Handguns for humane dispatch

Grizzly 45

i dont carry a pistol when hunting ,i was on my way home from work when a local farmer called me .funny story so il tell it .
he also shoots deer ,the goats were in is his father in laws field .taking the rifle out of the gun room i popped the pistol a .22 walther p22 crap i know into my pocket .

when i got to the field he was set up on the goats with his 270 the father in law was there also his son .
there was a big billy a 150 yds out ,he asked me to shoot with him so i said on the count of three 123 ok he counted 1 i fired and kill the billy.

now the crack and the abuse i got .i waited a hour on you at baxxxxd .
thats the only time 45.

So let me get this straight.You took a 22 pistol to go and shoot a wild unprotected animal??In contravention of the pre conditions of your issued cert,as hunting with any type of pistol is totally illegal in Ireland????? :mad:
I am amazed youwould actually admit to that on a public forum!Not to mind that the calibre would be totally unsuitable unless this was for finishing off the goat at point blank range.And if this is true,I am not surprised that you would be anti handgun for humane dispatch as it sounds like you made a Hames of the situation?Or would you like to clarify these points???

A pig sticker BTW is a broad leaf shaped knife,usually a short spear,and takes a hello of alot of skill and practise,not to mind nerve to use properly,and twice as awkward to use in heavy brush as a knife..

we should compare like with like ,im not a big fan of driven shooting exciting and effective as it might be to cull boar and deer.

But they stalk as well over there,and Iam not a fan of driven shoots either,but more from the saftey aspect than the actual shooting of game.

im old school if i cant neck it i dont shoot .

iv made the mistakes at the expense of deer ,that's why i use fast cals rapidly expanding bullets and dogs when stalking.
any mistake that can be made iv done it id say .

So with all that,why dont you just study some anatomy of deer and go for heart shots???100% instant drop dead if done properly.Even a heavy bullet in centre mass will drop a deer no problem?

Grizzly 45

Actually yes with JHP loads it would be a lot more humane.Be also quite happy with a 45ACP or 357magnum in a derringer too for thiswork.

jwshooter

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Actually yes with JHP loads it would be a lot more humane.Be also quite happy with a 45ACP or 357magnum in a derringer too for thiswork.

my argument in a nut shell ,thanks 45

DR6.5

I wonder how lads managed when all they were only able to use were 22-250's all the lads that i stalk with neck shoot and this was due to the fact that they had to use the 22-250 for years.

Grizzly, in relation to chesting animals the majority of animals will run especially if your shooting Sika during the rut, unless you clip the spine which will drop the animal.

As JW said if the average deer stalker shoots 15-20 animals a year how many of them would need to be dispacthed by using a pistol, maybe 3-4, in my opinion you dont need a pistol.

In my experience if your chesting animals, if you put the bullet in the engine room the animal is dead whether it runs or is dropped on the spot where as if your necking animals on occasions you will get an animal thats neck is broke but cant go anywhere which you then have to bleed.

As i said before from what i have seen and heard pistols seem to be a novelty, as for lads using humane dispatch as a reason to have a pistol in my opinion its not a valid reason and is hardly going to be accepted as a valid reason for having a pistol.

Grizzly 45

I wonder how lads managed when all they were only able to use were 22-250's all the lads that i stalk with neck shoot and this was due to the fact that they had to use the 22-250 for years.

And how many deer were injured or cripled by the use of this ridicilous calibre or by bad shot placement?

Grizzly, in relation to chesting animals the majority of animals will run especially if your shooting Sika during the rut, unless you clip the spine which will drop the animal.

Dunno about that.I've shot reds on the Continent and they have dropped like rocks with a heart shot.It is the SOP for shooting over there.Saying you neck shoot would get you some looks.


As JW said if the average deer stalker shoots 15-20 animals a year how many of them would need to be dispacthed by using a pistol, maybe 3-4, in my opinion you dont need a pistol.

As i said before from what i have seen and heard pistols seem to be a novelty, as for lads using humane dispatch as a reason to have a pistol in my opinion its not a valid reason and is hardly going to be accepted as a valid reason for having a pistol.

Not trying to be smart here or deriding your opinion,but it seems the weight of the majority of the EU laws on humane dispatch and hunting ethics is weighing against you here in Ireland..Even handgun banned UK there is good reason to posses one.

I think myself this arguement is more deeper than just "a handgun isnt needed for stalking." Is ir more,a personal grudge against them from bad experiance,inept use of one,and personal bias than actual need or use??
It is most unusual that anyone would deride or shoot down an aid to their hobby or profession??But then we have a fierce resistance to things that we are personally biased against here.

jwshooter

at the end of the day if your rifle shooting is so poor that you feel you require a pistol to sort out ,get one .

but not G17 ,STI, HK OR CZ. a single shot 32 or 38 like the ones a vet might use.

if there is guards reading this and i hope there is take note.

Grizzly 45

but not G17 ,STI, HK OR CZ. a single shot 32 or 38 like the ones a vet might use.

if there is guards reading this and i hope there is take note.

[/QUOTE]

Ummmm.Does this include your .22 Goat shooting expedition???
I and no doubt others are still none the wiser as to wether you used a rifle or .22 pistol on that?Considering that sounds well out of line,maybe the Gardai would like a word on this??

When all is said and done JW ,you personally just seem to have a problem with pistol ownership anyway???

jwshooter

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Ummmm.Does this include your .22 Goat shooting expedition???
I and no doubt others are still none the wiser as to wether you used a rifle or .22 pistol on that?Considering that sounds well out of line,maybe the Gardai would like a word on this??

When all is said and done JW ,you personally just seem to have a problem with pistol ownership anyway???[/QUOTE]

i have no problem with pistol owner ship in the right hands or any firearm for that matter again in the right hands.

if you know any thing about pistols you should know what a p22 is.

also you would be allowed by law to dispatch a injured or wounder deer with a .22lr .
so a .22 would be allowed as a dispatch gun as you can dispatch a injured with a shotgun if thats all you have at hand.

have you ever shot deer with a pistol ? have you ever tried to hit a moving tennis ball with a pistol ?.

Grizzly 45

i have no problem with pistol owner ship in the right hands or any firearm for that matter again in the right hands.

What do you classify as the "right hands"?? It seems to be very specific and only qualified to your specifications??

if you know any thing about pistols you should know what a p22 is.

Walther P22.22lr..DAO steel slide,polymer frame 10shots? generally a POS jam-a-matic,going by many owners here .That the one??

also you would be allowed by law to dispatch a injured or wounder deer with a .22lr .

yet,you are argueing that it is an experts job with an even bigger caliber,and you have the expertise to do it with a.22??? I dont understand this kind of logic.You shoot and want the biggest calibre going to kill,yet if it comes to ending it quickly you want pipsqueak calibres and say it can be done with ease???

so a .22 would be allowed as a dispatch gun as you can dispatch a injured with a shotgun if thats all you have at hand.

Right,but I generally dont go deer hunting with a .22 or a 12gauge around here.And unless you have a combo gun or Drilling here it is abit much to be lugging two long guns along?

have you ever shot deer with a pistol

Nope,but been present when a stalker in Germany did it on a driven shoot injured deer,[spine shot,]and one wild boar on a later shoot in a dense pine tree cover.Where unless you were using a pistol or a shot pistol,you would have been at a very dangerous disadvantage. S&W 357mag snubbie.

have you ever tried to hit a moving tennis ball with a pistol

Sorry...What has that got to do with humane dispatch???

jwshooter

if a animal is trashing and jumping about your target area is smaller than a tennis ball.

you have ruined any argument you might have had by wanting to use your glock 9mm and a 45acp as a dispatch tool .

pajero2005

Regarding humane dispatch.

If a wounded animal bolts for cover would it not take the same time period to relocate yourself (the shooter) to a new shooting position with a good sight line and still be a safe distance for shooting it with your rifle, as it would to get to it with your pistol and finish the job? Or is it simply a case of the animal being in cover that is simply too dense to shoot into?

I have never went deer shooting....(yet) so I'm not speaking from experience here. Hence I do not have an opinion on carrying a pistol when stalking. Just trying to educate myself.

kakashka

I shoot a lot of deer,i dont have a handgun of any kind myself and can honestly say i cant imagine myself ever needing one
In my experience of wounded animals it's generally been the result of an adrenalised, nervous or over anxious hunter who is in my opinion not the right person to be in possesion of said handgun
There may be a case for someone who is making a living from tourist stalkers etc where again in my experience such hunters pull first and think last leaving the agent to tidy up the mess
I'm not against handguns at all,would love a simple .22 for poppin paper
but as far as humane dispatch goes well i think one would/should need a very strong case for it
Havin said all that the OP did say he was considering humane dis as an excuse to aquire a handgun licence which is at least ethically wrong and maby even illegal??

kakashka

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

injured or cripled by the use of this ridicilous calibre .

Not at all trying to pick a fight but would like to know your reasoning behind such a statement??

357

jwshooter wrote: »

hi i will gladly continue the debate with you.


as a stalker you take clients out and give instruction to aspiring stalkers ,are you a accredited witness for the dmq .
i have done this course over 10 years ago now and found it very informative
blue thomas and dominic griffiths were my instructions for one and a guy call bill johnston did my no two with.

you say your a professional stalker and use your pistol in the course of your work,thats fine i have no problem with that.

what my problem in guys using a loophole to keep or get a pistol by saying that they want it for dispatching deer.

now if in the uk guys get pistols that dont use them for there intended purpose.thats were your pistol could fall foul of them.

very much like what happened hear with practical shooting they fxxxed it up for every one.

you say you have used your pistol once in the course you stalking career ,could you have solved the problem with out a pistol?

if we started licencing pistols for dispatch they should be single shot 32s and the ammo should be limited to 20 bullets at a time.

Dear jwshooter

Good to hear yo wish to continue debate.

I do not agree with limiting the humane pistol to 32 as this is under powered, we have rules with regards to deer calibres for a reason, you can not therefore use the argument of bullet placement, a large fallow buck in full rut and injured is a very dangerous animal, I can not get too close because of the antlers and I can not stand back too far as it maybe in undergrowth or under a car, but I need to know that my shot from the 357 will be decisive as I have a responsibility to the animal and more importantly to the members of the public and the Police, I am considering a 44 or 45. And under no circumstances should we be limited to 20 rounds, firstly they would be prohibitivley expensive because no one would stock large quantities. More importantly we would all be at risk of losing the use of firearms what ever the type or calibre, if we are to be entrusted with a firearm it should not matter how many or what calibre. I have been granted a FAC and I do not expect to go running to the Police evey time I want to shoot, providing I remain within the law and the conditions of my FAC it is no business of the police what I do, the only time I inform them is when I shoot foxes in built up areas or schools etc.

The more people own firearms the stronger we are, owning firearms should be seen as normal not to be ashamed of, the few people who misuse or abuse our right to own and use firearms will pay their own price, I do not intend to pay the price of losing my firearms because someone who has gone AWOL. The majority of those who have made that choice of which there are mercivly very few and have used illegal/un-registered firearms. The responce by the government was to ban a class of firearm that was not used in these circumstances, only having 20 rounds would have changed nothing.

The point I am making is this; if we go cap in hand to the Police or government then we are bound to be turned down, we should as I do, hold our head up and exercise our rights. The group which has least reason to own firearms would be target shooters, but I would always support their right to own and shoot at targets and you would not expect a target shooter to be happy with 20 rounds.

I have not moved away from the topic as it is all related, use or lose it

Tom

Grizzly 45

I do not agree with limiting the humane pistol to 32 as this is under powered, we have rules with regards to deer calibres for a reason, you can not therefore use the argument of bullet placement, a large fallow buck in full rut and injured is a very dangerous animal, I can not get too close because of the antlers and I can not stand back too far as it maybe in undergrowth or under a car, but I need to know that my shot from the 357 will be decisive as I have a responsibility to the animal and more importantly to the members of the public and the Police

,


Kakashka,
Answerd for me...:)
Thks 357

Grizzly 45

jwshooter wrote: »

if a animal is trashing and jumping about your target area is smaller than a tennis ball.

you have ruined any argument you might have had by wanting to use your glock 9mm and a 45acp as a dispatch tool .

And you still havent answerd the question did you shoot the goat with a .22 pistol or your rifle????Your story isnt very clear,despite numerous re readings of it by me..
Nor have you answerd why you think a .22 or .32 is adequate and humane to even deal with your above situation???
And an animal jumping and thrashing around is not going to go down quicker with the pipsqueak cals you suggest??Or be any easier to hit,or in that situation you think a knife or rifle will be safer to use??

So speaking of losing arguements......:rolleyes:

rrpc

357 wrote: »

The group which has least reason to own firearms would be target shooters

In your opinion

ejg

I would not underestimate 32 cal. Amongst many other things, my father knocked a wounded kudu with one at about 25yds. That was the small 32 browning or 32 auto out of a small mauser pocket pistol.
Much better than the 32 browning would of course be the 7.63 Mauser or 7.62x25 Tokarew. These will penetrate bone much better than a 357 mag that has had bullets bouncing off boar skulls if at the wrong angle and possibly wrong bullet choice.
As far as I know when the C96 pistol was developed they had as an requirement that the bullet must penetrate the skull of a horse at 400m.
Don't know if they tried to prove that though.
Early FBI tests about killing power with pistols showed that the high speed 30 cal mauser put down a steer much better than any other including the 44mag. That was not the result that they where looking for and gave up the steer testing.

edi

jwshooter

fiattech wrote: »

just wanted to know if i should withdraw my application for a .22 browning buckmark pistol wich i submitted to my local super 01/01/09 rather than have it refused. i also wanted to know if it is true that you can have a pistol if you hunt deer for safty reasons to finish off an animal at close range rather than using your high power rifle .?

why did this guy look for a pistol ? for humane dispatch?

jwshooter

fiattech wrote: »

im sorry jwshooter if i am "the biggest waist of space in the country side" but i was only looking for a loophole in this new law that i could penetrate maybe we all should think outside the box on this one.

NO

fiattech

jwshooter wrote: »

why did this guy look for a pistol ? for humane dispatch?

i didn't

jwshooter

fiattech wrote: »

i didn't

in your own words ,your looking for a loophole in this new law

fiattech

jwshooter wrote: »

why did this guy look for a pistol ? for humane dispatch?

like i said JWSHOOTER i did NOT look for a pistol for humane dispatch. When you see this ?????? at the end of a sentence it's called a question, yes that's right i asked a question. Remind me not to bother me Bxxxox again..

IRLConor

Both of you, calm down and be polite to each other. Treat each other with respect or you'll be taking a long break from the forum.

jwshooter

fiattech wrote: »

like i said JWSHOOTER i did NOT look for a pistol for humane dispatch. When you see this ?????? at the end of a sentence it's called a question, yes that's right i asked a question. Remind me not to bother me Bxxxox again..

not originally ,but if the loophole existed every one with a pistol that has a licenced deer cal .wound jump on the band wagon and fxxk it up for every one that would genuinely have use for one.

kakashka

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

,


Kakashka,
Answerd for me...:)
Thks 357

Your comment was directed at 22-250
A legal deer calibre.

It wasn't me!

Was flicking through the CIC stand record books at the game fair in Ballinlough the other day and there were some stunning trophies taken with small calibres by a German chap. .22-250, 5.6x57, all sorts like that. It'll do the job, but the .22 hornet has killed an enormous number of very big deer in its time. Doesn't make it a suitable deer calibre though. It'd be legal to take a red stag with a .22-250, but you'd have difficulty getting most people to agree it's a good round for the job. Plenty of people wouldn't even advise a .243 for big red stags. It's all a question of personal stipulations with regard to an accepted margin for error.

kakashka

It wasn't me! wrote: »

the .22 hornet has killed an enormous number of very big deer in its time.

And continues to kill an enormous amount of deer!!

Some of the biggest Red's i've seen were taken by 22-250,while i believe accuracy,knowing your limitations and skill are most important i would also accept the fact that there must be room for error(hence heart/lung shot also)
Knowing what you and equip are capable of is key IMHO

fiattech

IRLConor wrote: »

Both of you, calm down and be polite to each other. Treat each other with respect or you'll be taking a long break from the forum.

Point taken IRLCONOR

zulu_dawn

fiattech

see links for BASC article on handguns for humane dispatch.

http://www.basc.org.uk/en/utilities/document-summary.cfm/docid/2DB22D3A-BE08-44D5-AFE52DB6B141280A

in the basc website type 'handguns for humane dispatch'
http://www.basc.org.uk