The Sub 3 Support Thread

yaboya1

Berlin Report here: 2:59:11

WithCheesePlease

Calvin Johnson wrote: »

Well done Cheesy but why was your target down at 3:08??

I had originally put my target down as 2:59 but later changed my mind after I got a wave of self-doubt and put it back to a conservative 7:10 min/mile pace, which I knew I should be easily capable of. And which could get me a Boston Qualifying time. But I had planned / hoped to come back and re-revise it back down to 2:59 again if I felt my training had gone well but after I missed a half marathon I had hoped to use as a pacing run due to a tummy-bug and generally not sure if I had got my training right and then worrying that I had picked up a bit of a niggle during my taper I didn't want to jinx myself by mentioning a sub-3 again. I was thinking I'd at least aim for around 3:05 but would set off on sub-3 pace and see how long I could hold it and all going well I might see it out 'til the end.

To be completely honest I wasn't really sure what I was at and was just kinda winging it as I went along!

ploughon

Hi Folks,

looking for some advice please.

I'm following the P+D 55-70 plan and there is a 10k warm up race around 16 days before the marathon.

What do people reckon on this, I was wondering if it is a bit risky that close to the big day??

Any thoughts greatly appreciated

Calvin Johnson

8-10km race?

I am following the same plan and also wondered about this. I was considering doing a 10km time trial on my own.

viperlogic

same as myself also! I'm doing a tempo run as full out race is too risky 2 weeks out from marathon, well for me anyways

ploughon

Hi Calvin,

good option...would you plan on going flat out or hold back a little???

PaulieYifter

I always do an eyeballs out 10k 2 weeks beforehand - that's what the plan calls for - helps break up the taper too.

Calvin Johnson

Not sure Ploughon, probably close to flat out. Will try and go sub 40 - although I shouldn't be on this thread!

skeleton_boy

viperlogic wrote: »

same as myself also! I'm doing a tempo run as full out race is too risky 2 weeks out from marathon, well for me anyways

My plan also. Was going to do a time trial but the risk vs reward of a 6 mile tempo seems more appealing at this stage.

Toblerone1978

I think the same, a 3x min effort is too much a fortnight out. I was going to do a 5k, done it last spring, it helps to mix it up a bit.

ooter

Did my last 20 miler today,the plan was to go out around 8:45/mile pace for 14 miles and then try and ramp it up to 6:50 for the last 6 miles.didn't want to try the 54321 session cos I've been spewing up weird green sh1t from the back of my throat all week :eek: and last weekend's 17 miler was a struggle so felt it best not to.
Clocked 8:30 for the first 2 miles and felt good so stayed at that pace,didn't want to push it any harder in case I ended up with not enough in the tank for the last 6 miles.
Ended up doing 14 miles @ 8:26 average and 6 miles @ 6:47 average.
Ran on empty with no water,very happy with that session.
If I'm being honest 3:05 is probably a more realistic target but sure I'll see how the next 3 weeks go.

Netwerk Errer

2.06:21 for 30k today. I know, I know, I didn't take everyone's advice. I am a stubborn OCD training plan devotee.

This gave me an incredible confidence boost. I now fully believe sub-3 to be a very viable time goal for the first time ever.

6:46 pace average today.

ploughon

Thanks Folks for the replies/advice.

Newterk Error, thats a savage session, you sound well on track.

Otter...running on empty, no water and running your last 6 miles at PMP!! Great running, I agree with you, see how the next few weeks go for you, but that strong finish today suggests to me that you are in great shape and have a lot of quality miles in the bank.

Just found out that next weekend I will be in Dublin and it will mean a lot of juggling around to fit the weeks running in, so I had a free hour yesterday and I took the opportunity to do a 10k time trial...only managed 40.37! Bit of a reality check for me. Sub 3 is still the goal , but it might take me another training cycle to get there. I've decided to set my goal at 3.05, which might still be a stretch but probably more realistic.

ooter

Yeah I just barely dipped under 40 mins for 10k in a time trial a few weeks ago which was pretty disappointing.
I've another one on the cards for next weekend,hoping to go quicker this time.

yaboya1

I ran a 10k race two weeks out from Seville and didn't feel it did me any harm whatsoever. Probably wouldn't want a race any longer than that though.

RayCun

When I followed the P&D plan for DCM 11, I ran the Donadea 10k two weeks before.
I don't know what the risk is in doing a 10k race. Maybe its not the best session to do, but is a 10k race particularly risky?

dukeraoul

RayCun wrote: »

When I followed the P&D plan for DCM 11, I ran the Donadea 10k two weeks before.
I don't know what the risk is in doing a 10k race. Maybe its not the best session to do, but is a 10k race particularly risky?

Agree. Also I wouldn't bother following a plan if you aren't going to do what it says!

ploughon

I guess the risk of a 10k race, in my opinion, is that you might pull something/get injured racing flat out, and then its very little recovery time to play with...but for those who are less injury prone, that's less of a risk. (that was the thinking/confusion behind my question anyway)


" Also I wouldn't bother following a plan if you aren't going to do what it says!"

Dukeraoul, you are probably right, maybe thats where I've been going wrong. But I do reckon that generic plans are worth tweaking to suit the individual..or maybe thats just me chickening out!!


Ran the 20 miler yesterday in lashing rain and strong wind. I tried "Bodyglide" instead of Vaseline, great stuff, absolutely no chaffing and less messy, would recommend it...another tip I picked up on boards! (a little of topic, sorry)

nerraw1111

dukeraoul wrote: »

Agree. Also I wouldn't bother following a plan if you aren't going to do what it says!

Disagree with that. The 10km race effort is a risk with minimal (if any?) benefits to a marathon two weeks later.

I picked up a glute strain in 2012 doing it and will be giving the race effort a miss this year.

Clearlier

nerraw1111 wrote: »

Disagree with that. The 10km race effort is a risk with minimal (if any?) benefits to a marathon two weeks later.

I picked up a glute strain in 2012 doing it and will be giving the race effort a miss this year.

It's important to learn from your experiences and adapt your approach accordingly. You got injured and are adapting your approach accordingly. That's a good thing.

I don't think that it follows for many others though. With every run that you do you're trying to stress the body so that it comes back stronger and there's always a risk of stressing something too much such that it causes an injury. The risks of injury in a one off race aren't that high though. It's a tough session for sure but it's not out of line with the rest of the plan. You've got a slightly longer hard run with the lactate threshold runs and faster running with the VO2 Max sessions.

In terms of benefits it's part of the peaking process that P&D follows. It's not important in the context of getting you around the race but it is to help you do your best and IME the majority of runners following a P&D plan aren't looking to just make it around the course.

tunguska

RayCun wrote: »

When I followed the P&D plan for DCM 11, I ran the Donadea 10k two weeks before.
I don't know what the risk is in doing a 10k race. Maybe its not the best session to do, but is a 10k race particularly risky?

I think its more nonsensical than risky. Running a 10k 2 weeks out.......it just seems irrelevant. I think you're better off taking it handy at that stage, leaving it alone, I mean how much fitter is racing a 10k gonna make you for doing a marathon 14 days later????Im not so sure about the science and logic behind that one. Maybe it is in the plan but plans should always be questioned and your own intuition should be placed above anything anybody writes. Like that old saying goes, Paper never refused ink.

RayCun

Sure, but if you're going to do a session, is a k race any worse than VO2 max intervals or other things people do two weeks out l

tunguska

RayCun wrote: »

Sure, but if you're going to do a session, is a k race any worse than VO2 max intervals or other things people do two weeks out l

I see your point and all I know is racing takes a bigger bite than sessions do. I've had 10ks that took 2 weeks to get over and I just think that close to your target race, why do something like that? Personally I wouldnt do anything 2 weeks out, no sessions or racing, just easy low mileage running.

loughie

Probably read more on Boards than I contribute so I just thought I’d share what worked for me to get under the 3 hour barrier. I’m sure there are many with similar stories as myself.

Background, ran as a juvenile long time ago, ran DCM ‘98 in 3:50 after one 13 mile long run..…..never again. Nothing until 09... I ran Connemara half as a drunken bet….hooked ever since! Ran DCM2009 -3:20, DCM2010 - 3:03:38, Cork2011 - 3:18 (blew up), Boston2012 - injured + heat - 4:09, DCM2012 - 3:13 (targeted 3:15).

Last year ran Rocknroll and Dublin halfs in 1:24’s so thought I could have a genuine crack at sub3. DCM 2013 3:01:26 (1st half 1:30:07, 2nd half 1:31:19). Followed no real plan, tempo, 400’s with club, long run. Averaged 58 miles a week. 4 Long runs over 20 miles upto 23.

So what did I do differently this year. I joined a club in spring 2013 and started to see small gains. So I ran club XC and road races early 2014, loads of hill work and speed sessions. PB’s in 10K and 10 miles then focused completely on marathon training. Decided to use P+D upto 70 mile, with some changes to suit me.

Typical week - Mon - 5 or 6 mile easy, Tues Tempo 2 WU/6 tempo @6:20/2 CD, Wed Mid Long run up to 15 mile, Thurs 5 or 6 mile easy, Fri 1 or 2 mile WU,5 x Mile reps @5:30 2:30 Recovery, 1 mile CD, Sat - Rest, Sun Long run up to 24 mile 3 weeks out. Averaged 63 mile weeks for the 18 weeks.

Long Runs I also stuck to P+D progression long runs up to 18 with 14 @6:45. I did 6 20+ miles up to 24 miles. All my long runs were at 8 min/miles except the progression long runs. Previously struggled on long runs but tried to focus on them this time round. Think I had one wobbler of a long run where I really struggled.

Mile Reps were tough session but I never ran at that pace before so i think it gave me some speed endurance.
Mid week long run was the toughest run of the week.

For all of marathon training I trained with 1 or 2 lads on the same level or quicker than me. Definitely helps to get pushed along with a group or training partner of similar level.

Don’t think I missed a run in 18 weeks, so kept things consistent. Went to Spain for 10 days and trained out there got a 55 mile week in on holidays!!

Ran RocknRoll half in 1:23:25 and then 1:21:02 in Tullamore half 4 weeks out from marathon.

For Berlin decided to go out in 1:28 but actually did 1:28:29 (pitstop at 10 miles) in race and came home in 1:28:23. Had to tough out the last couple of miles but knew I was comfortably going to get home under 3 hours - 2:56:52.

Personally for me I think more long runs over 20 miles the better up to 24 miles. Really worked hard for the tempo and mile reps. Ran my easy days easy 8:30’s. Rest day before long run kept me fresh for the long one.
I also think that if you can run a half in 1:20 to 1:26 does not automatically mean you can run sub3, unless you have trained specifically for a marathon. I had the pace up to 23 miles last year but did not have the endurance for the full marathon distance.
2 weeks out rather than race....I stuck to the mile reps x 4, 1 week out mile reps x 3.
I also think if you stick to P+D 55 to 70, you won’t be far off the mark!!

Plenty of miles, plenty of intensity, plenty of recovery….get to the start line primed and fresh……...and dig in when the going gets tough!!

Anyway thats what worked for me, it may not be the best or the worst but hey ……..it worked!!

nerraw1111

So almost time to settle on a target for DCM and any advice appreciated.

I did the 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 mile session last weekend.

Each rep came in at 3.57 min/km (6.22 min mile) with the last mile rep 3.56 min/k.

The reps were laps around Chesterfield and North road in Phoenix park so an honest course.

Beginning at the zoo, straight up to Castleknock gate, u-turn and down North Road, and back around by the zoo. Garmin has elevation of 31 metres and there was a bit of breeze.

How good an indicator is that session for a 2.49.59 attempt? The last 2 reps were tough but recovered fairly quickly and had ran 20 miles 7 days earlier.

ArtieFufkin

I'm not really qualified to comment on your ability, but this could be a bit of an eye opener for me. Normally if I'm doing 6x1mile intervals I would pace at between 3:40 and 3:50 p/km. My current target is sub-3hrs, maybe 2:55 if I feel good on the second half.

I would run pretty the same route as you but with a bit of a hill at the beginning and end as I enter/exit the park.

My point is that maybe I've been under-achieving this year? Best so far was 3:01.

nerraw1111 wrote: »

So almost time to settle on a target for DCM and any advice appreciated.

I did the 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 mile session last weekend.

Each rep came in at 3.57 min/km (6.22 min mile) with the last mile rep 3.56 min/k.

The reps were laps around Chesterfield and North road in Phoenix park so an honest course.

Beginning at the zoo, straight up to Castleknock gate, u-turn and down North Road, and back around by the zoo. Garmin has elevation of 31 metres and there was a bit of breeze.

How good an indicator is that session for a 2.49.59 attempt? The last 2 reps were tough but recovered fairly quickly and had ran 20 miles 7 days earlier.

dublin runner

nerraw1111 wrote: »

So almost time to settle on a target for DCM and any advice appreciated.

I did the 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 mile session last weekend.

Each rep came in at 3.57 min/km (6.22 min mile) with the last mile rep 3.56 min/k.

The reps were laps around Chesterfield and North road in Phoenix park so an honest course.

Beginning at the zoo, straight up to Castleknock gate, u-turn and down North Road, and back around by the zoo. Garmin has elevation of 31 metres and there was a bit of breeze.

How good an indicator is that session for a 2.49.59 attempt? The last 2 reps were tough but recovered fairly quickly and had ran 20 miles 7 days earlier.

That's a good session. The route wasn't the easiest so it was the perfect route to use.

I would say (not knowing your training) that 2.50 (6.29p/m) should feel relatively comfortable starting out.

You could possibly aim to run the first half in 1.25:30 (6.32p/m). That should feel comfortable and get you past the most difficult sections. Returning home in 1.24:30 (6.27p/m) could be a way to tackle the course.

It looks great on paper, doesn't it?! A bit harder to do in practice but it could be a way to go or a variation of it.

RayCun

ArtieFufkin wrote: »

I'm not really qualified to comment on your ability, but this could be a bit of an eye opener for me. Normally if I'm doing 6x1mile intervals I would pace at between 3:40 and 3:50 p/km. My current target is sub-3hrs, maybe 2:55 if I feel good on the second half.

He wasn't running mile intervals though, he was running 5/4/3/2/1 at marathon pace. Very hard to compare paces across sessions.

Clearlier

nerraw1111 wrote: »

So almost time to settle on a target for DCM and any advice appreciated.

I did the 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 mile session last weekend.

Each rep came in at 3.57 min/km (6.22 min mile) with the last mile rep 3.56 min/k.

The reps were laps around Chesterfield and North road in Phoenix park so an honest course.

Beginning at the zoo, straight up to Castleknock gate, u-turn and down North Road, and back around by the zoo. Garmin has elevation of 31 metres and there was a bit of breeze.

How good an indicator is that session for a 2.49.59 attempt? The last 2 reps were tough but recovered fairly quickly and had ran 20 miles 7 days earlier.

On it's own that session certainly suggests that 2:50 is on. Isolated sessions aren't usually a good tool for predicting performance though. If you've got everything else right and all goes well you should be in shape for 2:50.

Plodman

I've been following this thread with interest; best of luck to you all whatever your target.
Looking for a little advice. I've been running 6 days per week for the past 6 months and my original target was to break 3 hours but recent form suggests I am capable of more. In the last two months I did a 20M, 21M, 23M & 23M LSR. I ran a HM in 1:19 4 weeks ago and have done plenty of intervals, VO2 Max workouts etc. Did a 12 mile last night @ 6:26 pace and it felt comfortably hard. Any suggestions/feedback on a realistic target? 2:50/2:55?