Brian Lenihan blames euro and Eastern cheap labour for recession

free to prosper

almost half a million nationals.

If 457,000 or 477,000 came here.

The Yesmen still lied through their teeth about the Treaty of Nice....

Lisbon brings in untrammelled capital - workers don't really matter. Hence Laval, Ruffert etc

I think this is brilliant from another poster:

A pool of workers, to be bartered and herded across the continent, undercut and degraded from citizens to clients of an employment agency.
The EU has overturned the concept of a Nation that exists for it's people.

K-9

free to prosper wrote: »

It was updated some time ago. There was always a reference link there as well.

I said that FF and Labour politicos lied about effect of Treaty of Nice.
If you can prove they did not lie to the people - evidence (events dear boy events) shows otherwise.

It is quite clear Nice facilitated mass immigration which in turn caused job displacement. Not good for Irish workers - many of whom are now unemployed.

It needs a subscription.

Evidence from 7 years after the event has no relevance to evidence at the time.

You have made a serious allegation so it's up to you to back it up.

Did they knowingly lie in 2001/02 or not?

K-9

free to prosper wrote: »

It is quite clear Nice facilitated mass immigration which in turn caused job displacement. Not good for Irish workers - many of whom are now unemployed.

You left out the property bubble economy.

BlitzKrieg

FutureTaoiseach wrote: »

There are around 500,000 foreign nationals if you bear in mind two variables: Firstly, the National Quarterly Household Survey (on CSO website) says that there are around 460,000 foreign-nationals over 15 in the labour-force (including unemployed). Add that to approximately 44,000 we know are the primary-school system and you reach at least 500,000 and likely more.

the argument is not if they are half a million foreign nationals. Its if there are half a million eastern europeans. Which is a very a different situation.

for example there are over 80 000 foreign nationals employed right now, but only half of that are from the accension states.

Among non-Irish nationals the largest number on the Live Register were nationals
from the EU Accession states (44,566)

O'Morris

BlitzKrieg wrote:

is as you said incorrect.

It's not incorrect. Almost half a million workers have come from from eastern Europe since 2004

You can see for yourself by taking a look at this. If you count up the PPS numbers issued to people from the 10 accession states since 2004 you'll see that it adds up to well over 480,000.

As we're constantly being told that most of our immigration comes from Britain, I thought it was worth comparing the eastern European figures with the British figures. Over 300,000 PPS numbers have been issued to Polish people since 2004. The number issued to people from the United Kingdom (which includes part of Ireland) was 68,688.

K-9

O'Morris wrote: »

It's not incorrect. Almost half a million workers have come from from eastern Europe since 2004

You can see for yourself by taking a look at this. If you count up the PPS numbers issued to people from the 10 accession states since 2004 you'll see that it adds up to well over 480,000.

As we're constantly being told that most of our immigration comes from Britain, I thought it was worth comparing the eastern European figures with the British figures. Over 300,000 PPS numbers have been issued to Polish people since 2004. The number issued to people from the United Kingdom (which includes part of Ireland) was 68,688.

It would appear from Blitzkriegs post showing the CSO and ILO figures, a significant percentage have left.

FutureTaoiseach

K-9 wrote: »

It would appear from Blitzkriegs post showing the CSO and ILO figures, a significant percentage have left.

Well a net 22,000 foreign-nationals (mostly Accession state nationals) are suspected as having left based on the NQHS from the CSO showing that while the numbers of foreign-nationals in the labour-force has fallen by around that number. Of course, it's hard to tell given the numbers working in the underground-economy.

gurramok

K-9 wrote: »

Did they knowingly lie in 2001/02 or not?

For Nice, they did.

Anyway, i have anecdotal from a few foreigners in my place who have said 'alot of my friends have left the country in the last few months. others are still looking for work and others are trying to hang onto to their jobs'.

Most foreigners rent(as per last examination of CSO returns). The rental market has a chronic availability of vacancies, it can't be all down to oversupply

I don't think that half a million number will hold up to scrutiny in the next census(is it 2011?), expect that number to decrease in half if not more.

FutureTaoiseach

gurramok wrote: »

For Nice, they did.

Anyway, i have anecdotal from a few foreigners in my place who have said 'alot of my friends have left the country in the last few months. others are still looking for work and others are trying to hang onto to their jobs'.

Most foreigners rent(as per last examination of CSO returns). The rental market has a chronic availability of vacancies, it can't be all down to oversupply

I don't think that half a million number will hold up to scrutiny in the next census(is it 2011?), expect that number to decrease in half if not more.

The Census is in 2010 but we'll have to wait a year for results methinks.

BlitzKrieg

The number issued to people from the United Kingdom (which includes part of Ireland) was 68,688.

just a general curiosity

How are the numbers divided up for the UK?

cause it has a catagory that says UK: that gives for example in 2004: 13909

then it has it for specific areas: england, scotland etc

In theory if I add up them I should get the 13909 correct?

but when I add them up in the calculator I get: 4636

anyone know how this system is laid out?

gurramok

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

just a general curiosity

How are the numbers divided up for the UK?

cause it has a catagory that says UK: that gives for example in 2004: 13909

then it has it for specific areas: england, scotland etc

In theory if I add up them I should get the 13909 correct?

but when I add them up in the calculator I get: 4636

anyone know how this system is laid out?

I'm not sure if this answer your question.

112,000 UK nationals in 2006. (http://beyond2020.cso.ie/Census/TableViewer/tableView.aspx?ReportId=76485)

From here
http://www.cso.ie/census/..%5Ccensus%5Cdocuments%5CPROFILES%20OF%20NATIONALITIES%201-5.pdf

It says alot of them are attached to Irish people, ie married/relationship.

69,000 of that 112,000 have both UK and Irish in their household, they are settled here for a long time i reckon and most probably are integrated if not already.

We all know English people settled here I know 5 couples personally who are Irish and UK nationals where some of those UK nationals are of Irish stock.

I'd go by the census results to get trends of UK nationals here.

60% of UK nationals own their homes, 7% Polish do. Draw your own conclusions about the putting down roots thing

djpbarry

free to prosper wrote: »

Lets see, almost half a million workers have come from Eastern Europe post 2004.

FutureTaoiseach wrote: »

There are around 500,000 foreign nationals if you bear in mind two variables...

Careful now; you’ll do someone an injury throwing those goalposts around like that.

djpbarry

O'Morris wrote: »

Almost half a million workers have come from from eastern Europe since 2004

You can see for yourself by taking a look at this. If you count up the PPS numbers issued to people from the 10 accession states since 2004 you'll see that it adds up to well over 480,000.

How many entered the workforce?

free to prosper

O'Morris wrote: »

It's not incorrect. Almost half a million workers have come from from eastern Europe since 2004

You can see for yourself by taking a look at this. If you count up the PPS numbers issued to people from the 10 accession states since 2004 you'll see that it adds up to well over 480,000.

... Over 300,000 PPS numbers have been issued to Polish people since 2004. The number issued to people from the United Kingdom (which includes part of Ireland) was 68,688.

djpbarry
It has already been pointed out that almost half a million pps number have been issued to eastern Europeans.

You are trying in vain to get others hung up in minuteia so people forget about the big picture which is

EU fanatics have done huge damage to Irish economy by screwing us with inappropriate euro interest rates and double wammied us with mass immigration.

All compounded by Euro Court of Justice judgements such as Laval and Ruffert in which native workers get absolutely wasted to the benefit of multi-national capital.

K-9

free to prosper wrote: »

EU fanatics have done huge damage to Irish economy by screwing us with inappropriate euro interest rates and double wammied us with mass immigration.

This has been covered at length on this current thread here. If you still accept that even now, well, not much point replying to you.

djpbarry

free to prosper wrote: »

It has already been pointed out that almost half a million pps number have been issued to eastern Europeans.

So what? How many entered the workforce? How many are still here? Did this immigration result in a net loss to the exchequer (either directly or indirectly)?

free to prosper wrote: »

You are trying in vain to get others hung up in minuteia so people forget about the big picture which is

Oh I’m sorry; you’ll have to excuse me for getting “hung up” on facts and not taking at face value statements such as:

free to prosper wrote: »

EU fanatics have done huge damage to Irish economy by screwing us with inappropriate euro interest rates and double wammied us with mass immigration.

You’re just repeating this ad nauseum, without actually demonstrating that we would have been better off without the euro and better off without immigration.

free to prosper

Aw, k-9 No need to take a huff because of the numbers about half a million Eastern European etc. stacked up.

And your failed attempt to bog arguement down in a little numbers game came to nought.

Brian Lenihan has given away great ammo to the NO side and they will not doubt make hay with it until neverendum day.

Do you accept that euro membership gave us innappropriate interest rates?

Do you accept that mass immigration from Eastern Europe helped facilitate a property bubble and overheated economy?

And that the Treaty of Nice was required before this mass immigration could take place. The Treaty of Nice facilitated this mass movement of workers from Eastern EUrope?


You notice in my last post:

All compounded by Euro Court of Justice judgements such as Laval and Ruffert in which native workers get absolutely wasted to the benefit of multi-national capital.

YOu may notice in today's irish Times:

DO you seriously think that any of these Irish workers who lost their job because of job displacement to cheaper Eastern European labour will vote Yes to Lisbon, and the European Court of Justice which gave us the Laval judgement etc ?

I suspect they will all vote NO.

Irish Times Friday, July 10, 2009

Firm hires migrant workers to 'keep manners on Paddies'

A COMPANY involved in a bitter industrial relations dispute in Co Tipperary is hiring migrant workers because the owner claims they are more efficient and less likely to be absent than Irish workers.

Martin Sheahan, owner of waste-disposal company Mr Binman, has infuriated members of the Siptu trade union by claiming that: “The Paddy is the best man in the world when he goes abroad to work but he’s a different man at home.” He made the comments during a recent interview with the Irish Farmer’s Journal.

He told The Irish Times yesterday that he stood over the “fair comment” and confirmed that he had “hired non-nationals to keep manners on the Paddies”.

A group of Mr Binman workers, who have been on strike for more than seven weeks, held a street protest and march yesterday morning in Carrick-on-Suir. They claim that they are being forced to take “drastic” pay cuts of up to 49 per cent and work longer hours.

oscarBravo

free to prosper wrote: »

DO you seriously think that any of these Irish workers who lost their job because of job displacement to cheaper Eastern European labour will vote less to Lisbon, and the European Court of Justice which gave us the Laval judgement etc - will vote for Lisbon?

I suspect they will all vote NO.

I suspect you're right - after all, it's only natural that we should demand all the benefits of EU membership, but not at the expense of durty furriners tekkin ur jawbs.

FutureTaoiseach

oscarBravo wrote: »

I suspect you're right - after all, it's only natural that we should demand all the benefits of EU membership, but not at the expense of durty furriners tekkin ur jawbs.

I think its the policy that annoys people, not the immigrants themselves.

free to prosper

You are right, FT job displacement is not he fault of the foreign workers.

They themselves are being exploited for lower wages and conditions than is normal in Ireland.

It is the Laval and Ruffert judgements from the European Court of Justice - relying on the Charter of "Fundamental" Rights which copperfastens the exploitation of foreign labour and the displacement of Irish workers from their jobs.

And as I said, the Irish men will be voting NO.

You can bet your overpriced house on it.

djpbarry

free to prosper wrote: »

You are right, FT job displacement is not he fault of the foreign workers.

They themselves are being exploited for lower wages and conditions than is normal in Ireland.

Evidence?

free to prosper wrote: »

It is the Laval and Ruffert judgements from the European Court of Justice - relying on the Charter of "Fundamental" Rights which copperfastens the exploitation of foreign labour and the displacement of Irish workers from their jobs.

How many Irish people have lost their jobs as a direct result of those rulings? I'll accept a ball-park figure.

oscarBravo

free to prosper wrote: »

You are right, FT job displacement is not he fault of the foreign workers.

They themselves are being exploited for lower wages and conditions than is normal in Ireland.

It is the Laval and Ruffert judgements from the European Court of Justice - relying on the Charter of "Fundamental" Rights which copperfastens the exploitation of foreign labour and the displacement of Irish workers from their jobs.

Can you explain the relevance of Laval and/or Ruffert to the Mr Binman situation?

And as I said, the Irish men will be voting NO.

Do they believe it will get them their jobs back? Do you?

K-9

gurramok wrote: »

For Nice, they did.

Anyway, i have anecdotal from a few foreigners in my place who have said 'alot of my friends have left the country in the last few months. others are still looking for work and others are trying to hang onto to their jobs'.

Most foreigners rent(as per last examination of CSO returns). The rental market has a chronic availability of vacancies, it can't be all down to oversupply

I don't think that half a million number will hold up to scrutiny in the next census(is it 2011?), expect that number to decrease in half if not more.

I don't know if anybody can prove the political parties knew in 01/02 what was going to happen our economy in 08/09. We all now how inept they are in forward planning so I think Free to Prospers slur is giving them too much credit. But hey, they are politicians and easy targets.

free to prosper wrote: »

Aw, k-9 No need to take a huff because of the numbers about half a million Eastern European etc. stacked up.

And your failed attempt to bog arguement down in a little numbers game came to nought.

Brian Lenihan has given away great ammo to the NO side and they will not doubt make hay with it until neverendum day.

Do you accept that euro membership gave us innappropriate interest rates?

Do you accept that mass immigration from Eastern Europe helped facilitate a property bubble and overheated economy?

And that the Treaty of Nice was required before this mass immigration could take place. The Treaty of Nice facilitated this mass movement of workers from Eastern EUrope?


You notice in my last post:

All compounded by Euro Court of Justice judgements such as Laval and Ruffert in which native workers get absolutely wasted to the benefit of multi-national capital.

YOu may notice in today's irish Times:

DO you seriously think that any of these Irish workers who lost their job because of job displacement to cheaper Eastern European labour will vote Yes to Lisbon, and the European Court of Justice which gave us the Laval judgement etc ?

I suspect they will all vote NO.

Irish Times Friday, July 10, 2009

LOL Free to prosper. It looks like there was 500,000 here at different stages, but not now. I don't have a major problem with the figures, some do.

I blame our Govt. for extremely bad policy and reliance on construction windfall taxes, you blame them foreigners in the ECB and immigration.

K-9

A striking driver, who did not wish to be named, said his take-home pay was €650 a week,



Good God of almighty. That would be a Gross of about €850 and another €90 a week Employers PRSI. Madness.

free to prosper

"Firm hires migrant workers to 'keep manners on Paddies'" was a headline in today's Irish Times. A bin collection firm in Carrick-on-Suir hiring migrant workers from Eastern Europe has been hit by a strike by 27 Irish workers, some of whom have been told to work longer hours and take a 49 percent pay cut - or walk.

It was the Treaty of Nice and this Fianna Fail government which facilitated large scale economic migration from Eastern Europe after May 2004.

Foreign workers themselves are being exploited for lower conditions than is normal in Ireland.

This is helped by the Laval and Ruffert judgements from the European Court of Justice - relying on the Charter of "Fundamental" Rights which copperfastens the exploitation of foreign labour and the displacement of workers from their jobs.

Does this failed government seriously think that any of these Irish workers in Tipperary, or those for instance, from Irish Ferries who lost their job because of job displacement to cheaper Eastern European labour, will vote Yes to Lisbon, and give more power to the European Court of Justice which gave us the Laval judgement etc ?

How many on boards.ie think the displaced Irish workers above will all vote NO?

Irish Times 10/7/09

passed on these thoughts by a fellow worker from Cork.

P. Breathnach

free to prosper wrote: »

... This is helped by the Laval and Ruffert judgements from the European Court of Justice - relying on the Charter of "Fundamental" Rights which copperfastens the exploitation of foreign labour and the displacement of workers from their jobs....

Wrong. Both these cases are concerned with the rights of firms to trade across borders, and not with circumstances that do not involve cross-border trade.

K-9

free to prosper wrote: »

"Firm hires migrant workers to 'keep manners on Paddies'" was a headline in today's Irish Times. A bin collection firm in Carrick-on-Suir hiring migrant workers from Eastern Europe has been hit by a strike by 27 Irish workers, some of whom have been told to work longer hours and take a 49 percent pay cut - or walk.

It was the Treaty of Nice and this Fianna Fail government which facilitated large scale economic migration from Eastern Europe after May 2004.

Foreign workers themselves are being exploited for lower conditions than is normal in Ireland.

This is helped by the Laval and Ruffert judgements from the European Court of Justice - relying on the Charter of "Fundamental" Rights which copperfastens the exploitation of foreign labour and the displacement of workers from their jobs.

Does this failed government seriously think that any of these Irish workers in Tipperary, or those for instance, from Irish Ferries who lost their job because of job displacement to cheaper Eastern European labour, will vote Yes to Lisbon, and give more power to the European Court of Justice which gave us the Laval judgement etc ?

How many on boards.ie think the displaced Irish workers above will all vote NO?

Irish Times 10/7/09

passed on these thoughts by a fellow worker from Cork.

In fairness, the Owner does have a point but he could have been more diplomatic, but sure rather than face the fact that our obsession with property has driven our wages to a mad level and we don't want to take any responsibility for it, we'll just blame the Poles etc.

free to prosper

K-p
No one is blaming the Poles.

The blame lies with those who told us to vote Yes to Nice and who gave us mass immigration.

This bad advice is compounded by telling us to vote for Lisbon and the Charter of Retractable Rights which in Laval and Ruffert allows exploitation of foreign labour and displacement of native workers.

Last poster may be technically correct only if these workers are not being hired through foreign sub-contractor.
This is however, quite likely to be the case.

PopeBuckfastXVI

free to prosper wrote: »

This is however, quite likely to be the case.

Well if you have proof let's see it, otherwise you are just engaged in speculation.

K-9

free to prosper wrote: »

K-p
No one is blaming the Poles.

Plenty will free to prosper, plenty will. That's the danger with this opinion. Instead of taking responsibility and admitting we have priced ourselves out of the market, they'll just blame the immigrants.

free to prosper wrote:

The blame lies with those who told us to vote Yes to Nice and who gave us mass immigration.

Well that's your opinion. I don't believe there was a cunning plan by FF/FG and Labour to dupe us at the time.

free to prosper wrote:

This bad advice is compounded by telling us to vote for Lisbon and the Charter of Retractable Rights which in Laval and Ruffert allows exploitation of foreign labour and displacement of native workers.

Oh, so it's advice now, but it was lies in Nice.