DART+ (DART Expansion)

CatInABox

Hopefully the Connolly Quarter development will improve matters there further, that area is in dire need of rejuvenation.

LXFlyer

L1011 wrote: »

Worked in the area for two years - found the pigeons under the bridges more of a risk than any of the people; but I was usually away by 5:30.

Well you don't need to be there beyond 5:30 to see the problems.

I've seen drug dealing along Amiens Street during the day, several mass brawls, two people having sex in the daylight on a back lane while spaced out of their minds, and three of my colleagues have been mugged at bus stops along the street after dark.

It has a lot of problems. It's possible to miss many of them I'm sure, but that doesn't mean that they don't exist.

Look at the two Spar shops along the street - the one at the junction with Talbot Street has had to impose a pay in advance requirement for all salad bar orders (you order it, they make it, they give you the bar code, you go to the till, pay and return with the receipt before you can take your sandwich/roll) due to problems, and the one at the Five Lamps has massive CCTV screens opposite the tills (bigger than anything I've seen elsewhere) so that the staff can make sure no one is stealing stock.

That tells me an awful lot about the social issues the area faces.

CatInABox wrote: »

Hopefully the Connolly Quarter development will improve matters there further, that area is in dire need of rejuvenation.

The redevelopments are helping, but being honest about it the area bounded by Gardiner Street, Talbot Street, Amiens Street, Portland Row/NCR, Charles Street and Mountjoy Square and the areas off Seville Place and Lower Sheriff Street are two of the most deprived areas in the city. That brings social problems, and frankly that is why the entrance was closed.

The social issues need to be addressed first of all.

ncounties

CatInABox wrote: »

Hopefully the Connolly Quarter development will improve matters there further, that area is in dire need of rejuvenation.

I'd love that to be the case, but the whole thing is Build to Rent. It'll be mostly full off people that have moved here with one of the big tech companies for a period of time and then will leave.

Had it been build to buy, people would actually settle there, and over the long term, the area would gentrify.

bk

ncounties wrote: »

I'd love that to be the case, but the whole thing is Build to Rent. It'll be mostly full off people that have moved here with one of the big tech companies for a period of time and then will leave.

Had it been build to buy, people would actually settle there, and over the long term, the area would gentrify.

I would imagine well paid tech staff will help it gentrify very quickly!

Plus many of those tech staff are in fact Irish and many of the foreign ones who come here, end up staying and making a life for themselves here.

L1011

As the % of total stock that is BTR increases the renter mix will inevitably change.

The Irish standard mix of either buy or rent off an amateur landlord with one to three properties isn't going to be the future.

gjim

ncounties wrote: »

I'd love that to be the case, but the whole thing is Build to Rent. It'll be mostly full off people that have moved here with one of the big tech companies for a period of time and then will leave.

Had it been build to buy, people would actually settle there, and over the long term, the area would gentrify.

It will be full of renters, yes. We need places to rent in Dublin.

The centres of wealthy cities the world over are dominated by rental property because apartments in the centre of such cities are expensive.

This weird Irish implicit anti-rental mentality drives me nuts. Like there's something immoral/slightly unsavoury about the whole interaction whether as tenant or landlord.

People who rent are just as likely to take an interest in their immediate environment and want to enjoy being in a nice neighbourhood.

Having lived abroad for about a quarter of my live, the attitude jars. You're allowed to be a tenant for a few years while a student or the like but there's definitely something wrong with you if you're neither an owner by the age of 35 nor constantly complaining bitterly that "the homeless crisis" is why you can't afford to buy a 120m2 apartment in the centre of a wealthy western capital.

roadmaster

L1011 wrote: »

As the % of total stock that is BTR increases the renter mix will inevitably change.

The Irish standard mix of either buy or rent off an amateur landlord with one to three properties isn't going to be the future.

Yip the new landlords will be the non national prs's such as Kennedy Wilson who pay little tax

L1011

I expect that taxation regime to be changed in a few years. Currently the quid pro quo on it is that they aren't challenging the almost certainly unconstitutional RPZ setup - our old rent control was found to be unconstitutional (a referendum to make it constitutional would pass by a landslide I'm sure).

The owners of these funds are pension holders here and elsewhere - if you have a private pension or an employment pension you are almost definitely a "vulture fund landlord" by proxy. KW are floated but their main shareholders are pension fund firms

ncounties

gjim wrote: »

It will be full of renters, yes. We need places to rent in Dublin.
This weird Irish implicit anti-rental mentality drives me nuts. Like there's something immoral/slightly unsavoury about the whole interaction whether as tenant or landlord.

Is your current projected monthly pension payout expected to cover your current rent?

gjim

ncounties wrote: »

Is your current projected monthly pension payout expected to cover your current rent?

Yes but then again that question not relevant to my circumstances. Could you be a bit more clear about what your point is?

I mean the obvious interpretation is that you do actually believe that renting is just for the stupid or feckless.

Or that you just don't want people to have the option to choose to rent over buying?

You realize that in many European countries there are more renters than buyers and people seem to manage fine in retirement? You know that living in a 10th floor 60m2 apartment in the heart of a commercial district may not exactly be ideal for all stages of your life?

ncounties

gjim wrote: »

Yes but then again that question not relevant to my circumstances. Could you be a bit more clear about what your point is?

I mean the obvious interpretation is that you do actually believe that renting is just for the stupid or feckless.

Or that you just don't want people to have the option to choose to rent over buying?

You realize that in many European countries there are more renters than buyers and people seem to manage fine in retirement? You know that living in a 10th floor 60m2 apartment in the heart of a commercial district may not exactly be ideal for all stages of your life?

You criticise our nation's adversity to renting, but do you blame us, when housing has become an ongoing commodity? Why would I want to rent, when renting in Dublin at least, is more expensive than owning? Indeed, longer term it's financially stupid!

If I could afford to buy somewhere in Dublin (i.e. get the deposit needed for the price of the property, and be able to obtain the mortgage, and actually find a new build apartment that I could buy - they're ALL BTR or €600k+), my mortgage repayments would be cheaper than renting an equivalent apartment, and I wouldn't have to save for a deposit or rainy day any longer, so I could put that money into investments or a pension pot, and after 25-35 years, the mortgage would be paid off. Even if the property's net present value halved in that time, I would still have something to show for it, after 25-35 years.

Conversely, availing of the option is to rent constantly, I would continue trying to save for a rainy day, and trying to put what little I have left into a pension. Then run the risk that property prices continue to increase year on year, so much so that when I do retire (if I can financially afford to at all), I can't afford to remain living where I am, and will be forced to move to the back of beyond, and even worse, should I require professional or 24/7 care, have nothing to sell to fund it.

Literally, who in their right mind, considering the above, would advocate that we, in Ireland, become a nation of renters?

AngryLips

roadmaster wrote: »

Yip the new landlords will be the non national prs's such as Kennedy Wilson who pay little tax

Any professional crowd that increases the quality of rental stock is to be welcomed, IMO

ncounties

AngryLips wrote: »

Any professional crowd that increases the quality of rental stock is to be welcomed, IMO

Like "co-living" [chicken coup] providers?

cgcsb

L1011 wrote: »

As the % of total stock that is BTR increases the renter mix will inevitably change.

The Irish standard mix of either buy or rent off an amateur landlord with one to three properties isn't going to be the future.

Would much rather amature landlords (overseen by government agency) than 3 or 4 large companies, who can afford to keep empty units and price fix between themselves. Dublins new BTR schemes are all luxury or student, most of which are empty and no sign of a price drop. If they were owned by amature landlords they'd have to drop prices to get a tenant in.

cgcsb

gjim wrote: »

Having lived abroad for about a quarter of my live, the attitude jars. You're allowed to be a tenant for a few years while a student or the like but there's definitely something wrong with you if you're neither an owner by the age of 35 nor constantly complaining bitterly that "the homeless crisis" is why you can't afford to buy a 120m2 apartment in the centre of a wealthy western capital.

Are you saying that we should lower our expectations to what is acceptable 'abroad' in presumably less wealthy capitals?
It's funny that you point out Dublin is a wealthy capital, but 30 years ago the middle classes were wealthy enough to house themselves in it, but now they are not. So who is wealthier exactly?

spacetweek

As riveting as this discussion on renting is, let's get back to the DART please.

ncounties

spacetweek wrote: »

As riveting as this discussion on renting is, let's get back to the DART please.

Agreed - think there’s definitely need for a housing infrastructure thread given the emotion around the topic!

lucernarian

gjim wrote: »

It will be full of renters, yes. We need places to rent in Dublin.

The centres of wealthy cities the world over are dominated by rental property because apartments in the centre of such cities are expensive.

This weird Irish implicit anti-rental mentality drives me nuts. Like there's something immoral/slightly unsavoury about the whole interaction whether as tenant or landlord.

People who rent are just as likely to take an interest in their immediate environment and want to enjoy being in a nice neighbourhood.

Having lived abroad for about a quarter of my live, the attitude jars. You're allowed to be a tenant for a few years while a student or the like but there's definitely something wrong with you if you're neither an owner by the age of 35 nor constantly complaining bitterly that "the homeless crisis" is why you can't afford to buy a 120m2 apartment in the centre of a wealthy western capital.

I think people have an ideological problem with renting, as it commoditises something people need for life. One person or family can accrue wealth simply because of the life essential that is a home, while another is forced to pay for it. Many people would gladly put their money into a mortgage if the financial rules and house prices allowed it. Sounds a little bit Marxist maybe, but I feel that basic accommodation should be provided more and more by public authorities with assets that remain in public hands - e.g. no selling off council housing to the tenants within.

/offtopic

Given that most of the traffic on the northern line is commuter-based, I *think* that we would get most of the benefits of 4 tracks, by simply building a third. 3rd track for down movements at one peak, and up movements at the other peak. I remember seeing estimates for a 3rd track looking a lot cheaper than the quad option, and I think we should get building this as the highest priority for any dart expansion.

marno21

Dublin Chamber pushing Eamon Ryan for a timeline for DU.

https://www.businessworld.ie/news/Dublin-Chamber-seeks-timeline-for-DART-Underground-delivery--574174.html

More of this please.

CatInABox

marno21 wrote: »

Dublin Chamber pushing Eamon Ryan for a timeline for DU.

https://www.businessworld.ie/news/Dublin-Chamber-seeks-timeline-for-DART-Underground-delivery--574174.html

More of this please.

Have to admit, Dublin Chamber have been knocking it out of the park as an advocate of a liveable city for quite a while now.

spacetweek

From that article:
"We have dates for the start and completion of the MetroLink and BusConnects projects. It is really important that these dates are not allowed to slip."

Absolutely. It would be typical of the lassitude in our government if start dates for these were casually allowed to be pushed out with no explanation. Both projects are meant to kick off by end-2021 and this must be adhered to.

cgcsb

It's already slipped. TII needed to submit a railway order, at the latest, about 4 weeks ago for meteolink to ABP in order for the programme to be met.

Bus connects was supposed to be implemented in December 2019 with work starting on the corridors this year. At present we do not have a single planning application for a single cbc submitted and the NTA are proposing ANOTHER public consultation/circus in September with perhaps some network changes this December.

Schedules had slipped drastically before the virus arrived and now programme is out the window. At this point each of the big projects are still vulnerable to political interference.

CatInABox

The government has gotten €8.8 million in grants from the EU to look into the DART expansion out into Kildare.

See here.

Presumably, this just goes towards the cost of the design phase?

Pete_Cavan

CatInABox wrote: »

See here.

“Dart expansion will provide more frequent and sustainable transport options to citizens living in the greater Dublin area, and encourage a shift from private cars to public transport,” the EU said in outlining the projects that were selected.

“The project increases train frequency and capacity, as well as better linkages with other transport modes. This is expected to have a positive impact on employment, congestion and sustainability.”

The part they quoted sounds like it is for DART Expansion in general. It would be interesting to see where that quote came from and what else was said if the funding is in fact only for the Kildare line.

ncounties

CatInABox wrote: »

The government has gotten €8.8 million in grants from the EU to look into the DART expansion out into Kildare.

See here.

Presumably, this just goes towards the cost of the design phase?

If DART isn't extended into the heart of Naas with a new spur from Sallins, what's the point of it. Naas must be one of the biggest traffic generators along that route.

Grandeeod

ncounties wrote: »

If DART isn't extended into the heart of Naas with a new spur from Sallins, what's the point of it. Naas must be one of the biggest traffic generators along that route.

And where exactly is the heart of Naas? Have you been there? Do you live there? The heart of Naas is long gone. Sallins station will do with all the existing and new roads. Naas is an expansive town with no particular heart, let alone space to put in an extension.

ncounties

Grandeeod wrote: »

And where exactly is the heart of Naas? Have you been there? Do you live there? The heart of Naas is long gone. Sallins station will do with all the existing and new roads. Naas is an expansive town with no particular heart, let alone space to put in an extension.

The Main Street. Yes. No (What does that matter?). The fact that it is an expansive town at present, is exactly why we need to tackle it. We don't need even more urban sprawl on the island, which promotes the use of vehicles. And there's plenty of space. Within 85-200m (which ever way you like to look at it) of the Main St there is green fields, all the way to the existing line.
Extend a DART there, create a development plan that involves denser housing and office space close to the Main Street and you'd could transform the town.

Grandeeod

ncounties wrote: »

The Main Street. Yes. No (What does that matter?). The fact that it is an expansive town at present, is exactly why we need to tackle it. We don't need even more urban sprawl on the island, which promotes the use of vehicles. And there's plenty of space. Within 85-200m (which ever way you like to look at it) of the Main St there is green fields, all the way to the existing line.
Extend a DART there, create a development plan that involves denser housing and office space close to the Main Street and you'd could transform the town.

Naas Main Street is dead and has been dead for years. All the action is on the Monread Road and Newbridge Road in terms of shopping via retail parks. The abandoned half built town centre will most likely be demolished. The original McDonalds even moved out of the town centre. Naas is a classic example of a commuter town that is beyond rescue. As for running a DART line into what you think is the town centre, best of luck.

Naas is a joke of a town beyond rescue. New estates are still springing up claiming to be at the "heart" of Naas. It has no heart and hasn't had one since the late 90s. Its car dependent like lots of similar GDA towns. The damage is done and trying to ram a DART extension into whatever space you can find won't solve it. If we get a DART extension to Sallins and Kildare on the existing line, it might help and thats about as good as it will get.

ncounties

Grandeeod wrote: »

Naas Main Street is dead and has been dead for years. All the action is on the Monread Road and Newbridge Road in terms of shopping via retail parks. The abandoned half built town centre will most likely be demolished. The original McDonalds even moved out of the town centre. Naas is a classic example of a commuter town that is beyond rescue. As for running a DART line into what you think is the town centre, best of luck.

Naas is a joke of a town beyond rescue. New estates are still springing up claiming to be at the "heart" of Naas. It has no heart and hasn't had one since the late 90s. Its car dependent like lots of similar GDA towns. The damage is done and trying to ram a DART extension into whatever space you can find won't solve it. If we get a DART extension to Sallins and Kildare on the existing line, it might help and thats about as good as it will get.

Yeah let's leave it as is, call it a lost cause and allow the NW area to be developed. And sneer at anyone that suggests otherwise. Great work Grandeeod. Yawn.

Grandeeod

ncounties wrote: »

Yeah let's leave it as is, call it a lost cause and allow the NW area to be developed. And sneer at anyone that suggests otherwise. Great work Grandeeod. Yawn.

I'll leave you and your thanks buddies in the delusion you are in. Hopefully I can recover the time I wasted on your post at some point in the future because and with reluctant respect, you have not got a clue what you are talking about.