it requires another mode of transport in between.

If the line does then get extended further, to halt sprawl, it would make sense to have the line go into the next major traffic generator on the N7, which is Naas. Which is currently distorted in shape due to sprawling develops towards its eastern N7 junction.

Not only would this reinstate it's historic heart, it would open up developments to the immediate west of the town centre. I really don't feel towns further west of Naas would benefit from DART. It needs to terminate somewhere, and Naas would be a similar distance away from Dublin as Drogheda. We can't keep on indefinitely extending DART to Limerick, Galway and Cork. Newbridge, Kildare and Portlaoise should be served by some form of commuter rail service, be that DMU or EMU powered.

Attitudes can change and BusConnects should make changing modes more accepted.

Right now with not enough local and orbital routes, along with no time based tickets, of course people are motivated against changing.

The discussion in the Metrolink thread was about people flying, and that is a rather different set of circumstances to people commuting.

In the case of Celbridge & Hazelhatch, a regular scheduled feeder bus service that links the housing estates with Hazelhatch station with no additional fare penalty is the most realistic option. It’s maximising existing infrastructure. I can’t even see where a spur would go.

The existing station has lots of P & R space and will only be 5 minutes on a bus that won’t cost anything for the trip when BusConnects time based ticketing is launched.

In the case of Naas the old spur has been built on, so you would be looking at a very costly project.

ncounties

LXFlyer wrote: »

Attitudes can change and BusConnects should make changing modes more accepted.

Right now with not enough local and orbital routes, along with no time based tickets, of course people are motivated against changing.

The discussion in the Metrolink thread was about people flying, and that is a rather different set of circumstances to people commuting.

In the case of Celbridge & Hazelhatch, a regular scheduled feeder bus service that links the housing estates with Hazelhatch station with no additional fare penalty is the most realistic option. It’s maximising existing infrastructure. I can’t even see where a spur would go.

The existing station has lots of P & R space and will only be 5 minutes on a bus that won’t cost anything for the trip when BusConnects time based ticketing is launched.

In the case of Naas the old spur has been built on, so you would be looking at a very costly project.

I’m sure ridership with significantly improve and it will be good to have buses that think up with stops. The Austrians are very good at this even with metro stops.

In terms of Naas, my suggestion would be a completely new alignment approaching the town centre from the North West over greenfield sites.

D.L.R.

Naas would benefit from a centrally located station. So would Lucan.

Amazing how impossible it is for the state to build a couple miles of railway.

Tomrota

ncounties wrote: »

Not only would this reinstate it's historic heart, it would open up developments to the immediate west of the town centre. I really don't feel towns further west of Naas would benefit from DART. It needs to terminate somewhere, and Naas would be a similar distance away from Dublin as Drogheda. We can't keep on indefinitely extending DART to Limerick, Galway and Cork. Newbridge, Kildare and Portlaoise should be served by some form of commuter rail service, be that DMU or EMU powered.

Drogheda is 53km from the city centre. Naas is 30km from the city centre. That’s why it doesn’t make much sense that it’s being extended to Drogheda and not Naas.

The mission of DART+ is to allow commuters in the GDA to avail of frequent high capacity heavy rail infrastructure to attract people to use public transport. They forgot to mention of course that if you live on the N7 corridor, there won’t be such improvements. The Naas area houses more people than Celbridge and Maynooth combined, and they will get two DART lines, it really doesn’t make sense not to extend the ‘Kildare line’ to Naas. Naas area is choked with traffic, people using the N7 are crying out for somewhat decent public transport.

Lord Glentoran

ncounties wrote: »

Is it any wonder? It doesn't actually serve any of it's population centres. Don't throw Hazelhatch at me, per Google Maps, it is a 30 min walk, or 10 min cycle to the station from Celbridge. You're only real option is to drive there.

Wouldn't it be great if they actually built a spur to actually serve Celbridge, and even better, the second spur into the heart of Naas that I always bang on about. Whilst we still can build into the hearts of their historic centres.

There is a free feeder bus from both Hazelhatch to Celbridge; and from Sallins to Naas. They are on the rail timetable, and have been for years.

See: https://www.irishrail.ie/Station/Hazelhatch-and-Celbridge

Postscript: I did ask someone from the NTA ages ago why the feeder buses weren’t on the journey planner, but I got a faffy answer.

IE 222

ncounties wrote: »

Is it any wonder? It doesn't actually serve any of it's population centres. Don't throw Hazelhatch at me, per Google Maps, it is a 30 min walk, or 10 min cycle to the station from Celbridge. You're only real option is to drive there.

Wouldn't it be great if they actually built a spur to actually serve Celbridge, and even better, the second spur into the heart of Naas that I always bang on about. Whilst we still can build into the hearts of their historic centres.

Would of made more sense for the planners to of built housing nearer the rail line. Seems to be a major issue with all commuter towns. They sell the houses with rapid rail access to Dublin but build the houses as near the motorways as possible.

IE 222

I wouldn't been getting tied down with routes just yet. The new trains will be a 2in1 job and will be replacing both Dart and Commuter. The current routes we hear about are just the electrification parts. Once the network has been developed we will see trains advance further out where and when required without the need to invest in heavy infrastructure such as OHLE as the new trains will have battery packs.

I reckon each line will eventually have 1 if not 2 turn back stations like the kildare route with Hazelhatch and Newbridge while Portlaoise, Carlow and Athlone acting as the "end of the line". The higher frequency services will work a stopper service within the turn back section where a semi fast will make its first stop before continuing on further.

ncounties

Tomrota wrote: »

Drogheda is 53km from the city centre. Naas is 30km from the city centre. That’s why it doesn’t make much sense that it’s being extended to Drogheda and not Naas.

The mission of DART+ is to allow commuters in the GDA to avail of frequent high capacity heavy rail infrastructure to attract people to use public transport. They forgot to mention of course that if you live on the N7 corridor, there won’t be such improvements. The Naas area houses more people than Celbridge and Maynooth combined, and they will get two DART lines, it really doesn’t make sense not to extend the ‘Kildare line’ to Naas. Naas area is choked with traffic, people using the N7 are crying out for somewhat decent public transport.

I was advocating for it to be extended to Naas. I was saying it doesn't make sense going much farther than Naas. I make Drogheda 43km from Connolly as the crow flies.

Lord Glentoran

IE 222 wrote: »

Would’ve made more sense for the planners to of built housing nearer the rail line. Seems to be a major issue with all commuter towns. They sell the houses with rapid rail access to Dublin but build the houses as near the motorways as possible.

There are estates somewhat near, but the idea of developing Hazelhatch beyond one house per acre seems to have died. I stand to be corrected though!

ncounties

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

There are estates somewhat near, but the idea of developing Hazelhatch beyond one house per acre seems to have died. I stand to be corrected though!

Or we could deliver the transport capacity to the heart of where people currently live. An alien concept in Ireland for sure, but it seems to work for other nations...

ted1

Tomrota wrote: »

Drogheda is 53km from the city centre. Naas is 30km from the city centre. That’s why it doesn’t make much sense that it’s being extended to Drogheda and not Naas.

The mission of DART+ is to allow commuters in the GDA to avail of frequent high capacity heavy rail infrastructure to attract people to use public transport. They forgot to mention of course that if you live on the N7 corridor, there won’t be such improvements. The Naas area houses more people than Celbridge and Maynooth combined, and they will get two DART lines, it really doesn’t make sense not to extend the ‘Kildare line’ to Naas. Naas area is choked with traffic, people using the N7 are crying out for somewhat decent public transport.

The should have done a rail line instead of adding a 3rd lane

LXFlyer

Tomrota wrote: »

Drogheda is 53km from the city centre. Naas is 30km from the city centre. That’s why it doesn’t make much sense that it’s being extended to Drogheda and not Naas.

The mission of DART+ is to allow commuters in the GDA to avail of frequent high capacity heavy rail infrastructure to attract people to use public transport. They forgot to mention of course that if you live on the N7 corridor, there won’t be such improvements. The Naas area houses more people than Celbridge and Maynooth combined, and they will get two DART lines, it really doesn’t make sense not to extend the ‘Kildare line’ to Naas. Naas area is choked with traffic, people using the N7 are crying out for somewhat decent public transport.

Just looking at one station on either route does not enhance your argument. The western line serves far more than just Maynooth, and the south western line will serve far more than just Celbridge, especially once the additional stations are added, particularly Kishogue. That's a bit of a daft argument.

Developing DART+ will free up other rolling stock which will improve services from farther out, so I don't buy the notion that the N7 corridor won't benefit at all. There is nothing to say that Sallins won't benefit from additional services as a result of this investment.

I'm not totalling dismissing the notion of the stopping DART extending to Sallins & Naas, but it would require extensive additional trackwork, with four tracking extended from Hazelhatch to allow for segregation of services, and that's a long distance through open countryside.

I think that is also fair to say that a lot of the car traffic along the N7 isn't necessarily going to Dublin City Centre, but rather to business parks around west and south Dublin. It is very difficult to offer attractive public transport options to those business parks given their wide geographic spread, and the fact that many of them can stretch quite a distance from the entrance.

IE 222

ncounties wrote: »

Or we could deliver the transport capacity to the heart of where people currently live. An alien concept in Ireland for sure, but it seems to work for other nations...

Celbridge was a small little rural town when the railway was built. 100 years later it was decided to build housing on the western side of the Liffey along with a motorway. The town should of expanded towards the railway.

Anyways once Dart arrives the land around Hazelhatch will be as good as gold.

Tomrota

ted1 wrote: »

The should have done a rail line instead of adding a 3rd lane

Yep. I use the N7 every day, and while the 3 lanes have the made the commute HOME a lot more bearable (COVID also), I would have much preferred improvements to public transport in the area. Even if the bus connected with the LEAP cap, it would make it more attractive to use now and again.

Mad to think the biggest improvement to public transport for Sallins over the past 20 years is a few grand canal dock services on weekdays that are packed to absolute capacity like sardines on a train not even designed for a commute met with no bus services.