FAQ: Analogue, DTT, Aerials

Peter Rhea

The group B aerial would be worth trying for mux 1 (UHF channel 54) if you want.

If this delivers encouraging results, the long term solution would be a decent group C/D, something with higher gain than a 10-element 'contract' & preferably (maybe necessarily) outside.

What exactly is used to combine & distribute the signal atm?

mdfire

Peter Rhea wrote: »

The group B aerial would be worth trying for mux 1 (UHF channel 54) if you want.

If this delivers encouraging results, the long term solution would be a decent group C/D, something with higher gain than a 10-element 'contract' & preferably (maybe necessarily) outside.

What exactly is used to combine & distribute the signal atm?

Thanks Peter. I will try the Group B aerial.

If I was to change would something like this do the job?

http://www.diy.com/diy/jsp/bq/nav.jsp?action=detail&fh_secondid=9686772&fh_location=//catalog01/en_GB/categories%3C{9372015}/categories%3C{9372042}/categories%3C{9792018}/categories%3C{9792037}/specificationsProductType=aerials___brackets

I am not to clued up on aerials, boosters etc. and it has taken me a while to work out what the guy installed in the attic. But essentially there is the Southern pointing aerial going to a booster, and then the cable out of this and the cable from the Northern aerial goes into a mixer which then goes to an 8way distribution ampflier and from there around the house.

Peter Rhea

This site has lots of info about all things aerial related & will explain such subjects as aerial groups & the correct use of amplifiers.

That aerial you linked to is a wideband type which usually perform alright in the group C/D channel range. That particular one wouldn't be the sturdiest or best value for money, though.

I recently got one of these for group C/D use.

The Cush

mdfire wrote: »

OK, had a play about with booster which I dont think was wired properly and this is what I am getting

RTE 1 - 535.18
RTE 2 - 567.18
TV3 - 583.31
TG4 - 711.25

Picture quality poor, particularly on TV3 and TG4 though I havent really adjusted aerial to see if there is any improvment.

RTÉ 1 - 535.18 - UHF 29 (Three Rock, Group A)
RTÉ 2 - 567.18 - UHF 33 (Three Rock, Group A)
TV3 - 583.31 - UHF 35 (Three Rock, Group A)
TG4 - 711.25 - UHF 51 (Carlingford, Group , Three Rock = 743.25 - UHF 55 Group C/D

For all 4 Three Rock analogue channels a Group W (wideband) Black Tip aerial is required. The Group A red tip aerial will cover the first 3 channels with TG4 in Group C/D.

Saorview DTT from Three Rock - UHF 54 (aerial Group C/D green tip or Group W if analogue is also required).

Attic aerials are only recommended if you are in a good signal area, the roof attenuates (reduces, eats) signal. External aerial recommended for your location.

I'd stay away from places like B&Q for aerials, I've used CPC Farnell (as linked by Peter Rhea above).

http://www.cai.org.uk/information/benchmarking-scheme
http://www.cai.org.uk/information/downloads?task=finish&cid=6&catid=4

mdfire

Thanks guys. Learnt a lot today!

I will give the chap who did the original install a ring tomorrow to see if he can come out and put the correct aerial on my roof externally.

lucernarian

I don't think the problem is with the aerials being in the attic. I suspect they're combined incorrectly and weren't wired properly to be fed into the one cable and amp.

The best way to proceed will involve giving up good reception of analogue TV3, though it's going to be switched off next year! You'll still get old analogue RTE/TG4 somewhat weakly on the aerial for Kilkeel as the "Carlingford" relay is actually in Greenore and will come in on the back of the Kilkeel aerial. The other aerial for Saorview will pick up analogue TV3 though with some fuzz on 799.25 MHz from the other Dublin Mountains transmitter.

If you get some sort of wideband or Group C/D aerial, have that connected to an appropriate amp and then fed into a combiner (or the mixer as you called it) like this one: http://www.falconsat.co.uk/products/TRIAX-TMC-5153-STP-Switchable-DC-Pass.html and there are many similar products out there, fringe electronics stuff is often used by installers in Louth. Then all this can be connected to the existing distribution amp.


In summary:
Your Group B aerial for the northern irish channels can still be used as is, it's just the red-tipped aerial and probably the "mixer" that will have to be swapped out. Perhaps the amp might need replacing also. The installer should know what to do if you tell him you want to get Saorview from the Dublin transmitters as well as your analogue NI channels. If you want to use your old sky box for the NI channels only then you could just buy any wideband aerial, plug it into the distribution amp and point it southwards avoiding as many obstacles as possible in the path towards Dublin.

mdfire

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

I don't think the problem is with the aerials being in the attic. I suspect they're combined incorrectly and weren't wired properly to be fed into the one cable and amp.

The best way to proceed will involve giving up good reception of analogue TV3, though it's going to be switched off next year! You'll still get old analogue RTE/TG4 somewhat weakly on the aerial for Kilkeel as the "Carlingford" relay is actually in Greenore and will come in on the back of the Kilkeel aerial. The other aerial for Saorview will pick up analogue TV3 though with some fuzz on 799.25 MHz from the other Dublin Mountains transmitter.

If you get some sort of wideband or Group C/D aerial, have that connected to an appropriate amp and then fed into a combiner (or the mixer as you called it) like this one: http://www.falconsat.co.uk/products/TRIAX-TMC-5153-STP-Switchable-DC-Pass.html and there are many similar products out there, fringe electronics stuff is often used by installers in Louth. Then all this can be connected to the existing distribution amp.


In summary:
Your Group B aerial for the northern irish channels can still be used as is, it's just the red-tipped aerial and probably the "mixer" that will have to be swapped out. Perhaps the amp might need replacing also. The installer should know what to do if you tell him you want to get Saorview from the Dublin transmitters as well as your analogue NI channels. If you want to use your old sky box for the NI channels only then you could just buy any wideband aerial, plug it into the distribution amp and point it southwards avoiding as many obstacles as possible in the path towards Dublin.

Yip, spoke to installer and he confirms what you say. Should be no problem getting Saorview with attic aerial but the aerial, mixer and possiblly the amp will need swapping. Coming Friday morning to install.

mdfire

New wide band aerial and amp and picking up channel 54 fine Over 90% signal strenght with aerial in attic.

I did have problems last night where the DTT signal kept dropping, freezing etc However, I did a firmware upgrade on the Ferguson Ariva 120 Combo and didnt do a factory reset afterwards which apparently I supposed to do. Did that this morning and all seems fine now.

One question though is that I am only getting RTE1, 2, TV3, TG4, RTE news, 3e. No childrens channel. Does this only broadcast at certain times?

Also picking up 8 "Future Channels". One is broadcasting RTE NL, others just test card and test ones.

Edit: Just seen that Childrens channels is 9-6.30 weekdays.

The Cush

mdfire wrote: »

New wide band aerial and amp and picking up channel 54 fine Over 90% signal strenght with aerial in attic.

Does it give a signal quality reading, a better indicator than signal strength?

mdfire

90% signal quality, 85% strength. Got them wrong way round.

shamtastic

Apologies if this question is posted in the wrong place but if I have a normal aerial at the moment with poor reception, will saorview be able to recieve signal better than places that usually I find it difficult to get a good picture? Thanks.

lucernarian

If you have a rooftop aerial which is working poorly and you live in a part of Kildare which is reasonably flat and gets good RTÉ Radio then I'd expect the problem's with the aerial. Some people's rooftop aerials can have a broken cable to them or suchlike and in that case a rabbits ears would work better!

It depends on how poor the reception is really. Your TG4 could be very snowy, unable to pick up teletext and it can still handle Saorview! Either way, you may as well get a box as the existing analogue TVs will need a Saorview box to pick up terrestrial TV anyway. You might be lucky and find an indoor aerial works at a window or else get someone out to fix the aerial. Saorview often will work with basic outdoor aerials even if the analogue TV needed a big aerial for RTE for example.

The Cush

shamtastic wrote: »

Apologies if this question is posted in the wrong place but if I have a normal aerial at the moment with poor reception, will saorview be able to recieve signal better than places that usually I find it difficult to get a good picture? Thanks.

Do you know what transmitter you currently receive analogue from? Do you have 2 aerials (VHF/UHF) for analogue?

Use the Saorview coverage checker to find the best transmitter for your area and the aerial required - http://www.saorview.ie/make-the-switch/coverage-checker/

MRPRO03

I'm from Navan, which is a reasonable distance from the nearest Transmitter, would it be possible to have an indoor aerial ?

lucernarian

It's simply impossible to say. Practically all of Navan can get Saorview with a rooftop aerial but indoors would be much more restricted. I wouldn't have any hope if you lived beside the Boyne. Higher up, you may have a chance if you've access to a window facing south or west which you could leave an indoor aerial at.

It might be more likely in October next year when the transmitter near Dundalk increases its power but all things considered I wouldn't hold my breath. Many people have indoor aerials, you could get a lend of one and try it out. Or buy one of the €2 aerials in a shop. The expensive ones in the likes of Argos are not much better and certainly not worth €40.

warlikedave

FRIENDO wrote: »

Living East/South/East of Gorey, Put up a Triax 52B aerial with a plug in single booster getting perfect UK Freeview on all channels, channel 42,43,46 and 49 100% signal and strength, however unable to combine with saorview as I live in a week saorview area.
Nice to have extra channels such as Yesterday, Quest, Challenge, 5# and 5 USA, 4music and Viva also works out cheap for multiroom.

After reading the advice ye gave a while back I have been shopping around for the last while - ive come up with the following 5 as possible replacements for my 10 element:

http://www.triax.co.uk/Products/Aerials/UHF%20Aerials/Supergain%20-%20Yagi%20Aerials.aspx?productId={36D81A39-9DF4-4E6B-9B84-B143B8D2EDE0}&Tab=0

http://www.triax.co.uk/Products/Aerials/UHF%20Aerials/Unix%20Aerials.aspx?productId={9426E887-1D3A-4E78-BF84-27E6534A3FF0}&Tab=0
(second one recommended to my by a fellow member of boards but im thinking of going with widebeam but will still consider group B (preslie reception) )

http://www.pixmania.ie/ie/uk/2305905/art/one-for-all/sv-9352-outdoor-antenna.html

http://www.pixmania.ie/ie/uk/1780392/art/one-for-all/sv9355-outdoor-digital-an.html#pix-review

http://www.satellitetv.ie/shop/index.php?controller=product&product_id=74

Can anyone advise me futher on the 5 and which one would be best to procede with? Also can someone explain the concept of Front to back ratio gain and also gain as shown in the two traix ones

example:
Gain 14,5 dBi Front To Back Ratio >25 dB

and how it compares to the total gain mentioned in the pixmania site? My situation currently is the same as i discussed before. Intermittent (good weather only with high pressure involved) signal using a 10 element 12 db gain (nothing ever mentioned about back to forth ratio) i think with reflector top and bottom - think its a Yagi type antenna. I have a 15db masthead amp as well but do i need anything else to improve the signal? Its for freeview reception. Saorview doesnt concern me for this setup

Also is there any online shop that take laser card (besides pixmania) for this sort of thing?

Sorry to bring this back for discussion but I am unsure on how to procede

FRIENDO

Hi warlikedave,

I have used both group B and wideband and I have found group B to be better for Preseli. I hope to post pictures of my set up later.

http://www.ukfree.tv/shutdowndetail.php?tx=SN172306

Above is a coverage checker for Preseli, some parts of Co. Wexford and Co. Wicklow are shown to have strong coverage.
This may give you an idea as you may need a better group B than the ones above.

I got my aerials from freesat.ie, He takes laser and can order what ever you need.
I think satellite.ie can also help in this department.

With the above link you can zoom into your location,(edit)

Peter Rhea

Good selection & prices here. No real 'dx' aerials though, unless you include something like a DAT 75.

Triax Unix 100s (P18 of 18 MB pdf, here) don't seem to be widely available online & 'local' retailers seem to really jack up the price on them, though they're available to the trade for not much more than a Unix 52 . . .

warlikedave

Im currently looking at this one

http://www.satellitetv.ie/shop/index.php?controller=product&path=48_66&product_id=311

Talked to the guy who works for this site and he stated that its been tested by him and picks up the sligo transmitter (truskmore i think) from the south coast of galway - for saorview. Your thoughts about performance and price?

Still not sure myself - the triax ones came recommended...aye they are a pain to find though

Peter Rhea

That aerial seems overpriced for what it is, it's most likely one of these; http://cpcireland.farnell.com/antiference/xt87/aerial-87-element-f-conn/dp/AP02129

odyboody

All around me the neighbours were getting new aerials installed. Me being a cheapskate decided to try the cheap route first.
Bought cheap Aerial and connected it saor view tuner, no good:(.
Tried same cheap aerial but up in attic, happy days:).
I suspect some salesman has been around the doors and convinced everyone they need a new fancy Digital aerial.

My advise try the cheap aerial route first most your going to loose is the €5 you spent on the cheap aerial, (or go realy cheap and try a neighbours first);)

warlikedave

odyboody wrote: »

All around me the neighbours were getting new aerials installed. Me being a cheapskate decided to try the cheap route first.
Bought cheap Aerial and connected it saor view tuner, no good:(.
Tried same cheap aerial but up in attic, happy days:).
I suspect some salesman has been around the doors and convinced everyone they need a new fancy Digital aerial.

My advise try the cheap aerial route first most your going to loose is the €5 you spent on the cheap aerial, (or go realy cheap and try a neighbours first);)

It does seem overpriced As for the cheap option - aye i did. I got a 10 element wideband 12db gain ariel but freeview (no probs getting saorview) just fades in and out with the weather. So looks like a more expensive route is needed. Cheers though.

Cheers to everyone for your responces on this so far Ill have to do more shopping around and asking a few more questions before i decide to invest in an aerial

FRIENDO

Hi warlikedave, took a few pictures today.

DSCF0433[2].JPG
Wideband aerial for Forth Mountain 52V and possible 56V in future.
Triax 52B aerial for 42H, 43H, 46H and 49H Preseli, you could also get HD on 50 however I dont have hd/t2 box.

DSCF0434[2].jpg
Attic, cables from both aerials ran into seperate amp's.

DSCF0435[2].jpg
Spagetti Junction behind a TV. Freeview sent to 3 TV's and Saorview to 2 TV's.

DSCF0438[1].jpg

DSCF0437[1].jpg

I have used both the 52B and the wideband for Presli both having good results, I found the 52B to be slightly better.
I rather the wideband for Forth as future 56V is slightly out of group B range.

Vince Cable

Peter Rhea wrote: »

Antiference aerial is probably similar to this one

Don't know about that, the length given in the specs (1110 cm) suggests a tri-boom type if it's a '48 element'.

Peter Rhea

I believe you're correct, don't know how I missed this one earlier. This seems to be a so-called 48 element, not 87.

I only noticed it while looking through the actual physical catalogue. I'll edit my other post . . .

Vince Cable

It doesn't seem to be on Antiference's own site, an 87 element version would be like a DAT 75 (we don't need any more of those).

alida62

watty wrote: »

Depends on where you live. There are only poor and terrible internal antennas.

All in Ones are terrible.

At least an aerial in attic, best is outdoor. Very few places have enough signal for decent indoor.

Example of Maghera, Mullaghanish, Kippure, Mt Leinster, Truskmore VHF RTE1 & RTE 2 only Internal aerial
http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=8967&criteria=TV%20aerial&doy=3m7



Example of TV3/TG4 UHF aerial for all areas and also RTE1 & RTE2 for all areas not above (Spur Hill, WoodCock Hill, Three Rock, Longford/Clermont Cairn, Louth Cairn Hill, Holywell/Holyhill? Derry/Donegal and all relays/repeaters/deflectors/transposers)
http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=33215&criteria=TV%20aerial&doy=3m7


If these don't work (can be combined with a Y splitter) in room, add coax to put them at Windowsill, top of shelf, attic etc.

If that is not enough an outdoor aerial in Attic.

Amplifiers are only to be fitted about 4ft /1.2m from an Aerial to make up for cable loss. TVs are sensitive enough and too much gain near TV picks up interference and boosts noise. Avoid amplied internal aerials.


These aerials are available locally in Ireland as little as 6 Euro each. If they are not good enough you need a larger aerial in attic or preferably outside.

This can go in attic or outdoors:
http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?TabID=1&ModuleNo=36354&doy=3m7

For fringe reception four of these using 2 x Y + 1 xY combiners/splitters often works better than one large much more expensive aerial.

The bow tie / fish fryer aerial is wideband for the whole UHF band (no use for VHF) and will work in attic or outdoors in reasonable signal areas
Front view

 ><
 ><
 ><
 ><
(horizontal)

 v v v v
 ^ ^ ^ ^
rotated on side for Vertical polarised.

It has a large mesh reflector behind the four sets of aerial rods.

Never use a Band II/VHF horizontal / halo aerial in Ireland.

Note there is NO SUCH THING as a Digital Aerial. Signals for Digital TV use the same Aerials, dishes or cable and actually are Analogue RF.

An RTE BandIII log Periodic aerial is fine for DAB.

As a complete novice to DTT, I found your posts very informative. any advice for how to get DTT in a ground floor apartment in ballsbridge. Have a balcony but outdoor aerial would want to be discrete as prob not encouraged by management company. Hope to be moving out of here at some stage next few months so want something that I can take with me. My tv is an LG 32LG5050-2D so not sure what it has or hasnt got in terms of MPeg etc. Would be it worth getting someone out to advice and install or is that unneccessary. Am reasonably technical

warlikedave

Thank you very much folks for all the advice and especially to FRIENDO for taking the time to post pics of his setup as well Im just looking online at the moment at the suggestions ye have given me see what i cna get for good value Im leaning towards the wideband at the moment

Question though - how does it compare to the 12 element 12db one i have in terms of db gain? This site below only says that its at 15db gain but it doesnt even mention anything else? Im just wanting to learn how to properly compare ariels by the values provided on sites

http://www.tvaerials.com/product.aspx?productid=2341

I see this triax version as well: http://cpc.farnell.com/1/1/60285-aerial-43-element-f-conn-digi-343-triax.html
Any thoughts?

lucernarian

alida62 wrote: »

As a complete novice to DTT, I found your posts very informative. any advice for how to get DTT in a ground floor apartment in ballsbridge. Have a balcony but outdoor aerial would want to be discrete as prob not encouraged by management company. Hope to be moving out of here at some stage next few months so want something that I can take with me. My tv is an LG 32LG5050-2D so not sure what it has or hasnt got in terms of MPeg etc. Would be it worth getting someone out to advice and install or is that unneccessary. Am reasonably technical

Have you tried any kind of aerial so far? There are guides for cheap homemade aerials on the net by the way which would work much better than the one for all muck or indeed the cheap unamplified aerials and for little cost and effort.

warlikedave

Have decided to go with this aerial - ordered and hopefully will have it soon

http://cpc.farnell.com/1/1/60285-aerial-43-element-f-conn-digi-343-triax.html

Shall let you know how i get on with it