DART+ (DART Expansion)

lawred2

What else do we expect from a wet paper bag like Shane Ross?

Ultimately the electorate gets what it deserves... if Dubliners were actually make transport an election issue then we'd start to see a change in politician's mindsets.

Grandeeod

lawred2 wrote: »

if Dubliners were actually make transport an election issue then we'd start to see a change in politician's mindsets.

You are absolutely correct with this statement. The only change I'd suggest is people who reside in the Dublin/GDA area and originated from any part of the country. It's a GDA issue and doesn't generate substantial unrest with the public. It has never been an election issue and I can't see it becoming one in the near future. There is a love affair with the car and far more ranting and raving about road traffic congestion. Something similar happened back in the noughties when the M50 was a car park before the extension to Sanyford and beyond. The Government solution was to pump millions and millions into the M50 upgrade and barrier free tolling while paying lip service to rail based projects that can actually take car journeys off the road.

As the M50 got upgraded and sucked euro after euro into it, our then Government sat in Dublin Castle promising DU, Metro North, Metro West and ring fenced money for it all. Typical Sh1te from Irish politicians. As that FF lead Government eventually collapsed our current lot in opposition promised to deliver DU and MN if elected. Then surprise surprise they buried these projects due to the recession. Fair enough. However they subsequently decided to completely re-invent it all and start from scratch as things got better. I don't care about any wannabe transport planners on the internet, but this was one huge mistake and IMO a deliberate fudge because they know people don't care in general.

Joey will sit in horrendous traffic on his way to his job in Park west. He'll sit in it along with his mate going to Sandyford and then do it all again that evening. They could be travelling from Mullingar, Longford, Carlow etc. A cheaper house out that way, but a seriously tough commute. Joey moans and groans, but really only cares about taxation, Mortgage interest rates and feckers on the dole who don't have to do what he does. A perfect scenario for a Government who can offer Joey little budget fixes that kick the commuting can down the road a bit.

For all the media attention commuting gets, fook all is been done about it. This forum is just like the media - a small group that care and won't be heard over the sheeple class who accept their doom as long as they can moan and get a little something from a budget.

Idbatterim

I was at a metro link meeting organised by councillor shay brennan of FF, I always had time for his dad, I think he was a very good minister. But you could tell, he was very supportive and on the ball about the whole project and realises its importance. He was at a public meeting etc, but you could tell he was thinking the same as many of us, when the usual bull**** statements or ill informed nonsense was spouted. They arent all bad...

transport and housing are the biggest local issues for me! What else do they do of any importance? constantly make traffic worse spending millions to reduce road capacity, effecting public transport too... freeze LPT and bitch about a lack of funds. Local government here is a farce...

Grandeeod

Idbatterim wrote: »

I was at a metro link meeting organised by councillor shay brennan of FF, I always had time for his dad, I think he was a very good minister. But you could tell, he was very supportive and on the ball about the whole project and realises its importance. He was at a public meeting etc, but you could tell he was thinking the same as many of us, when the usual bull**** statements or ill informed nonsense was spouted. They arent all bad...

transport and housing are the biggest local issues for me! What else do they do of any importance? constantly make traffic worse spending millions to reduce road capacity, effecting public transport too... freeze LPT and bitch about a lack of funds. Local government here is a farce...

Councillor Brennan's father was Seamus Brennan a Transport minister in the early noughties and before that. In the time of Celtic Tiger boom he tried to dismantle CIE and that was the end of his career. Moved to Social Welfare after that I think and then sadly passed away. He was famously remembered for saying that the Ballybrophy - Limerick and Rosslare - Waterford/Limerick routes would not close despite a constant CIE agenda to close them.

Housing/Homelessness are issues, no doubt. We know how things have transpired after the IMF came to town. But we still don't get it. We still as a people don't demand that public transport is an election issue and it's, because its about being able to afford a car, holiday, weekend away, day out in Dundrum SC and the right to moan like fook. I'm really hoping the next generation can make it happen. My generation didn't and the one behind me didn't either. Bad planning, back handers, Semi D's in the stix etc etc. I hope and hope that a generation come along in Dublin and say Fook you lot, we want proper PT with DU/Metro and other stuff or you can go to feck for a vote

Marcusm

Idbatterim wrote: »

patience! sure we are only several years into the most recent boom!

Plan during the boom and deliver during the busy might give most value but even that doesn’t happen here. It’s plan at an early point in boom, contract (badly with insufficient spec), commence delivery (and agree pricing) at height of boom and deliver badly!

Zebra3

Grandeeod wrote: »

Councillor Brennan's father was Seamus Brennan a Transport minister in the early noughties and before that. In the time of Celtic Tiger boom he tried to dismantle CIE and that was the end of his career. Moved to Social Welfare after that I think and then sadly passed away. He was famously remembered for saying that the Ballybrophy - Limerick and Rosslare - Waterford/Limerick routes would not close despite a constant CIE agenda to close them.

Housing/Homelessness are issues, no doubt. We know how things have transpired after the IMF came to town. But we still don't get it. We still as a people don't demand that public transport is an election issue and it's, because its about being able to afford a car, holiday, weekend away, day out in Dundrum SC and the right to moan like fook. I'm really hoping the next generation can make it happen. My generation didn't and the one behind me didn't either. Bad planning, back handers, Semi D's in the stix etc etc. I hope and hope that a generation come along in Dublin and say Fook you lot, we want proper PT with DU/Metro and other stuff or you can go to feck for a vote

Ironically, if we had better PT, a lot of people would be able to afford that holiday away as they wouldn't be pouring their money into the black hole that is car ownership.

CatInABox

Well this is a surprise, the government has recognised the absolutely, complete obvious issue of our exceptionally poor rail network, and have committed an extra billion in spending over the next five years, separate to the already announced spending.

See here.

The investment in civil engineering programmes for the network will include track relaying, signalling improvements and safety-related initiatives from 2020 to 2024.

The funding is a 40% increase on the previous five-year investment programme from 2014 to 2018, and will be provided through the Infrastructure Manager Multi-Annual Contract (IMMAC).

Now, let's hope it's not spent on something useless like extending the Western Rail Corridor.....

MJohnston

Maybe with the manufacturing PMI numbers in the toilet again, the Tories in charge have finally realised that a bit of capital spending might actually provide some jobs!

cgcsb

Well we'd need about 50 times that to make our rail network suitable for 21st century west European needs. But it's a start. However I'd point out that since there isn't that much spare cash, it won't happen. It's just headline fluff. The dub cork upgrade to allow 2hr journey times was started 2 years ago and quietly abandoned. This will be the same story.

Idbatterim

Is Healy ray looking for an underground for Killarney with the billion ?!

AAAAAAAAA

cgcsb wrote: »

The dub cork upgrade to allow 2hr journey times was started 2 years ago and quietly abandoned. This will be the same story.

There are track works basically every Sunday for it, the issue is the capital spending on this project is about €10m a year, which is in real terms virtually nothing.

LXFlyer

cgcsb wrote: »

Well we'd need about 50 times that to make our rail network suitable for 21st century west European needs. But it's a start. However I'd point out that since there isn't that much spare cash, it won't happen. It's just headline fluff. The dub cork upgrade to allow 2hr journey times was started 2 years ago and quietly abandoned. This will be the same story.

As above the Dublin-Cork line upgrade has NOT been abandoned.

There is an ongoing ballast cleaning programme on various weekends.

There is now a consultation out on eliminating level crossings south of Limerick Junction which should eliminate some permanent speed restrictions.

The new platform at Limerick Junction will deliver improved journey times also.

Shedite27

What sort of journey time reductions would ya get with upgrades?

Sam Russell

Shedite27 wrote: »

What sort of journey time reductions would ya get with upgrades?

Increased frequency might be just as important that improved journey times, plus increased capacity. All three would be great.

lawred2

Sam Russell wrote: »

Increased frequency might be just as important that improved journey times, plus increased capacity. All three would be great.

On the way in from Gatwick last weekend, it struck me how many trains passed us going the opposite way. 5 minutes apart at the very maximum.

AAAAAAAAA

Shedite27 wrote: »

What sort of journey time reductions would ya get with upgrades?

If we're still talking Cork to Dublin, the fastest service is currently 2:15 on the money and works are ongoing to bring it to 2:00.

I believe the actual alignment itself isn't too bad overall at this stage and the speed can feasibly be raised further in some areas without major alterations, good lengths of it are very straight and well graded

L1011

lawred2 wrote: »

On the way in from Gatwick last weekend, it struck me how many trains passed us going the opposite way. 5 minutes apart at the very maximum.

And yet that line is still hideously over-capacity at peak and has its own equivalent of the now defunct MeathOnTrack calling for another line to be reopened as a reliever: https://www.bml2.co.uk/

lawred2

L1011 wrote: »

And yet that line is still hideously over-capacity at peak and has its own equivalent of the now defunct MeathOnTrack calling for another line to be reopened as a reliever: https://www.bml2.co.uk/

I'm sure it is over capacity. But even at that - that capacity surely dwarfs the best that is ever achieved here.

CatInABox

madbeanman wrote: »

When people talk about spurs (like this proposal and a seperate one for a spur on the Lucas into Fingal) I always wonder about the length of the line. What is an optimal length for a Metro? How long is too long?

Just on the spurs thing, they can be useful, but they also impact on the capacity of the "spurred" line. Lets say the original Metrolink proposal got built, with the Metro going all the way out to Sandyford. A spur is then created from SSG out to, I don't know, Firhouse say. You can't increase the frequency in the central shared section of the line, i.e. north of SSG, so you've effectively halved the capacity of the line going out to Sandyford.

You can mess around with the number of trains on each line, but it's still going to be reduced capacity on the existing line.

marno21

CatInABox wrote: »

Well this is a surprise, the government has recognised the absolutely, complete obvious issue of our exceptionally poor rail network, and have committed an extra billion in spending over the next five years, separate to the already announced spending.

See here.



Now, let's hope it's not spent on something useless like extending the Western Rail Corridor.....

99% sure this is Irish Rail’s already announced annual maintenance budget as planned in the NDP being put into the microwave and served as “fresh”

They’ve just announced it as separate to the capital infrastructure funding and the new trains funding

LXFlyer

marno21 wrote: »

99% sure this is Irish Rail’s already announced annual maintenance budget as planned in the NDP being put into the microwave and served as “fresh”

They’ve just announced it as separate to the capital infrastructure funding and the new trains funding

Correct - it is the funding necessary to maintain the existing railways in a safe condition.

Reuben1210

marno21 wrote: »

99% sure this is Irish Rail’s already announced annual maintenance budget as planned in the NDP being put into the microwave and served as “fresh”

They’ve just announced it as separate to the capital infrastructure funding and the new trains funding

I sense an election on the horizon...

cgcsb

LXFlyer wrote: »

As above the Dublin-Cork line upgrade has NOT been abandoned.

There is an ongoing ballast cleaning programme on various weekends.

There is now a consultation out on eliminating level crossings south of Limerick Junction which should eliminate some permanent speed restrictions.

The new platform at Limerick Junction will deliver improved journey times also.

I mean the timeline was abandoned I think it was 2016 to 2018. Several judges later and nada.

cgcsb

As other posters have said, since we're not being told any detail, you can bet that the 1bn isn't new money per say it's the sum of the standard maintenance budget over 5 years plus closing a few level crossings and some other works that were planned anyway.

thomasj

https://www.leinsterleader.ie/news/news/503450/irish-rail-appoint-team-to-prepare-dart-line-for-maynooth-and-leixlip.html

ncounties

I was looking at Google Maps (Satelite View) recently, and I noticed how there is so much green fields right up to Main Street Naas, and I wondered, as a town of 22k+ people, and with almost a blank canvas to it's NW for development, would it not make sense to extend the DART to here eventually.

I really don't believe that extending the DART to Hazelhatch will benefit the M7 a great deal, and Naas is a big contributor to traffic volumes on the route, and to me it just smacks of common sense.

It would require less than four kilometres of rail line (and 16km of electrification from Hazelhatch), but with a little demolition, you could have a DART station on Naas Main Street. You could even add a P&R at Junction 9.

Thoughts?

Qrt

ncounties wrote: »

I was looking at Google Maps (Satelite View) recently, and I noticed how there is so much green fields right up to Main Street Naas, and I wondered, as a town of 22k+ people, and with almost a blank canvas to it's NW for development, would it not make sense to extend the DART to here eventually.

I really don't believe that extending the DART to Hazelhatch will benefit the M7 a great deal, and Naas is a big contributor to traffic volumes on the route, and to me it just smacks of common sense.

It would require less than four kilometres of rail line (and 16km of electrification from Hazelhatch), but with a little demolition, you could have a DART station on Naas Main Street. You could even add a P&R at Junction 9.

Thoughts?

Would be good, but I'd rather focus on getting transport in Dublin itself up to scratch rather than further normalising insane and extremely unsustainable commutes.

ncounties

Qrt wrote: »

Would be good, but I'd rather focus on getting transport in Dublin itself up to scratch rather than further normalising insane and extremely unsustainable commutes.

I don't follow the logic of only prioritising Dublin city centre. Would you be the kind of person that would complain about the lack of foresight that this country has? Then why would we not build heavy rail infrastructure now, in places we can, instead of waiting until that place inevitably grows to twice it's current size, and then we have to try and fit in a light rail system, if at all possible. Tallaght and Swords MKIII.

Additionally, projects like this would help get transport up to scratch in Dublin. You can be sure any morning services would be rammed (as every other commuter line is in the province). Even if only a quarter of those people are former car commuters, and its operating just three services an hour at peak (I assume it would be 4/5 in reality), that is potentially 900 cars less entering Dublin city, or at least using the wider cities road network, and taking up road space that buses could utilise. Potentially 1500 if five services per hour.

Besides, Naas is less than 30km from Dublin's city centre, and even the likes of Berlin has S-Bahn's that go out further than that, and whilst Dublin may not be the size of Berlin now, we should be planning for what the region needs for the next 100+ years.

Qrt

ncounties wrote: »

I don't follow the logic of only prioritising Dublin city centre. Would you be the kind of person that would complain about the lack of foresight that this country has? Then why would we not build heavy rail infrastructure now, in places we can, instead of waiting until that place inevitably grows to twice it's current size, and then we have to try and fit in a light rail system, if at all possible. Tallaght and Swords MKIII.

Additionally, projects like this would help get transport up to scratch in Dublin. You can be sure any morning services would be rammed (as every other commuter line is in the province). Even if only a quarter of those people are former car commuters, and its operating just three services an hour at peak (I assume it would be 4/5 in reality), that is potentially 900 cars less entering Dublin city, or at least using the wider cities road network, and taking up road space that buses could utilise. Potentially 1500 if five services per hour.

Besides, Naas is less than 30km from Dublin's city centre, and even the likes of Berlin has S-Bahn's that go out further than that, and whilst Dublin may not be the size of Berlin now, we should be planning for what the region needs for the next 100+ years.

I never said Dublin City Centre. I just think there’s more important things than a tiny rail extension so a town is slightly closer to a rail service. I can imagine it would end up as part of the overall DART expansion, get delayed by “concerned residents” and delay the whole thing for ages.

D.L.R.

ncounties wrote: »

I don't follow the logic of only prioritising Dublin city centre.

Dublin city centre lacks the capacity for growth. No point building new branches when they can't fit any more trains on the existing core lines through Dublin.