Swine Flu Vaccination + general swine flu chat thread

Dr Galen

exactly. Good hand hygiene will protect you somewhat from pretty much everything. Making sure worktops etc are cleaned down regularly too will make a difference.

tallaght01

bleg wrote: »

Anybody have any concerns over the vaccine? Not the conspiracy theory stuff but the way it is being rushed through so quickly. I was talking to the hospital pharmacist locally and she said she wouldn't take it. Anybody have any thoughts? I haven't read all this thread so if this has been answered already can you point out the post to me?

It's a tough one to call.

Baxter are releasing one that seems to have been licensed without all the usual tests that a NEW VACCINE would have.

But the licensing authorities don't seem to e treating it as a new vaccine. We don't re-test the flu vaccine every year. We just add in a new strain, with the same ingredients. So, it's probably fair enough.

The clinical trials group I work with are starting our trial on kids next monday, and we're certainly not rushing anything through. In fact, there will e closer scrutiny of this than our normal seasonal flu vaccine data.

I don't see it being much different than the yearly flu vaccine I get, and I'd be happy to take it. But I'm happier with the vaccine I'm involved with, as I think it's right to do the full tests.

tallaght01

http://www.who.int/csr/disease/swineflu/notes/h1n1_safety_vaccines_20090805/en/index.html

WHO wrote:

Safety of pandemic vaccines

Pandemic (H1N1) 2009 briefing note 6

6 AUGUST 2009 | GENEVA -- WHO is aware of some media reports that have expressed concern about the safety of vaccines for pandemic influenza. The public needs to be reassured that regulatory procedures in place for the licensing of pandemic vaccines, including procedures for expediting regulatory approval, are rigorous and do not compromise safety or quality controls.

Vaccines are among the most important medical interventions for reducing illness and deaths during a pandemic. However, to have the greatest impact, pandemic vaccines need to be available quickly and in large quantities.

Related links
Pandemic influenza vaccine manufacturing process and timeline
6 August 2009

During the 1957 and 1968 pandemics, vaccines arrived too late to be used as an effective mitigation tool during the more severe phases of the pandemics. Influenza vaccines had not yet been developed when the 1918 pandemic swept around the world, eventually killing an estimated 50 million people.

In 2007, as part of preparedness for an influenza pandemic, WHO worked together with health officials, regulatory authorities, and vaccine manufacturers to explore a broad range of issues surrounding the regulatory approval of pandemic vaccines. [1]

Ways were sought to shorten the time between the emergence of a pandemic virus and the availability of safe and effective vaccines. Different regulatory pathways were assessed, and precautions needed to ensure quality, safety, and effectiveness were set out in detail.

Fast-track procedures for approval

Regulatory authorities have shown great flexibility in developing procedures for fast-tracking the approval and licensing of pandemic vaccines.

In some cases, pandemic vaccines are not regarded by regulatory authorities as entirely “new” vaccines, as they build on the technology used to produce vaccines for seasonal influenza, established procedures for testing and regulatory control, and an extensive body of safety data.

In such cases, approval procedures are similar to those applied to “strain changes” made each year when seasonal vaccines are modified to match circulating viruses in the Northern and Southern Hemispheres.

Specific regulatory procedures have been devised to expedite the approval of pandemic vaccines. In the USA, for example, fewer data are required when the manufacturer already has a licensed influenza vaccine and intends to use the same manufacturing process for its pandemic vaccine.

In the European Union, the European Medicines Agency uses a rolling review procedure whereby manufacturers can submit sets of data for regulatory review as they become available, without having to wait until all data can be submitted together in a single formal application.

Also in Europe, some manufacturers have conducted advance studies using a so-called “mock-up” vaccine. Mock-up vaccines contain an active ingredient for an influenza virus that has not circulated recently in human populations and thus mimics the novelty of a pandemic virus. Such advance studies can greatly expedite regulatory approval.

Special safety concerns

Influenza vaccines have been used for more than 60 years and have an established record of safety in all age groups. While some serious adverse events have been reported, these have been rare.

Nonetheless, special safety issues will inevitably arise during a pandemic when vaccine is administered on a massive scale. For example, adverse events too rare to show up even in a large clinical trial may become apparent when very large numbers of people receive a pandemic vaccine.

Some adverse events will be coincidental – that is, associated in time with vaccine administration, yet not directly caused by the vaccine. Genuine adverse events directly caused by the vaccine may also occur, but cannot be predicted in advance. Given the safety record of seasonal vaccines, such events are expected to be rare.

Time constraints mean that clinical data at the time when pandemic vaccines are first administered will inevitably be limited. Further testing of safety and effectiveness will need to take place after administration of the vaccine has begun.

For these reasons, WHO advises all countries administering pandemic vaccines to conduct intensive monitoring for safety and efficacy, and many countries have plans in place for doing so. On the positive side, mass vaccination campaigns can generate significant safety data within a few weeks.

International sharing of data from such post-marketing surveillance will be vital in guiding risk-benefit assessments and determining whether changes in vaccination policies are needed. WHO has developed standardized protocols for data collection and reporting in real-time, and will communicate findings to the international community via its web site.

_________________________

[1] Regulatory preparedness for human pandemic influenza vaccines. Report of a WHO Expert Committee on Biological Standardization. Geneva: World Health Organization, 2007 [pdf 625kb]

The_Conductor

bleg wrote: »

Anybody have any concerns over the vaccine? Not the conspiracy theory stuff but the way it is being rushed through so quickly. I was talking to the hospital pharmacist locally and she said she wouldn't take it. Anybody have any thoughts? I haven't read all this thread so if this has been answered already can you point out the post to me?

I'm in an 'at risk' group (I'm on a high dose of Imuran and other immunosuppresants). I take the regular vaccination annually as soon as its available- and will be doing my best to add it to my list as soon as its available.

DARK-KNIGHT

having heard of that poor young girl that died in tallaght hospital from swine flu im extremely worried about my cousin and close friend in england as she has cf also! the doctors in uk were giving her antibiotics at home so to keep her hopefully clear of infection but she has been unwell so was moved to hospital! im unsure of what someones survival chances are with a condition like CF?:(

mountainruth

Hi, may be the wrong thread (say hi to the first timer ) - but! I've read a few articles on the efficacy of elderberry extract in alleviating symptoms of both Influenza A and B strains...

Anyhoo - colour me and send me to the recipe threads if necessary, but did think that the evidence on this one seems reasonable enough to consider making it when the berries are ripe later this month... any views (or better still a decent non-US measures recipe?).

DrIndy

I would take the flu vaccine - do it every year.

Why get the flu? It sucks. I also don't have a needle phobia which many people (especially health care people) do and just cover it up "I don't believe in that sort of thing blah blah hrrrmmrrrahhhmmmmmrrrhhhaa"

bluedolphin

raycaulwell wrote: »

having heard of that poor young girl that died in tallaght hospital from swine flu im extremely worried about my cousin and close friend in england as she has cf also! the doctors in uk were giving her antibiotics at home so to keep her hopefully clear of infection but she has been unwell so was moved to hospital! im unsure of what someones survival chances are with a condition like CF?:(

Hi there, I can't quell your worries, but I have CF as well, so I might be able to give some reassurance. In general, CF patients are always in a higher risk category from everything, really. I get the regular flu vaccine every autumn as soon as it comes out (usually Sept/Oct). The honest answer is that it will vary from patient to patient and there is no blanket rule. There have been plenty of cases in the UK of CF sufferers who have contracted the swine flu virus and have recovered. Unfortunately, in the most recent case here, the patient passed away. The flu virus affects the respiration system, which, in CF patients, is already undermined, but the severity of which varies drastically from person to person, for unknown reasons. Some people just seem to be plagued with infection after infection (which obviously causes lung damage and breathing difficulties) while others are more fortunate.

What I will say is that if your friend has just finished a course of antibiotics she will be in good vantage point as her chest will most likely be clear of a lot of other bacterial infections and mucus (phlegm) hiding grounds, so her lung function will probably be up. Also, if she's been moved to hospital, she will be under close surveillance.

As one last point of info, the UK's health service for CF patients far outweighs that in Ireland, so she's probably in better hands there regardless!

If you've any more specific questions, feel free to PM me. I hope she gets well soon - I'm just off a stint of IV antibiotics myself and I feel great and ready to tackle the world...even swine flu if it dares to come near me - so hopefully she'll be feeling the same.

ZorbaTehZ

mountainruth wrote: »

Anyhoo - colour me and send me to the recipe threads if necessary, but did think that the evidence on this one seems reasonable enough to consider making it when the berries are ripe later this month....

Sounds about right, Uranus will be in the constellation of Pisces about then, make sure you stock-up on your quartz crystals and frog spawn though! :rolleyes:

DARK-KNIGHT

bump

CapedCrusader

<SNIP>
post deleted- below added by sam34
caped crusader, we dont allow scaremongering stuff on this forum.

if you wish to discuss a scientific paper, then by all means do so.

but posting links to papers with sensationalist (and inaccurate) summaries is not acceptable here.

anymore of it and you (or anyone else) will be banned.

tallaght01

Caped crusader.....you've not read any of those studies. The first one was looking at vaccines for different strains to the ones that were circulating, to see if they are effective (ie a study to see if being vaccinated against one strain is protective against another. Not surprisingly it isn't).

the second paediatric one you refer to, the cochrane review...where you said it shows the vaccine is no better than placebo....well, actually it shows the vaccine is highly effective in kids over two, but that there's not been many studies in kids under 2. That's not news. It also has balls-all to do with swine flu!

But I'm going to ask the mods to remove your post, as links without discussing the papers (especially when you haven't read the papers and won't comment on them, are not allowed).

CapedCrusader

tallaght01 wrote: »

Caped crusader.....you've not read any of those studies. The first one was looking at vaccines for different strains to the ones that were circulating, to see if they are effective (ie a study to see if being vaccinated against one strain is protective against another. Not surprisingly it isn't).

the second paediatric one you refer to, the cochrane review...where you said it shows the vaccine is no better than placebo....well, actually it shows the vaccine is highly effective in kids over two, but that there's not been many studies in kids under 2. That's not news. It also has balls-all to do with swine flu!

But I'm going to ask the mods to remove your post, as links without discussing the papers (especially when you haven't read the papers and won't comment on them, are not allowed).

Interesting... I thought this was a discussion forum. I posted the links for discussion. Wouldn't the links I posted along with your response and comments have constituted a discussion? Now you've deleted one side of the discussion and left just your comments. It's nice to have that power, isn't it?

DrIndy

CapedCrusader wrote: »

Interesting... I thought this was a discussion forum. I posted the links for discussion. Wouldn't the links I posted along with your response and comments have constituted a discussion? Now you've deleted one side of the discussion and left just your comments. It's nice to have that power, isn't it?

banned for a week

sam34

CapedCrusader wrote: »

Interesting... I thought this was a discussion forum. I posted the links for discussion. Wouldn't the links I posted along with your response and comments have constituted a discussion? Now you've deleted one side of the discussion and left just your comments. It's nice to have that power, isn't it?

banned for arguing with a mod in-thread.
if you have an issue with the moderation on the forum, either PM the mod or take it to feedback.

di11on

Just been reading about the 1976 swine flu pandemic that wasn't.

http://healthandsurvival.com/2009/04/26/swine-flu-vaccine-of-1976-more-harm-than-good/

The long and short of it was that fearing a pandemic, the US government embarked on a mass vaccination programme but cancelled it 10 weeks in. 1 person died of swine flu, 25 died of the vaccine. Many others suffered debilitating neurological disease, a strongly suspected result of the vaccine.

What's different now? Why should we trust a vaccine any more now than then? That's not a rhetorical question - it's a genuine one - what would make a vaccine safer today than in 1976?

Cubensis

mountainruth wrote: »

Hi, may be the wrong thread (say hi to the first timer ) - but! I've read a few articles on the efficacy of elderberry extract in alleviating symptoms of both Influenza A and B strains...

Anyhoo - colour me and send me to the recipe threads if necessary, but did think that the evidence on this one seems reasonable enough to consider making it when the berries are ripe later this month... any views (or better still a decent non-US measures recipe?).

My sister had swine flu last week and she took the elderberry extract, she got it in the health shop (sambucal if i remember correctly). She was sick on Friday with a high temperature and coughing and doc gave her tamiflu. She doesnt like taking medicine so she took the elderberry. She was good yesterday and is fine today and was even out with the dogs! I must tell everyone about the extract now, it is so good and she did not even have the tamiflu!

Where can you get the berries mountainruth? I would make a lot of this if I could, to give to people who will get it when winter comes, do you know if its easy to make, what do you need?

condra

NEWSFLASH!
Person recovers from flu in 5 days. Quick, run out and buy Elderberry extract. Experts did clinical trials. It says so on the internet.

*sigh*

condra

Both my mother and I have flu (of some sort) since Saturday, and getting continually worse until today.

My mother was so sick this morning, her doctor recommended she go to hospital by ambulance, and she is in The Mater this evening in isolation.
She has underlying health problems (past stroke, liver problems, coeliac)

I've fared considerably better despite my own underlying health problems (CFS/ME) but I have to say, it's very tough going. My symptoms are like any other flu I've had, only with more sweating and less headaches.

My father, who is a heavy smoker, has started sneezing, so I'm a bit worried about him. Mine started with a sore throat, then sneezing and sweating.

Anyway, I'm not looking to vent or anything, just documenting our experience in this household.

ZorbaTehZ

Woah woah woah?! Is it North Korea in here or what? Insanity tbh :eek:

Turtwig

Woah woah woah?! Is it North Korea in here or what? Insanity tbh:eek:

Most of us don't want to be wasting our time reading through trolls of sludge that quote random articles but do not attempt to validate or at the least discuss them.

@Womoma hope everything turns out ok, the flu can be tough but hopefully you'll both be alright

popefrayne

removed by mod.

poster banned.

sam34

ZorbaTehZ wrote: »

Woah woah woah?! Is it North Korea in here or what? Insanity tbh :eek:

generally, the moderation in this forum is very relaxed, as the regulars will know.


however, with the swine flu there is a potential for mass hysteria.

the conspiracy theorists are out in droves at the moment.

inaccurate, unscientific rubbish will not be tolerated in this thread.

a lot of the general public are reading this thread, and we have some duty not to have inaccuracies and scaremongering here.

Cubensis

womoma wrote: »

NEWSFLASH!
Person recovers from flu in 5 days. Quick, run out and buy Elderberry extract. Experts did clinical trials. It says so on the internet.

*sigh*

She had the fever on Friday night, she was fine when i saw her at breakfast that morning. By Monday morning she was just tired and today is like she had nothing wrong all weekend. That means she was just sick for only 3 days and the doc told her it would be a week or more before she would be better again and that was with taking the tamiflu. The woman in the health shop gave us the info on it and it worked like she said so what is the problem? she didnt say anything about trials or the internet and I didnt either so its not fair to talk about my good news like that! I

condra

Cubensis wrote: »

She had the fever on Friday night, she was fine when i saw her at breakfast that morning. By Monday morning she was just tired and today is like she had nothing wrong all weekend. That means she was just sick for only 3 days and the doc told her it would be a week or more before she would be better again and that was with taking the tamiflu.

OK you're right then, it must have been Swine Flu, and the quick recovery must have been due to the elderberries. That is clearly the only logical conclusion :rolleyes:

The woman in the health shop gave us the info on it and it worked like she said so what is the problem?

You don't know what the "problem" is with unqualified people recommending unorthodox medical treatment on the internet?

We should have the trials and test it though so we know exactly how it works and so we can say to people like you that it is the better medicine for the flu

"People like you"? You mean people who excercise fairly standard amounts of critical enquiry?
If there were extensive scientific trials which proved elderberry extract to be an effective treatment for flu, I would cease being sceptical.

I'm sure the pharmacutical giants will be kicking themselves when SOMA make billions selling a patented elderberry extract formula in so called "health shops".

Claims on alternative websites which happen to sell such products don't count as evidence either. Pandemics are like goldrushes to the mostly unscrupulous quacks that make up the "complimentary medicine" industry.

Carsinian Thau

womoma wrote: »

OK you're right then, it must have been Swine Flu, and the quick recovery must have been due to the elderberries. That is clearly the only logical conclusion :rolleyes:


You don't know what the "problem" is with unqualified people recommending unorthodox medical treatment on the internet?


"People like you"? You mean people who excercise fairly standard amounts of critical enquiry?

I think I just fell in love with you a little bit.

tallaght01

ZorbaTehZ wrote: »

Woah woah woah?! Is it North Korea in here or what? Insanity tbh :eek:

what's this about?

di11on

di11on wrote: »

Just been reading about the 1976 swine flu pandemic that wasn't.

http://healthandsurvival.com/2009/04/26/swine-flu-vaccine-of-1976-more-harm-than-good/

The long and short of it was that fearing a pandemic, the US government embarked on a mass vaccination programme but cancelled it 10 weeks in. 1 person died of swine flu, 25 died of the vaccine. Many others suffered debilitating neurological disease, a strongly suspected result of the vaccine.

What's different now? Why should we trust a vaccine any more now than then? That's not a rhetorical question - it's a genuine one - what would make a vaccine safer today than in 1976?

Anyone have a response to this?

tallaght01

di11on wrote: »

Anyone have a response to this?

Yea, in 1976 500 people got guillain arre syndrome, and 25 of them died. Some of that will have been because of vaccination, as GBS is one of the side effects of vaccines. Some will have been because if you take 40 million people (The number that were vaccinated) and look at the for a few weeks, some will die.

But vaccines have come a long way since 1976. This vaccine is pretty much the same as the flu vaccine loads of us get every year, and we're not all keeling over from that.

fifth

Hi all, sorry haven't read the whole thread, but we're having a baby boy due in december, what should we do to protect the child? Will the doctor refer my OH for a vaccination?

Should I avoid the vaccine? I'm relatively healthy besides being on antibiotics for the past year and a half on and off..