Handguns for humane dispatch

Sparks

jwshooter wrote: »

why do you keep bring up john griffen ,he has culled more deer than most lads will see in a life time and is a professional ranger.

Exactly, and he thinks it's a good idea. If someone who does this for a living (a) can take a shot and have the deer not drop dead on the spot, and (b) thinks a pistol is better than a knife for the humane dispatch because there's less risk of getting kicked, gored or killed; then (a) I think anyone can make a mistake, and (b) I think everyone should use a pistol instead of a knife.

DR6.5

Have to agree with JW, you have enough in a centrefire rifle and a knife to kill a deer, i was talking to my gundealer during the week and he was saying that there are a lot of lads trying to get rid of their pistols, they only bought them more as a novelty than to actually use them, i know a couple of lads that have pistols that are never used.

Even if you were allowed to use them i wouldnt use one, its another gadget that you dont need, ive heard of lads using them when deerstalking again its just so they can say that they have used a pistol to dispatch an animal.

Grizzly 45

jwshooter wrote: »

so what do you do with your rifle when you crawling around pistol drawn.

How about putting it down,slinging it on your sling,or hanging it on a tree.

i have used a rifle and knife to dispatch deer for years with out use of a pistol ,i never brought my HK stalking .

a sharp knife into the atlas joint in the back of the animals head its dead in a second this the way i kill all my deer.

Correct on the killing point.
However once you have had an antler thru the hand and tendon damage,you might reconsider this method. I know three pro stalkers this has happened to.

some continental hunters do carry pistols,for boar mostly .unlike us all hear continental hunters have to have access to a trained tracking dog.

And that exactly has to do with what??A dog is for tracking not for holding the game,at least not under our hunting laws.And for boar ,if you have hunted them in close cover for a coup de grace shot you will appreciate a pistol more than a rifle.Ditto for deer.It is not a hunting firearm a pistol it is a dispatch tool.As it is illegal to hunt with them in the EU.

very few uk hunter use a pistol and its all most always a single shot 38.

Hmm last time I heard in Scotland they had a big court case RE aquiring a S&W 357 snubbie by some stalkers.After the CC has suggested things like shooting with a rifle at close range or killing deer with a hammer.

best not talk about the US of A .

Why ever not??We always like to compare "gun culture USA " to our problems here??

my dog will catch and kill a injured deer in cover or hold it to bay if its a big stag by barking at it.

Make sure then that you dont get arrested then by NPWS .As that could be construed by many as an illegal act.Using a dog to "hold" game.

experience has told me there is no use for pistols when stalking.

And others,many others have found ita most useful and humane dispatch tool.If you dont want to carry one fine.No one is holding you at gunpoint to do so.However dont deny the option to others,and God alone knows if we are to salvage somthing of this disaster,it doesnt help to be saying that one main use in Europe for handguns isnt valid here.

jwshooter

Sparks wrote: »

Exactly, and he thinks it's a good idea. If someone who does this for a living (a) can take a shot and have the deer not drop dead on the spot, and (b) thinks a pistol is better than a knife for the humane dispatch because there's less risk of getting kicked, gored or killed; then (a) I think anyone can make a mistake, and (b) I think everyone should use a pistol instead of a knife.

so your in favor of recreational stalkers getting pistols.

a guy killing a lot of deer will have a problem at times but has the experience to solve the problem with out a pistol.
a guy shooting a few deer having a lot of runners ,its range time and learn to place your bullet better.

so you think everyone should use a pistol instead of a knife ,statement of the decade .from some one that has never shot a deer .

i have killed a few and i was only kicked once by a hind but it was my fault ,i had a knife close on me this year killing a sika stag again my fault.

you have no argument and stop bring john into this he will not thank you .

Sparks

jwshooter wrote: »

so your in favor of recreational stalkers getting pistols.

No, I'm in favour of listening to the considered opinion of experts. They are in favour of using pistols for humane dispatch.

a guy shooting a few deer having a lot of runners ,its range time and learn to place your bullet better.

What about a guy shooting a few deer who only has the one runner because of something that was unforeseeable (a last minute flinch or a defective round or something along those lines)? You're going on and on about how "recreational" hunters are incompetent shots and professional stalkers aren't; but you're ignoring completely the case where a competent shot doesn't do the job through no fault of anyone.

,statement of the decade .from some one that has never shot a deer

Are we back to the sly digs? Or is your argument so weak that you can't stand by it and not only have to get a dig in, but also have to make up what the other person is saying?

jwshooter

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

How about putting it down,slinging it on your sling,or hanging it on a tree.





Correct on the killing point.
However once you have had an antler thru the hand and tendon damage,you might reconsider this method. I know three pro stalkers this has happened to.


And that exactly has to do with what??A dog is for tracking not for holding the game,at least not under our hunting laws.And for boar ,if you have hunted them in close cover for a coup de grace shot you will appreciate a pistol more than a rifle.Ditto for deer.It is not a hunting firearm a pistol it is a dispatch tool.As it is illegal to hunt with them in the EU.



Hmm last time I heard in Scotland they had a big court case RE aquiring a S&W 357 snubbie by some stalkers.After the CC has suggested things like shooting with a rifle at close range or killing deer with a hammer.


Why ever not??We always like to compare "gun culture USA " to our problems here??



Make sure then that you dont get arrested then by NPWS .As that could be construed by many as an illegal act.Using a dog to "hold" game.


And others,many others have found ita most useful and humane dispatch tool.If you dont want to carry one fine.No one is holding you at gunpoint to do so.However dont deny the option to others,and God alone knows if we are to salvage somthing of this disaster,it doesnt help to be saying that one main use in Europe for handguns isnt valid here.

team work and a well placed bullet .

jwshooter

Sparks wrote: »

No, I'm in favour of listening to the considered opinion of experts. They are in favour of using pistols for humane dispatch.What about a guy shooting a few deer who only has the one runner because of something that was unforeseeable (a last minute flinch or a defective round or something along those lines)? You're going on and on about how "recreational" hunters are incompetent shots and professional stalkers aren't; but you're ignoring completely the case where a competent shot doesn't do the job through no fault of anyone. Are we back to the sly digs? Or is your argument so weak that you can't stand by it and not only have to get a dig in, but also have to make up what the other person is saying?

so now your not in favour of recreational stalkers using pistols to dispatch deer.

what experts ,o john griffen again .

i know all the professional stalkers in wicklow none of them own a pistol bar jg .
coillte do not allow any one to carry a pistol on there lands ,paddy the farmer will give permission to shoot a few deer on the place he might even sign your deer hunting licence will he put it in writing that he allows you to use a pistol an his lands ?
now we all have pistols for dispatch of all these wounded deer .what call will it be a single shot 32or38 ? ,feck no 9mm glocks or HKs o another problem can only get solids for it they will not expand !.

my argument is coming from some one that has culled a lot of deer and seen a lot shot over the years.
where is yours coming form ? o right jg said it .

i dont get involved in talking about shooting target rifles at 25m as i dont know any thing about it other than what i have heard.

fiattech

jwshooter wrote: »

guys looking for loop holes to keep pistols ,using deer dispatch as a excuse what a crock of xxxx..

you are missing my point. its ok for you guys who get to keep your pistols but what about everyone else who got shafted by the minister for justice why cant i look for a loophole and enjoy target pistol shooting just like you ?

jwshooter

fiattech wrote: »

you are missing my point. its ok for you guys who get to keep your pistols but what about everyone else who got shafted by the minister for justice why cant i look for a loophole and enjoy target pistol shooting just like you ?

your missing the point , i could have used this excuse and claimed i wanted it for dispatching deer it would have not been a problem ,i did not i left it in to be sold.
as i have never used a pistol to kill a injured deer .

im just after thinking of some thing ,about 4 years ago a local farmer rang me some one and let a dozen billy goats out on a hill they were in his corn .
we shot 5-6 out of it a nanny was badly hit and was only after getting my first pistol and had it with me as ya do ,well i tried to head shoot her .lets just say its not like in the movies .
shot her with the 25,06 in the end.
if you want to keep your pistol join a target club not a deer lease.

IRLConor

I've moved the "debate" on handguns for humane dispatch out of the main CJB thread.

foxshooter243

How this"debate" is viewed elsewhere:




http://www.sagbni.co.uk/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=72&OB=DESC

Grizzly 45

[]

team work and a well placed bullet .[/quote]

Nic pic.:)
But lets expand this arguement outside Ireland,as we are a minority in Europe anyway.How do you justify your position JW when the MAJORITY of the EU countries actually MANDATE by law that stalkers or big game driven shoots,that at least one person must have a large calibre handgun with them for dispatch??It kind of puts you in the minority with the rest of the EU.Fine,if they only say derringers,[but not in a pipsqueak 32 cal please].But seening that now all big cal liscenses are out.We are stuck with the Glocks,HKs etc.

So now with your goat story,you just contradicted yourself by saying you never carried your HK hunting..So which is it??And how "wasnt it like in the movies" seeing that goats are pretty tough anyway to drop,and was it a downed animal or one still able to move and run??It sounds like you didnt use the handgun in its intended role.Dispatch when down.
Also ,now this thing about everyone dropping in their pistols to be sold....Where??and to Whom?? and What price???

I've seen a couple of beauties that I wouldnt mind,but due to the liscensing system,that wont happen and some people would want to cop on to their prices they are looking for here.They are practically 3/4 devalued and gun dealers dont seem to be too arsed in shifting them either. So my point being,wouldnt you at least be better off holding onto yours and claiming at least a justifiable reason for owning and using it?

Also inc is the proper knive for dispatching deer Called a "Hirsh fanger" or trans a deer catcher.You are talking a bayonet length blade that is job specific and is not the easiest thing to learn to use properly either.

Sparks

IRLConor wrote: »

I've moved the "debate" on handguns for humane dispatch out of the main CJB thread.

Might bump it into Hunting as well, since it's more that than anything else.

IRLConor

Sparks wrote: »

Might bump it into Hunting as well, since it's more that than anything else.

Done.

Shane_C

fiattech wrote: »

just wanted to know if i should withdraw my application for a .22 browning buckmark pistol wich i submitted to my local super 01/01/09 rather than have it refused. i also wanted to know if it is true that you can have a pistol if you hunt deer for safty reasons to finish off an animal at close range rather than using your high power rifle .?

Sounds a bit scarface to me

Grizzly 45

An M16/M203 might be more in line for that.:pac:

jwshooter

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

[]

team work and a well placed bullet .

Nic pic.:)
But lets expand this arguement outside Ireland,as we are a minority in Europe anyway.How do you justify your position JW when the MAJORITY of the EU countries actually MANDATE by law that stalkers or big game driven shoots,that at least one person must have a large calibre handgun with them for dispatch??It kind of puts you in the minority with the rest of the EU.Fine,if they only say derringers,[but not in a pipsqueak 32 cal please].But seening that now all big cal liscenses are out.We are stuck with the Glocks,HKs etc.

So now with your goat story,you just contradicted yourself by saying you never carried your HK hunting..So which is it??And how "wasnt it like in the movies" seeing that goats are pretty tough anyway to drop,and was it a downed animal or one still able to move and run??It sounds like you didnt use the handgun in its intended role.Dispatch when down.
Also ,now this thing about everyone dropping in their pistols to be sold....Where??and to Whom?? and What price???

I've seen a couple of beauties that I wouldnt mind,but due to the liscensing system,that wont happen and some people would want to cop on to their prices they are looking for here.They are practically 3/4 devalued and gun dealers dont seem to be too arsed in shifting them either. So my point being,wouldnt you at least be better off holding onto yours and claiming at least a justifiable reason for owning and using it?

Also inc is the proper knive for dispatching deer Called a "Hirsh fanger" or trans a deer catcher.You are talking a bayonet length blade that is job specific and is not the easiest thing to learn to use properly either.[/QUOTE]

i dont carry a pistol when hunting ,i was on my way home from work when a local farmer called me .funny story so il tell it .
he also shoots deer ,the goats were in is his father in laws field .taking the rifle out of the gun room i popped the pistol a .22 walther p22 crap i know into my pocket .

when i got to the field he was set up on the goats with his 270 the father in law was there also his son .
there was a big billy a 150 yds out ,he asked me to shoot with him so i said on the count of three 123 ok he counted 1 i fired and kill the billy.

now the crack and the abuse i got .i waited a hour on you at baxxxxd .
thats the only time 45.
in nz they use pig stickers a lot .

we should compare like with like ,im not a big fan of driven shooting exciting and effective as it might be to cull boar and deer.

im old school if i cant neck it i dont shoot .

iv made the mistakes at the expense of deer ,that's why i use fast cals rapidly expanding bullets and dogs when stalking.
any mistake that can be made iv done it id say .

BornToKill

fiattech wrote: »

you are missing my point. its ok for you guys who get to keep your pistols but what about everyone else who got shafted by the minister for justice why cant i look for a loophole and enjoy target pistol shooting just like you ?

Why can't you? Just join a target shooting club. Why would you try to pretend humane dispatch of deer is the reason when you want to target shoot and that is a good reason?

Apart from anything else, a single shot .32 with the sights filed off will do for dispatch for those who think it is necessary, and clearly everyone doesn't. By the way, what did deer stalkers do for humane dispatch from 1972 to 2004?

Grizzly 45

Apart from anything else, a single shot .32 with the sights filed off will do for dispatch for those who think it is necessary, and clearly everyone doesn't. By the way, what did deer stalkers do for humane dispatch from 1972 to 2004?

[/QUOTE]
.BTK,I would say there are some horror stories out there in that time,that if told would give ICABS&Co a field day.I've heard of axes and ball pien hamers being used,and hopefully those are atypcal[sic]
I would also have to ask,are we in breach of EU animal welfare rules nowadays,by not stipulating that the stalker has a method and means for humane dispatch on him when hunting???And a specified calibre to use?

357

Dear fiattech

Yes you should not send this application fro a .22 handgun on the grounds that .22 is not adeer leagal calibre, you should however reapply for a minimum of .32 other than that the choice is yours, I use a 357 magnum smith & wesson for humane despatch.

Read the BASC document on handguns for humane despatch and the Police Firearms guide, from cover to cover.

Tom 357

357

Sorry

I live in England and you are so wrong. If you have "goodreason" and have been refused then it maybe from the stand point of an "objector which is not a reason to refuse

357 tom

jwshooter

as deer stalkers were not as restricted as your selves in the uk hear.

by guys using a humane dispatch of deer excuse to gain asses to a pistol or to keep a pistol ,that they will use only once in a blue moon if at all.
is bring unwanted attention on us .

when some one stopped in a public place ,or parking up the vehicle on the side of the road with a loaded pistol strapped to them or a member sees a pistol and rings the cops .
we will all suffer.

we will end up like the uk where armed response unites are called out to challenge deer stalkers or having to ring the local cop shop every time we want to go stalking.

a question for you tom 357 are you a professional stalker ,do you kill many deer a year .
how many times a year would you have to use your 357 as a last resort.
would it be 1 in 20 ==1 in 5 ?

357

Dear jwshooter.

Thank you for thereply. I worked out that i use my 357 on average once per week, so 50 plus a year, plus livestock when required. I also take clients out or train would be stalkers. Yes I am a perofessional stalker ane have only needed my 357 on one occassion, my toughts are that if you regularly need to humanely kill injured deer you have shot then their is a flaw in your training and abilities. tom243win@yahoo.co.uk

Tom

jwshooter

357 wrote: »

Dear jwshooter.

Thank you for thereply. I worked out that i use my 357 on average once per week, so 50 plus a year, plus livestock when required. I also take clients out or train would be stalkers. Yes I am a perofessional stalker ane have only needed my 357 on one occassion, my toughts are that if you regularly need to humanely kill injured deer you have shot then their is a flaw in your training and abilities. tom243win@yahoo.co.uk

Tom

hi tom, you use it to dispatch deer ,50 plus times a year or live stock .
is it your clients animals you use it on .
and you used it once your self .

are you on red,roe
and what breed of dog are you using .

welcome to the site

357

Dear jwshooter

Thanks again for reply.

You give the impression that evrybody has to run their reasoning passed you before we can exercise our rights.

The breed of dog is irelevant to tis disscussion as is the deer species, an injured deer is an injured deer. The once I refered was a deer I had shot.

You area proaching this debate from the stand point of an objector.

Tom

357

jwshooter wrote: »

hi tom, you use it to dispatch deer ,50 plus times a year or live stock .
is it your clients animals you use it on .
and you used it once your self .

are you on red,roe
and what breed of dog are you using .

welcome to the site

Dear jwshooter

I had hped we could continue our debate

Tom

jwshooter

hi i will gladly continue the debate with you.


as a stalker you take clients out and give instruction to aspiring stalkers ,are you a accredited witness for the dmq .
i have done this course over 10 years ago now and found it very informative
blue thomas and dominic griffiths were my instructions for one and a guy call bill johnston did my no two with.

you say your a professional stalker and use your pistol in the course of your work,thats fine i have no problem with that.

what my problem in guys using a loophole to keep or get a pistol by saying that they want it for dispatching deer.

now if in the uk guys get pistols that dont use them for there intended purpose.thats were your pistol could fall foul of them.

very much like what happened hear with practical shooting they fxxxed it up for every one.

you say you have used your pistol once in the course you stalking career ,could you have solved the problem with out a pistol?

if we started licencing pistols for dispatch they should be single shot 32s and the ammo should be limited to 20 bullets at a time.

Grizzly 45

[

very much like what happened hear with practical shooting they fxxxed it up for every one.

:rolleyes::rolleyes: Despite all evidence to the contray.

if we started licencing pistols for dispatch they should be single shot 32s and the ammo should be limited to 20 bullets at a time.

[/QUOTE]
God! You do want to make sure the animal suffers abit more then dont you???:rolleyes:

Grizzly 45

.

by guys using a humane dispatch of deer excuse to gain asses to a pistol or to keep a pistol ,that they will use only once in a blue moon if at all.
is bring unwanted attention on us .

WHY is this such a bad thing JW??????????
WHAT unwanted attention????

when some one stopped in a public place ,or parking up the vehicle on the side of the road with a loaded pistol strapped to them or a member sees a pistol and rings the cops .
we will all suffer.

How???AS this person will no doubt be liscensed and carrying the paperwork to prove such???If the Gardai are aware that there are liscenses out there for stalkers....It is hardly likely that criminals and terrorists are going to be carrying their hardware openly around the place. Have YOU ever been met by the ERU JW when out shooting??Doubtful that you ever will be either.

we will end up like the uk where armed response unites are called out to challenge deer stalkers or having to ring the local cop shop every time we want to go stalking.

Thats more caused by hysterical townies who have moved to the country,and dont know the first thing about it thinking that Al Quieda are off stalking the fields of Kent with shotguns.:rolleyes:..Or some anti with a grudge wanting to make life difficult for hunters in their area.
In all fairness our lot have abit more cop on[no pun intended] when it comes to shooting and folks walking around the countryside with guns.

jwshooter

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

[


:rolleyes::rolleyes: Despite all evidence to the contray.

God! You do want to make sure the animal suffers abit more then dont you???:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

and what would suggest o your glock 9mm