DART+ (DART Expansion)

L1011

murphaph wrote: »

I wonder should all CIE lands be transferred to TII for a modicum of safekeeping. CIE, especially Irish Rail have a terribly track record (pun intended) in this regard.

The substantial subvention of the operating companies by CIE parent company in recent years has been funded by the property arm. Moving it to TII would require a huge increase in apparent subsidy and likely fall foul of EU rules

bk

sdanseo wrote: »

A few have mentioned new stations being mentioned on maps / plans. Is there new propaganda (to steal a phrase from the now decade-old OP) for the DART expansion, other than the Metrolink website?

There was a bit of an overview given in the National Development Plan 2018 - 2027, which included:

- 2 Billion to be spent on Dart Expansion
- Electrification of Maynooth/M3
- Electrification to Hazelhatch
- Electrification to Droghea.
- New station at Heuston West, Cabra and Whitworth Road.

The Metrolink plans gave us a look at what the Whitworth Road station might look like.

No other details beyond the above. I'd suspect we will get a future launch of the DART Expansion plans similar to the Metrolink launch last week.

Seemingly Irish Rail will be placing a large order for new trains in the coming months, including a big expansion in DARTs so we will probably learn more by then.

murphaph

L1011 wrote: »

The substantial subvention of the operating companies by CIE parent company in recent years has been funded by the property arm. Moving it to TII would require a huge increase in apparent subsidy and likely fall foul of EU rules

That's kind of my point. Selling off the family silver to pay for the butler you can't afford rather than letting him go.

loyatemu

thread title should say (not incl Dart Underground), as it's pretty clear it's gone in it's most recent incarnation and won't be returning in the forseeable future.

marno21

loyatemu wrote: »

thread title should say (not incl Dart Underground), as it's pretty clear it's gone in it's most recent incarnation and won't be returning in the forseeable future.

DART Underground is currently in active planning with the NTA performing studies of a redesigned tunnel. The route will be finalised and protected as part of the National Development Plan.

loyatemu

marno21 wrote: »

DART Underground is currently in active planning with the NTA performing studies of a redesigned tunnel. The route will be finalised and protected as part of the National Development Plan.

Will we see this revised plan before 2027?

marno21

Further details beyond my original post haven't been published yet

Ben D Bus

Any suggestion of a new station at Kylemore Road?

There's a huge opportunity to develop a substantial new urban area to the south of the tracks in addition to the population already to the north.

There can't be many other rail connected areas so close to the city that offer such a chance to address both the transport and housing issues we face.

BonnieSituation

The lack of access to rail in Ballyfermot has Always been criminal really given the proximity of the works. I grew up backing on to them and it always annoyed me.

Obviously park West has improved matters somewhat but if dart was to get a proper going on the Kildare line it would be imperative that a station is placed somewhere like at the Kylemore Road Bridge.

The original DU had an Inchicore station in the works at seven oaks i think.

There's justification for both in my eyes.

citizen6

The Lucan Luas was due to have a station at Kylemore Road bridge. If there was a Dart station there too (with DU connections to Christchurch and SSG/Metro) it would almost make the rest of that Luas redundant. It was to join the red line from Blackhorse to Fatima and then run down Thomas St and Dame St. It would be a lot easier to run it to Kylemore road only. Win win? Would an expanded Dart have capacity to take luas-fuls of people getting on at Kylemore Road? I'm assuming Thomas St to City Centre can be handled by busses.

MJohnston

citizen6 wrote: »

The Lucan Luas was due to have a station at Kylemore Road bridge. If there was a Dart station there too (with DU connections to Christchurch and SSG/Metro) it would almost make the rest of that Luas redundant. It was to join the red line from Blackhorse to Fatima and then run down Thomas St and Dame St. It would be a lot easier to run it to Kylemore road only. Win win? Would an expanded Dart have capacity to take luas-fuls of people getting on at Kylemore Road? I'm assuming Thomas St to City Centre can be handled by busses.

Perhaps a topic for another thread, but I've always thought Luas Lucan should branch from the Red Line instead of the previous plan of sending it down Dame Street, as it would be much easier and quicker to implement. I believe one of the original options was to merge between James' and Blackhorse stops and then go in different directions before and after that section. I'd skip the city centre branch for the moment, but pursue the outer part of the branched line and get it built.

Then in the future, rather than building Luas Liberties as a line from College Green through Dame Street and Thomas Street, instead it would be an extension of the then decapitated Green Line from St Stephens Green down Cuffe Street, Kevin Street, Cork Street, and then around along the canal back to merging with the Red Line at Suir Road.

LeinsterDub

MJohnston wrote: »

Perhaps a topic for another thread, but I've always thought Luas Lucan should branch from the Red Line instead of the previous plan of sending it down Dame Street, as it would be much easier and quicker to implement.

That would destroy the frequency.

MJohnston

LeinsterDub wrote: »

That would destroy the frequency.

If you look at the previous Preferred Route, they didn't seem to think that would be a problem:



If that depot near Kylemore is added, you could easily just run trams between Blackhorse and Lucan without intruding on the Red Line section just yet.

citizen6

I'm guessing the red line couldn't handle the extra passengers. But if most/all of them switched to a Dart at Kylemore Road, and the Dart had capacity to take them, it could work.

Any idea of spare capacity on expanded Darts from Hazelhatch without DU?

LXFlyer

MJohnston wrote: »

If you look at the previous Preferred Route, they didn't seem to think that would be a problem

If that depot near Kylemore is added, you could easily just run trams between Blackhorse and Lucan without intruding on the Red Line section just yet.

Given that Red Line loadings are at crush levels already at peak times, how would all of the people from this Lucan Line fit into those trams?

Running these trams along the Red Line from Blackhorse to James would mean a tram on that section almost every 1.5 minutes at peak - totally unworkable, and that’s even before you deal with the lack of full segregation from James to Trinity. If LCC has taught us anything, unless the trams are fully segregated, it’s just not going to work.

This whole proposal is fatally flawed in my view - there simply isn’t the capacity to deliver a reliable and effective service.

A full DART service to/from Hazelhatch via DART Underground is frankly the best option.

MJohnston

LXFlyer wrote: »

Given that Red Line loadings are at crush levels already at peak times, how would all of the people from this Lucan Line fit into those trams?

Running these trams along the Red Line from Blackhorse to James would mean a tram on that section almost every 1.5 minutes at peak - totally unworkable, and that’s even before you deal with the lack of full segregation from James to Trinity. If LCC has taught us anything, unless the trams are fully segregated, it’s just not going to work.

This whole proposal is fatally flawed in my view - there simply isn’t the capacity to deliver a reliable and effective service.

A full DART service to/from Hazelhatch via DART Underground is frankly the best option.

Yeah but DU clearly just isn't going to happen, so it's probably time to start thinking of alternatives. I already mentioned the idea of running from Lucan to Blackhorse only as an initial proposal, which I think would be far more workable.

LXFlyer

MJohnston wrote: »

Yeah but DU clearly just isn't going to happen, so it's probably time to start thinking of alternatives. I already mentioned the idea of running from Lucan to Blackhorse only as an initial proposal, which I think would be far more workable.

Initial idea or not, it’s pointless if people can’t get onto the Red Line trams.

Regardless of what the powers that be think of DU, it is the only realistic option that offers high capacity rapid transit through the city centre on an east/west axis.

We are just kidding ourselves with the various other options to DU, and we are going to pay the price of not developing it for decades to come. It’s frankly pathetic.

blanch152

MJohnston wrote: »

If you look at the previous Preferred Route, they didn't seem to think that would be a problem:



If that depot near Kylemore is added, you could easily just run trams between Blackhorse and Lucan without intruding on the Red Line section just yet.

I have never understood the reasoning behind that route as the Red Line shouldn't be able to handle more traffic.

Why don't they run the Red Line trains down Thomas Street to College Green, and run the Luas Line down the Chapelizod Bypass to Heuston and down to the Point.

The Section down by the side of Steeven's Hospital would then just be used for connecting the two lines or the occasional special.

cgcsb

The Red line will probably be metro-ised in the future by providing a tunnel from St James eastward and making the existing St-James' to Tallaght section more segregated. This will leave a stub luas service from St James to The Point/Ringsend, similar to what's being done with the green line, although with the red line it'll be narrower vehicles for a start. Having it metro-ised, for lack of a better word, will facilitate more spurs

murphaph

If you're going to build an East West tunnel there should be only one contender. Even with no Northern line widening you can turn darts back at Spencer Dock. Not only would the Lucan Luas be redundant so would most existing bus routes in West Dublin.

budhabob

Haven't seen it mentioned anywhere, but the NTA board are supportive of DU. Some other interesting tidbits in the article.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/transport-authority-board-did-not-review-government-metro-announcement-1.3445850?mode=amp

HatchSt

budhabob wrote: »

Haven't seen it mentioned anywhere, but the NTA board are supportive of DU. Some other interesting tidbits in the article.

Hardly a surprise given that it's included in NTA's 2016-2035 transport strategy document.

sdanseo

Again, not much new news. But may be of interest to some.
For the record, response time 46 days. My questions were as below (none were actually answered).

original mail wrote:

1. Why does the government not consider DART underground a priority? The estimated cost is €4bn when there is €116bn being earmarked for infrastructure - surely this element is worth the money given its impossible-to-overstate strategic importance and ability to connect not only all of the city's heavy rail lines with the metro and with a 1-stop change, also to all of the Luas lines? This level of connectivity simply isn't possible by any other way.

2. What is the actual plan for DART expansion without the tunnel when it comes to capacity? The loop line bridge even with the best signalling has a finite capacity. Trains cannot turn for example from the Northern Line towards the Phoenix Park, the rail infrastructure simply does not allow this and there is zero scope to change that layout without massive demolition of housing. How does the minister envisage the DART will run e.g. will it be as 2 seperate lines, 4 seperate lines? And at what frequency?

3. Does the government have ANY indication as to when "future delivery" of the underground interconnector might be able to take place (given that construction would be at least 5 years)?

Minister Ross wrote:

Dear [sdanseo]

Thank you for your recent letter regarding future plans for the DART Underground and the National Development Plan (NDP).

The National Transport Authority's (NTA) 'Transport Strategy for the GDA 2016-2035' proposes implementation of the overall DART Expansion Programme. As outlined in the recently published 'National Development Plan 2018-2027: Project Ireland 2040' (NDP), the DART Expansion Programme is a series of projects that will create a full metropolitan area DART Network​ for Dublin with all of the lines linked and connected over the period of the plan.

The initial sequencing of investment will focus on delivery of non-underground tunnel elements of the programme using the recently opened rail link and existing connector tunnel under the Phoenix Park. This includes buying additional fleet for the DART network and measures such as re-signalling, junction and station changes to provide expanded services. The next step will be to provide fast, high-frequency electrified services to Drogheda on the Northern Line, Celbridge/Hazelhatch on the Kildare Line, Maynooth and M3 Parkway on the Maynooth/Sligo Line, while continuing to provide DART services on the South-Eastern Line as far south as Greystones. It will also include new stations to provide interchange with bus, LUAS and Metro networks.

The significant benefit to using the recently opened rail link and existing connector tunnel under the Phoenix Park and the proposed sequence of investment, is that it will enable additional passenger services to be put in place much earlier using existing infrastructure with some enhancements. This integrated rail network will provide a core, high-capacity transit system for the region and will deliver a very substantial increase in peak-hour capacity on all lines from Drogheda, Maynooth, Celbridge/Hazelhatch and Greystones. The route for the remaining element of the overall DART Expansion Programme, the DART Undeground Tunnel, will be established and protected to allow for its future delivery.

I trust that this addresses your concerns in regard to the future for rail transport.

With best wishes,


Shane Ross

Minister for Transport Tourism and Sport

BonnieSituation

blanch152 wrote: »

I have never understood the reasoning behind that route as the Red Line shouldn't be able to handle more traffic.

Why don't they run the Red Line trains down Thomas Street to College Green, and run the Luas Line down the Chapelizod Bypass to Heuston and down to the Point.

The Section down by the side of Steeven's Hospital would then just be used for connecting the two lines or the occasional special.

As a Lucan resident the last thing I want is this monstrosity. However... With that in mind, if it was to be built it's that dog leg turn in Ballyfermot that has always flummoxed me and I have indeed said it on a few threads before; it should run through Ballyfermot and serve the res of thr population centre down Con Colbert and Island Bridge (which will serve the NE Inchicore and then to join the red line at Heuston.
The travel time from Ballyfermot Centre to the CC (with dog leg) would be inordinate and who would get it to the CC?

As it stands a 79A from Markievicz Park to Ormond Quay can be done in 15-20min on a mediocre day.

If the dogleg was removed and the route taken as suggested and maybe a line running the length of the Kylemore Road servicing Chapelizod to Walkinstown and crossing the Red line, this purple line and the Kylemore Bridge Station you would have merit.

But how about we get Kishoge open first.

marno21

sdanseo wrote: »

Again, not much new news. But may be of interest to some.
For the record, response time 46 days. My questions were as below (none were actually answered).

Exactly the grade of waffle laden uninformed spoof I have come to expect on such an issue

I don't think he answered any of your questions just trotted out the usual civil servant response on the project.

sdanseo

marno21 wrote: »

Exactly the grade of waffle laden uninformed spoof I have come to expect on such an issue

I don't think he answered any of your questions just trotted out the usual civil servant response on the project.

Absolutely. I doubt he even picked up a pen on this or the PQ, some official will have done it for him.

I'm used to seeing political answers to things. But the lack of any effort even to address any of the quite specific questions asked is still pretty dissapointing.

Lord of the Manor can't be bothered dealing with plebians from the Northside.

marno21

sdanseo wrote: »

Absolutely. I doubt he even picked up a pen on this or the PQ, some official will have done it for him.

I'm used to seeing political answers to things. But the lack of any effort even to address any of the quite specific questions asked is still pretty dissapointing.

Lord of the Manor can't be bothered dealing with plebians from the Northside.

Eamon Ryan recently asked Ross "the reason that the DART underground is not included in the National Development Plan; and if the reports on which the decision was made not to include it will be provided."

His response:

Shross wrote:

As the Deputy is aware, the National Transport Authority's (NTA) 'Transport Strategy for the GDA 2016-2035' proposes implementation of the overall DART Expansion Programme. As outlined in the recently published 'National Development Plan 2018-2027: Project Ireland 2040' (NDP), the DART Expansion Programme is a series of projects that will create a full metropolitan area DART Network? for Dublin with all of the lines linked and connected over the period of the plan.

The initial sequencing of investment under the NDP will focus on delivery of non-underground tunnel elements of the Programme using the recently opened rail link and existing connector tunnel under the Phoenix Park (which has provided the option for Kildare commuters to access the city centre stations of Connolly, Tara Street and Pearse). This sequencing and focus includes buying additional fleet for the DART network and measures such as re-signalling, junction and station changes to provide expanded services. The next step will be to provide fast, high-frequency electrified services to Drogheda on the Northern Line, Celbridge/Hazelhatch on the Kildare Line, Maynooth and M3 Parkway on the Maynooth/Sligo Line, while continuing to provide DART services on the South-Eastern Line as far south as Greystones. It will also include new stations to provide interchange with bus, LUAS and Metro networks.

The significant benefit to using the recently opened rail link and existing connector tunnel under the Phoenix Park and the proposed sequence of investment, is that it will enable additional passenger services to be put in place much earlier using existing infrastructure with some enhancements. This integrated rail network will provide a core, high-capacity transit system for the region and will deliver a very substantial increase in peak-hour capacity on all lines from Maynooth and Celbridge/Hazelhatch as well as Drogheda and Greystones. The route for the remaining element of the overall DART Expansion Programme, the DART Undeground Tunnel, will be established and protected to allow for its future delivery.

Does this look familiar?

citizen6

Apologies if this has been discussed before, but with Metro connecting to Dart at Tara, is there any need for Dart Underground to go via Pearse and Stephen's Green? A DU route Docklands-Tara-Christchurch-Heuston-Inchicore would have a few advantages.

Pros:
Single interchange at Tara for Metro and both Dart lines.
One fewer station, no disruption at Pearse or digging up SSG.
Shorter tunnel route, roughly 1km less.
Could tunnel under the south quays rather than under buildings if this is easier (assuming no issue with vibrations affecting liffey quay walls).
Cheaper, quicker build, more likely to happen?

Cons:
New route requires new design work etc.
Tara St station would need be very well laid out to handle the interchanges, and this would impact Metro station construction.

What am I missing?

ricimaki

citizen6 wrote: »

Apologies if this has been discussed before, but with Metro connecting to Dart at Tara, is there any need for Dart Underground to go via Pearse and Stephen's Green? A DU route Docklands-Tara-Christchurch-Heuston-Inchicore would have a few advantages.

Pros:
Single interchange at Tara for Metro and both Dart lines.
One fewer station, no disruption at Pearse or digging up SSG.
Shorter tunnel route, roughly 1km less.
Could tunnel under the south quays rather than under buildings if this is easier (assuming no issue with vibrations affecting liffey quay walls).
Cheaper, quicker build, more likely to happen?

Cons:
New route requires new design work etc.
Tara St station would need be very well laid out to handle the interchanges, and this would impact Metro station construction.

What am I missing?

It would be a very tight turn from Docklands to Tara for a DART train. I don't think it would possible

ricimaki

Actually, if the curve radius was the same as the loop-line bridge, it would be possible. Tara DART underground station would likely have to be designed and built at the same time as the Metrolink station to actually be possible, which is highly unlikely. I do like the idea though