Swine Flu Vaccination + general swine flu chat thread

El_Dangeroso

Is anyone else getting deja vu?

El_Dangeroso

tallaght01 wrote: »

But has anyone shown that irish people are deficient in vitamin D?

I've not seen too many paddies with rickets :P

Actually, just came across this two seconds before I clicked on this thread.. weird..

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16571177

tallaght01

Temple_Grandin wrote: »

Actually, just came across this two seconds before I clicked on this thread.. weird..

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16571177

You should definitely have a look at how reference ranges are decided upon before you put huge faith in a study done on elderly people in the depths of winter.

But, that aside, if vitamin D is protective, then why does this supposedly deficient group have a lower risk of swine flu

El_Dangeroso

tallaght01 wrote: »

You should definitely have a look at how reference ranges are decided upon before you put huge faith in a study done on elderly people in the depths of winter.

But, that aside, if vitamin D is protective, then why does this supposedly deficient group have a lower risk of swine flu

There's no consensus on a healthy range unfortunately, but <50nmol would be considered deficient in all of the literature that I've read. I'm not putting huge faith in it, but it was the only thing I could find on Irish people.

I don't think there's any data that this group are especially deficient is there?

Sepulchrave

SNIP

we dont give medical advice here.

discuss your concerns with your doctor.

JP Liz

Is the vaccine given to everyone?

The_Conductor

JP Liz wrote: »

Is the vaccine given to everyone?

The vaccination campaign officially starts on the 2nd of November- and initially is targetted at those identified as being at high risk (pregnant women and those suffering from long term illnesses or immuno compromised for one reason or another).

The_Conductor

Primetime on RTE1 is discussing all aspects of Swine Flu- its airing at the moment (and will be available as a download later).

S.

Riverrun

Would it be a good idea to post a list of the GPs here who HAVE DEFINITELY got the swine flu vaccination in? I just heard on the radio that some doctors in the midlands have it but where are they? My local does not have it in Roscommon and another doc I know in Longford says he is not giving it out at all. Can anybody help with an up to date current list of who has it please? Not trying to create panic just clear information would be helpful.

sam34

Riverrun wrote: »

Would it be a good idea to post a list of the GPs here who HAVE DEFINITELY got the swine flu vaccination in? I just heard on the radio that some doctors in the midlands have it but where are they? My local does not have it in Roscommon and another doc I know in Longford says he is not giving it out at all. Can anybody help with an up to date current list of who has it please? Not trying to create panic just clear information would be helpful.

i dont think thats a runner here, tbh.

best bet is to contact your own GP who may be able to advise who has it, or else your local health office.

The_Conductor

The HSE are saying there has been a rush of GPs sending back vaccination clinic forms, and they expect up to 95% of all practising GPs to have enrolled in the programme by Monday the 2nd. It would also appear that initial supplies of vaccine may be a little better than originally anticipated, but it could still be 2-3 weeks before there are supplies in all surgeries (I think the 16th was being mentioned).

Its a bit of a bummer the way the vaccine is in 10 dose bottles and has to be used within a 24 hour period- this is putting quite a few GPs off administering it until the official start date of the 2nd- lest they not have 10 patients lined up to use the whole bottle of the precious vaccine.

S.

samson09

tallaght01 wrote: »

But has anyone shown that irish people are deficient in vitamin D?

I've not seen too many paddies with rickets :P

This study suggests that 74% of Irish adults are deficient in Vit D (what it actually states is that 74% had a mean daily intake that was less than the recommended amount of 5 g). In my opinion (which is based on the research of prominent researchers in this area, the RDA of 5 g (200 iu) is far too low and needs to be increased to at least 2000 iu to account for recent discoveries in this field.

http://www.nature.com/ejcn/journal/v58/n11/abs/1602001a.html

Its possible that a deficiency of Vit D has different effects that are related to the scale of the deficiency i.e. a child that is extremely deficient in Vit D may develop rickets whereas a child that is above a certain threshold level but still deficient in Vit D may be more susceptible to other disorders but not necessarily rickets. Hope that makes sense!

samson09

Does anyone know how many trials are currently taking place wrt pregnant women and the H1N1 vaccine?

The only trial I can find is this one that is testing Sanofi Pasteur's unadjuvanated vaccine and it isn't finished until July 2010:

A Phase II Study in Pregnant Women to Assess the Safety and Immunogenicity of an Unadjuvanted Sanofi Pasteur H1N1 Inactivated Influenza Vaccine Administered at Two Dose Levels

http://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00963430?term=NCT00963430&rank=1

tallaght01

Here we go again.
You didn't read the paper.
It's 7 years old.
That age group are likely to get Vit D from sun exposure.
The study didn't show deficiency.

locum-motion

samson09 wrote: »

This study suggests that 74% of Irish adults are deficient in Vit D (what it actually states is that 74% had a mean daily intake that was less than the recommended amount of 5 g). In my opinion (which is based on the research of prominent researchers in this area, the RDA of 5 g (200 iu) is far too low and needs to be increased to at least 2000 iu to account for recent discoveries in this field.

http://www.nature.com/ejcn/journal/v58/n11/abs/1602001a.html

Its possible that a deficiency of Vit D has different effects that are related to the scale of the deficiency i.e. a child that is extremely deficient in Vit D may develop rickets whereas a child that is above a certain threshold level but still deficient in Vit D may be more susceptible to other disorders but not necessarily rickets. Hope that makes sense!

Actually, it says that 74% had an intake of "less than the median (5 g) of the recommended daily range of 0–10 g."

You're advocating an RDA of 50 g. Is anything forthcoming to back that up?

L-M.

Edit: Start a thread about RDAs for Vitamin D if you wish to answer my question above. This thread is about swine flu.

DrIndy

Samson09 - you do know we have a very tight threshold for your posts when they do not have significant scientific credibility.

In your case - if in doubt - don't post.

martazk

SNIP

we dont give personal medical advice here.

discuss the issue and any concerns with your doctor

DARK-KNIGHT

had my swine flu vacc today well the first jab and symptoms seem fine apart from a sore arm and aching a little:(

all in all though feel great!!

btw some people think that its live swine flu they treat you with and its not its basically dead swine flu really safe i think;););)

ComDubh

I'd the Pandemrix jab yesterday. Apart from a sore arm and a panic attack ploughing through all the scary misinformation out there, I feel fine.

CathyMoran

I also had the jab yesterday - no side effects yet apart from a tiny but of a sore arm but that was more where the GP placed the needle...

Sconsey

'pologies if this has been asked/answered before,... I know a few people who have been hit up with 'suspected' cases of swine flu (GP diagnosis), at least one or two of them have been really sick so I'm inclined to think that they probably do/did have it...so are the suspected cases added to the statistics released of x number of cases diagnosed this week? if not it looks like the official figures are way off.

The_Conductor

Sconsey wrote: »

'pologies if this has been asked/answered before,... I know a few people who have been hit up with 'suspected' cases of swine flu (GP diagnosis), at least one or two of them have been really sick so I'm inclined to think that they probably do/did have it...so are the suspected cases added to the statistics released of x number of cases diagnosed this week? if not it looks like the official figures are way off.

The 'official' cases are those that have been officially diagnosed by GP or hospital- by way of swabbing. This week- almost 65% of swabs have been positive- and the percentage of positive swabs is continuing to increase- however as you've alluded to- the vast number of cases are no longer being swabbed at all......

I think the most accurate statistic at the moment- is that Swine Flu is continuing to displace the other seasonal influenza strains, as the dominant strain out there. Numbers wise- the number in hospital or ICU is as reliable a measure as you can get.

Whats the story with the shortage in ICU places btw? It was alluded to on Primetime?

SomeDose

smccarrick wrote: »

Whats the story with the shortage in ICU places btw? It was alluded to on Primetime?

ITU occupancies are usually near full capacity anyway so the predicted swine flu infection rates and resultant increase in patients requiring intensive care will mean ITU occupancies are greatly exceeded. I think Tallaght01 put up the predicted infection/hospitalisation/ITU admissions/mortality rates somewhere else in this thread.

I don't know what the picture is like in Ireland at the moment or what was said on Primetime, but here in the UK the ITUs are predicted to be at around 300% capacity. Our unit is currently already over capacity with 7-8 cases (confirmed & suspected), and we're now having to use CSITU beds. HDUs, coronary units and A+E resus beds will also potentially have to used as infection rates increase. All non-urgent surgery will get binned as well to minimise demand on ITU/HDU beds. I imagine these contingency plans are pretty much the same in all countries.

nesf

smccarrick wrote: »

Whats the story with the shortage in ICU places btw? It was alluded to on Primetime?

In terms of economics, ICU places are very very expensive, so a health system can't justifiably have a large surplus of such places empty all the time. This means for spikes in illness rates invariably you'll have less ICU spots than people needing them but you can mitigate this to a small extent by decreasing avoidable need for them (postponing surgeries etc). The staff to patient ratios in ICU wards are huge and the staff require more training (I believe) than those on normal wards.

It's just the classic rare resource, you can't afford to have too many of them because of how cripplingly expensive they are but then you know you'll have rare occasions where you'll need far in excess of your standard capacity. Dealing with this is a nightmare that I genuinely pity the administration and healthcare staff for having.

tallaght01

Sconsey wrote: »

'pologies if this has been asked/answered before,... I know a few people who have been hit up with 'suspected' cases of swine flu (GP diagnosis), at least one or two of them have been really sick so I'm inclined to think that they probably do/did have it...so are the suspected cases added to the statistics released of x number of cases diagnosed this week? if not it looks like the official figures are way off.

The way they measure the numbers is by "sentinel surveillance". This means about 60 GP surgeries in Ireland report the number of "influenza like illnesses" that present to them every week.

We know, from analysing lab samples, that most influenza are swine influenza at the moment.

So, say those 60 surgeries have 1 million people on their books between them (they don't, but for for ease of numbers) then you can make certain estimates. You'd look at the 1 million people, and multiply that by 4. Then you'd add a bit more in, to account for people who don't show up with flu, but stay at home. Then you adjust the figures some more, to take into account the fact that the demographic presenting to the GP surgeries don;t reflect the normal population (more older people go to the GP etc, more babies, more women).

It's modelled like this around the world. It works reasonably well, but the figures given by the HSE will never be properly exact.

DARK-KNIGHT

hey just on another note my wife is preggers with our fist baby due in a week and a half awwwwww lol and she got her vaccination too and she is fine sore arm and thats all!

just said i would let anyone pregnant know not to listen to scaremongering and trust health professionals

btw this vaccine is gonna save so many lives - god bless those that created it:)

tmdsurvey

samson09 wrote: »

Germany will not be using vaccines with adjuvants on preganant women or children due to a lack of safety data.

I too would be interested to see some long term studies proving these adjuvants they are using are safe, have searched high and low for some but no joy yet. Would be grateful if anyone with access to the research would have a look.

+1.

Its a bit of a concern that some countries seem to be using vaccines without adjuvants. Why? Are we to assume they are harmful? Why are we using a vaccine with an adjuvant when we could use one without it?

There appears to be only very superficial information with regards to the vaccine, particularly the side affects.

nesf

tmdsurvey wrote: »

Why are we using a vaccine with an adjuvant when we could use one without it?

Short answer: They make vaccines work far better. Un-adjuvanted vaccines don't work as well as adjuvanted ones (i.e. two vaccines with identical amounts of "active ingredients" one with adjuvant, one without). They also, from my understanding, allow vaccines to be cheaper (if you're using "generic" adjuvants) and allow more vaccines to be created for X amount of active ingredients.

tallaght01

tmdsurvey wrote: »

+1.

Its a bit of a concern that some countries seem to be using vaccines without adjuvants. Why? Are we to assume they are harmful? Why are we using a vaccine with an adjuvant when we could use one without it?

There appears to be only very superficial information with regards to the vaccine, particularly the side affects.

Adjuvants are used to improve the immune response to a vaccine. Now, you can easily raise a sufficient immune response to swine flu with a non adjuvant vaccine, as we do here in Oz.
The problem with this is that there's a very real worry of a second wave of swine flu, if it mutates into a form not covered by the vaccine.
If you have an adjuvanted vaccine, then there's a higher chance your body will respond to a mutated form of the swine flu. So, if there's a second wave, people like me who've had the vaccine without adjuvant will have to be vaccinated again next year.

But, despite the balls that gets spouted about the dangers of adjuvants, they've been used for donkeys years in people, and they've never even been shown to be dangerous.

The_Saint

Does anyone here know why there's a delay of 3 months for pregnant women before they can receive the vaccine?
I don't know why, but if there are concerns over its impact at the early stages of pregnancy, what are they? and why is it safe to administer at exactly 3 months.
Due dates and dates of conception can be miscalculated at that stage so a 3 month calculation could mean a two month in reality so are the concerns actually only for upto 2 months... or what's the issue with that aspect?

In addition to the above queries, I would like to see far more statistics and detail about statistics we are all given to date so that they basic statistics that we are given can be assessed properly.
I'd like more statistics with regard to pregnant womens risks versus protection:
How many pregnant women have had swine flu in Ireland to date?
How many pregnant women have recovered without problems?
How many pregnant women have died from swine flu to date? what other underlying medical conditions had they (if any)?
What other problems apart from death have pregnant women with swine flu experienced?
How many pregnant women have died in the same period as the swine flu outbreak who didn't have swine flu?
- what is the average death rate of pregnant women in Ireland for other reasons?

Now I realise there are difficult questions above that are very sensitive to people who have experienced terrible losses, but we need to know these things, statistics without detail are impossible to assess properly and I feel we're being asked to accept that the swine flu is a terrible risk to pregnant women without the full details.

I know that if there's 100,000 people infected here to date that thats about 1 in 50 people so its a massive risk, sure if you go shopping you're in a supermarket with that many people and chances are you're at risk, so its very worrying but we need to have more detailed statistics by way of comparison, that's why I'm asking the questions above.

Also why are we not told 'prevention is better than cure' and issued those light blue disposable face masks, would that not prevent the spread as effectively as the vaccines and compliment the national effort?

What vaccine is being offered to pregnant women here in Ireland? is it the adjuvant or non-adjuvant type and is it one dose as has proven efficient for protection in pregnant women who have had it in the States?