DART+ (DART Expansion)

BonnieSituation

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Just for reference, here are the DART Underground and Metro North business cases in all their unredacted glory, which I recently got via FOI.

Reading the DU case would make you cry

ClovenHoof

The poster who stated that Brexit has really shown the horrors of all past public transport 'plans' and failed start ups is bang on, and Dublin rejection for Frankfurt due to the Dublin Rail Plan/Transport21/everything! being scrapped has really come home to roost .

Not just the politicians, but the entire Irish social pundit model have been shown up for the clowns they are. When Brexit happened all these newspaper journalists were acting like the City of London was on its way to Spencer Dock, and when they found out they were not and the reason was Dublin has no underground rail system the newspaper and media pundits were genuinely stunned and shocked. "underground trains??? metro??? this is why we are not getting the City of London banks???"

Suddenly saving that British Imperial war memorial arch in Stephen's Green faded down their list of social priorities and infrastructure development for the city. Every time I look at that arch and the lack of a DART Underground, I am reminded of how a lunatic like Frank McDonald and his bicycle remains a prime reason why DART Underground was made easier for the politicians to dump. A so called public transport expert no less.

You couldn't make it up.

Logue no2

As mentioned elsewhere we will not have Dart Underground until we have politicians who have the guts to stand up to the Civil Servants who don't want this State to pay for adequate public transport.

Official Ireland is too much under the influence of car firsters like Colm McCarthy and Sean Barratt.

Sam Russell

Logue no2 wrote: »

As mentioned elsewhere we will not have Dart Underground until we have politicians who have the guts to stand up to the Civil Servants who don't want this State to pay for adequate public transport.

Official Ireland is too much under the influence of car firsters like Colm McCarthy and Sean Barratt.

I think the Civil Servants (and the politicians) do not like CIE or any part of it. If DU was standard gauge and metro shaped, it might stand a better chance. But if it looks like a CIE expansion, well then, it must need another cycle of redesign to make it look different - more privately run and less union friendly.

ricimaki

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think the Civil Servants (and the politicians) do not like CIE or any part of it. If DU was standard gauge and metro shaped, it might stand a better chance. But if it looks like a CIE expansion, well then, it must need another cycle of redesign to make it look different - more privately run and less union friendly.

Build it to standard gauge and use automated driverless trains. Convert 2 of the 4 tracks out to Hazelhatch to 1435mm. Run dual gauge track to Clontarf road, where users can change train. Don't let CIE run it on the grounds of monopolistic practices. Unions would love that!

Seriously though, is there any chance it could run driverless trains, if it ever gets built? I'd imagine the signalling would require an upgrade. Could driverless and normal trains run on the same line?

yer man!

Why is such a scheme so expensive to produce here in Ireland versus other Eu countries? Like that porto metro in Portugal cost 3.5 billion and even went over budget, granted they only have 8km underground but has 67km of track in total on multiple lines. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porto_Metro

Then there's Barcelona's system that cost $179m for 5.8km of underground rail.

Like for Dart underground, a system that would be 7.6km long, to cost 3bn.... Whats the reason for it being so expensive here?

Land prices!!!!

yer man!

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Land prices!!!!

I don't buy that tho, 15km of underground rail in Copenhagen is $4bn, a city that is woefully expensive! I know it's comparing apples and oranges but the construction costs here seem vastly overpriced

Reuben1210

yer man! wrote: »

I don't buy that tho, 15km of underground rail in Copenhagen is $4bn, a city that is woefully expensive! I know it's comparing apples and oranges but the construction costs here seem vastly overpriced

Could be to do with procurement of the machinery (tunnel borers etc) to our island vs. Denmark which is connected to the continent. Also, our love for consultants adds to the cost!

newcar2016

In fairness I think the country did well to build all the motorways from Dublin to the other big towns, complete/upgrade the M50 and the Port Tunnel.

But metro and dart underground would make life better for many and attract investment, if it had been built when it was ready maybe Ireland would be in a better position to capitalize on Brexit:mad:

yer man!

Reuben1210 wrote: »

Could be to do with procurement of the machinery (tunnel borers etc) to our island vs. Denmark which is connected to the continent. Also, our love for consultants adds to the cost!

Like even the 4.5km double bore port tunnel was €752 million.

BonnieSituation

Isn't there a rule about land in Spain trhat anything under a certain level say "10 m" is state owned so compensation is negligible unlike in Ireland?

L1011

Port tunnel is quite a lot larger in terms of tunnel size for starters

murphaph

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Isn't there a rule about land in Spain trhat anything under a certain level say "10 m" is state owned so compensation is negligible unlike in Ireland?

Any land registry entries I've ever seen say the rights don't extend to the mines and minerals beneath. Not sure you're entitled to a penny if a tunnel passes 20m under your house.

Chuchote

Where would you(se) connect with the first line?

The first Metro line in Paris, in 1900 ran 15 kilometres from Porte de Vincennes in the southeast to Porte Maillot in the northwest.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Métro_Line_1

By 1920 the Metro looked like this:

McDave

murphaph wrote: »

New propoganda here but it really whets the appetite.....who knows if we'll have the nerve to do it though....

My god. Dart Interconnector. There's a blast from the past. Another initiative to add to our list of public transport failures. We had a chance to build an EU funded 3-line tram system in the late 90s. And we blew it. IIRC, a rail plan including the interconnector was mooted at the time as an alternative.

In reality, there's no reason why we can't have them all, and an infrastructure which we can use to really develop the city. But for my whole adult life, Dublin has been prevaricating and even today has public transport inferior to most half-decent European cities a quarter the size.

We've foregone so many opportunities to talke Dublin forward and now the consequences are about to be crystallised in the Brexit aftermath where I think we'll get little more than crumbs off the table, and the city centre will shambolically meander along its mediocre path. What a sad waste of this city's potential.

Chuchote

Yeah, we could have a city modelled on the best things about Paris and Copenhagen, with a good metro, a network of broad cycleways, wide streets, beautiful parks open to the public…

jd

yer man! wrote: »

Why is such a scheme so expensive to produce here in Ireland versus other Eu countries? Like that porto metro in Portugal cost 3.5 billion and even went over budget, granted they only have 8km underground but has 67km of track in total on multiple lines. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porto_Metro
?

Porto Metro is light rail, Dart Underground would be heavy rail, that means bigger tunnel excavation in Dublin, and bigger stations too
Dart Underground would be twin bore, Porto is single bore.
Not sure of the geological differences either.

Chuchote

jd wrote: »

Porto Metro is light rail, Dart Underground would be heavy rail, that means bigger tunnel excavation in Dublin, and bigger stations too
Dart Underground would be twin bore, Porto is single bore.
Not sure of the geological differences either.

There were howls when they started building the Paris Metro - one of the early names of Paris meant 'Marshy place' and it's awfully sandy underneath a lot of it. But their engineers are good, and they found a way.

jd

Chuchote wrote: »

There were howls when they started building the Paris Metro - one of the early names of Paris meant 'Marshy place' and it's awfully sandy underneath a lot of it. But their engineers are good, and they found a way.

From
https://www.etcg.upc.edu/estudis/aula-paymacotas/granit/ponencies/fonseca.pdf

And there has been a
POPULAR MYTH

An underground metro
would never be a reality
in Porto !!!

The granite is impenetrable?...

antoinolachtnai

jd wrote: »

Porto Metro is light rail, Dart Underground would be heavy rail, that means bigger tunnel excavation in Dublin, and bigger stations too
Dart Underground would be twin bore, Porto is single bore.
Not sure of the geological differences either.

Light rail or heavy rail isn't going to make much difference. Their train sets are 70 meters, which whilst not small isn't enormous either. They used 8m tunnels. These are smaller than the tunnels used in the Dublin Port Tunnel.

There is no real reason not to use a single bore tunnel for DART Underground. The safety differences are really swings-and-roundabouts.

The ground conditions in Porto were very difficult and there were serious accidents as result of the problems that arose. (https://www.etcg.upc.edu/estudis/aula-paymacotas/granit/ponencies/fonseca.pdf)

The Iberian countries have a tradition of turning out train tunnels for a lot less than what they cost in Anglo countries. It seems to come down to method and program management.

Chuchote

Anyway, since no one's answered on my question "where would you connect with the first line", I'll answer it myself. I'd make a shamrock-shaped Metro for a start, with three lines looping west, north and south from the GPO, and their loops intersecting in the centre of each loop. Since Clery's (formerly Clery's and William Martin Murphy's Imperial Hotel) is free now, I'd make that the main station

yer man!

I presume any tendering process would be an EU wide system? So in theory we would have to be getting the best deal for any massive infrastructure project.

antoinolachtnai

yer man! wrote: »

I presume any tendering process would be an EU wide system? So in theory we would have to be getting the best deal for any massive infrastructure project.

Certainly not. Just because you tender something doesn't mean your going to have the best design and the best program level management.

Chuchote

…and if you're in France, you'll only get the job if you're French, so foreign companies don't even bother to tender…

strassenwo!f

Chuchote wrote: »

Anyway, since no one's answered on my question "where would you connect with the first line", I'll answer it myself. I'd make a shamrock-shaped Metro for a start, with three lines looping west, north and south from the GPO, and their loops intersecting in the centre of each loop. Since Clery's (formerly Clery's and William Martin Murphy's Imperial Hotel) is free now, I'd make that the main station

I think a graphic of some kind, of what you envisage, would probably be helpful to the board. It's certainly difficult for me, and maybe also other posters, to readily get what you mean by 'loops intersecting within each loop.'

It's also worth looking at other cities in this regard. Most seem to have started development by building strands through particular areas of the city, then later - while they were busy building other strands, to other areas - they added branches to these strands.

Loops are something which generally come later, when most of the necessary strands and branches have been built. Munich, for example, is a city which has effectively been building loops for some years now, because pretty well all their strands and branches have been built.

My own feeling is that Dublin is still well away from building loops.

tharlear

maybe Hueston, Stephen's green, college green ,O'Connell steet, in a loop? :-)

tharlear

maybe Hueston, Stephen's green, college green ,O'Connell steet, in a loop? :-)

Chuchote

Or north to Swords, west to Tallaght, south to Greystones, with the loops interlooping in the centres of each?

Chuchote

Deedsie wrote: »

Is there anyway to calculate between DART Underground or Metro North, which one would result in the bigger number of private cars removed from the M50 and Dublin city centre?

The thing that removes the most private cars, universally, is good protected cycling infrastructure. If people can cycle to work without encountering cars, they'll do it in large numbers.