Foinse goes out of business

Riamfada

Im glad I got outa this!

dlofnep

Welcome back Grimes.

ztoical

An Fear Aniar wrote: »

The parents on the Aran islands speak Irish to the kids and the kids reply in English so.... guthanna in éag.

When were you last out on the islands? cus last time I was out I didn't see that, all my friends kids spoke to me in Irish. One of my friends is one of the primary school teachers and she has two polish kids in her class that speak perfect Irish and Polish and very little english.

Foinse closing is more a reflection on the state of the printing/publishing industry and not the state of the irish language.

Acid_Violet

K4t wrote: »

Then do the exams like the majority of students ffs!

Always good to see an open-minded comment so eloquently expressed.....

That argument about it being harder to undertsnad the questions doesn't hold up I'm afraid.

You're right. In fact that wasn't the argument I was making. The exams are written in English and then translated into Irish. The examiners intend on the exam papers being unambiguous and straight-forward (for the student who has done their work.) But when you're meant to translate the German word for 'holiday rep' into Irish, there is no direct translation, you have to fiddle around with different words till you get the most accurate translation, which inevitably wastes time.

Tbh, you seem to be very closed-minded about this but if you'd done it you'd know all about it. But you probably think that me saying that is only Gaeilgeoir snobbery on my part......

You are choosing to sit the exams through irish. Nobody is forcing you etc. If it's too hard tfor you then that should be your tough luck.

It's not too hard for me, it'd harder for everyone due to the reason I've given above.

This bonus points criac is bull****.

The minute difference that the bonus points makes (see link in my original post) makes up for the minute disadvantage students face when doing exams which were originally set in another language.

Bandit12

Good riddence

K4t

Acid_Violet wrote: »

The minute difference that the bonus points makes (see link in my original post) makes up for the minute disadvantage students face when doing exams which were originally set in another language.

I understand where you're coming from tbh but I just disagree with the whole thing. I don't mind there being the option to do the exam through Irish but the allocation of the bonus points does annoy me, therefore the option should be removed, English is the main language of the country and all students should sit the exam through English. Equality!

JC 2K3

There is equality. Anyone can sit any exam through Irish and get bonus points if they wish.

Why more students don't learn a few terms and sit, for example, the maths exam through Irish, I don't know.

K4t

JC 2K3 wrote: »

There is equality. Anyone can sit any exam through Irish and get bonus points if they wish.

Why more students don't learn a few terms and sit, for example, the maths exam through Irish, I don't know.

Eh, not everyone lives in the gaelthacht. Not everyone is brought up in Irish speaking households. Not everyone has access to irish speaking primary and secondary schools. Not everyone has the ability to speak two languages fluently. Of course there is inequality! Saying otherwise is just being ignorant. Kind of like irish speakers are ignorant about the language being dead.

JC 2K3

I don't live in the Gaeltacht, nor was I brought up in an Irish speaking household. I did have access to an Irish speaking secondary school, which I attended, but I think they're widespread enough to render your point about access moot.

As for not everyone having the ability to speak two languages fluently - I lol'd. The whole point of the Leaving Cert is to separate people based on academic ability across a broad range of subjects.

K4t

JC 2K3 wrote: »

I don't live in the Gaeltacht, nor was I brought up in an Irish speaking household. I did have access to an Irish speaking secondary school, which I attended, but I think they're widespread enough to render your point about access moot.

They're not.

JC 2K3 wrote: »

As for not everyone having the ability to speak two languages fluently - I lol'd. The whole point of the Leaving Cert is to separate people based on academic ability across a broad range of subjects.

I lol'ed. Maybe in theory, but in reality it's nothing more than an over hyped memory test.

Acid_Violet

K4t wrote: »

Eh, not everyone lives in the gaelthacht. Not everyone is brought up in Irish speaking households. Not everyone has access to irish speaking primary and secondary schools. Not everyone has the ability to speak two languages fluently. Of course there is inequality! Saying otherwise is just being ignorant. Kind of like irish speakers are ignorant about the language being dead.

Not everyone makes the effort?

EDIT: It's ignorant to say that the language isn't dead? It's not dead to me! I take offense to being called 'ignorant' about the fact that my second language is alive to me, a language that I use and I like! Dead to you, fair enough, but don't go calling me ignorant for speaking and liking this language!

Acid_Violet

K4t wrote: »

I understand where you're coming from tbh but I just disagree with the whole thing. I don't mind there being the option to do the exam through Irish but the allocation of the bonus points does annoy me, therefore the option should be removed

Why does the allocation of bonus points annoy you so? Just the idea of it? Do you not see how it's not an unfair advantage but a way to balance a slight disadvantage?

English is the main language of the country and all students should sit the exam through English. Equality!

Even the Polish, Lithuanians, Chinese and other nationalities who normally sit a literature paper in their mother-language rather than in English?

Wibbs

dlofnep wrote: »

Based on what info? Show me proof for where most people in Ireland don't want to learn the Irish language.

Eh the simple fact that they don't would be a fairly obvious one. YOu can call it apathy all you want, but most don't speak it. So either the Irish have a built in genetic apathy, unlike the basques, the catalans, the flemish, the former satellite states of the soviet union etc, or they simply have no real, practical interest beyond the abstract.

Powerhouse wrote:

I haven't the remotest notion what hypothetical figures I was throwing around - perhaps you could point them out.

Elton John and premier league footballists and such. Figures do not always indicate numbers.

Nothing else new in what you say except this interesting question I have highlighted. What a hell of a good question. You should have said earlier you could communicate in the language (forget a language - it was Irish, not high German I had in mind when I made those comparisons). Bheinn lánsásta an t-ábhar cainte a phlé gan bhéarla a usáid as seo amach, mar sin má tá fonn ortsa léim istigh.

Sorry ted/tedess, ease off the oul ego there, I was referring to the general "we" not you and me. In any case, in the words of blackadder, "no speako dago", so even if your point scoring had merit, it would be lost on me, a fellow Irish person who doesn't understand you. Says much about the "irish" language as a cultural entity, as a practical entity when the majority of people reading that line could pick out one or two words and little more. Oh sure you will say I'm being majoritististists, but I prefer to look at the reality. As an intellectual pursuit I say grand, as a hobby or interest I say grand, as a way to preserve something I say grand, I don't say grand when millions are wasted on it year after year for decades, when those resources would be better placed in other more practical and fruitful avenues(including the Irish language BTW).

Acid_Violet wrote:

Even the Polish, Lithuanians, Chinese and other nationalities who normally sit a literature paper in their mother-language rather than in English?

Well obviously, unless you want to create language ghettos as well. Whatever is the vernacular, should be the examining language, regardless of ones origins if that is the country you choose to sit the exam. Whether that be french, mandarin, or english. Obviously training in said vernacular is paramount, but I can't rock up to do the Italian equivalent of the LC and expect them to translate into what happens to my primary method of communication. Utterly daft to think otherwise.

Wibbs

K4t wrote: »

I lol'ed. Maybe in theory, but in reality it's nothing more than an over hyped memory test.

Not far off. One of my relatives went to an Irish school in the 50's. Did well in her exams too. Couldn't speak a word of it afterward or now. Learning by rote essentially and in that context useless.

dlofnep

Wibbs wrote: »

Eh the simple fact that they don't would be a fairly obvious one. YOu can call it apathy all you want, but most don't speak it. So either the Irish have a built in genetic apathy, unlike the basques, the catalans, the flemish, the former satellite states of the soviet union etc, or they simply have no real interest beyond the abstract.

Terrible logic.

They don't because they can't. They can't because the curriculum is flawed, and because there are either no provisions to learn it outside of school, or because it's costly to do so.

While some genuinely don't want to learn it, if I could count the amount of times I met people who told me that they would love to learn the language, I'd be a rich man. Almost everyone in our local comments on the language anytime they hear me speak it, often joining in with the cúpla focal they have.

You're entrenched in your opinion and that's about the bones of it. You can't accept the reality that people are genuinely interested in the language, a large mass of people - but just like any other adult, find it next to impossible to learn and lack the provisions to do so.

JC 2K3

K4t wrote: »

I lol'ed. Maybe in theory, but in reality it's nothing more than an over hyped memory test.

That's an entirely different debate and a complete tangent which doesn't serve to validate your point in the slightest. A few extra marks for exhibiting bilingual ability in a series of examinations testing ability in a broad range of subjects being unfair because some people lack the ability to do so? Really?

jdivision

dlofnep wrote: »

And what has that to do with me considering I started up a conversational group in my city for that exact purpose - allowing for people with all levels of Irish to get together and learn from each other?

you're funny. you personalise when it suits and generalise when it suits.

Wibbs

dlofnep wrote: »

Terrible logic.

Not really.

They don't because they can't. They can't because the curriculum is flawed, and because there are either no provisions to learn it outside of school, or because it's costly to do so.

There are more than a few examples where languages were kept alive and flourished where the obstacles were far greater including threats to personal safety. So I call BS on that, unless the irish are naturally apathetic or weak, neither of which is anywhere close to my take on us.

While some genuinely don't want to learn it, if I could count the amount of times I met people who told me that they would love to learn the language, I'd be a rich man. Almost everyone in our local comments on the language anytime they hear me speak it, often joining in with the cúpla focal they have.

Talk is cheap and that's the point. There are enough resources around that someone could learn the language if they so chose. We are not living in a third world dictatorship where Irish is outlawed. There are courses all over the place. The facilities are there, the resources are there. Every major college has an Irish faculty, there are apparently lots of people like yourself who wish to support and promote the language, yet how many of those same people in the pub question you further about actually putting their money where their cupla focal is/are. You say that its costly to do so? Yet many many more men and women pay for gym membership that they barely use than sign up to Irish courses. People spend fortunes on other things. a plasma TV would pay for enough Irish courses, yet Irish is apparently failing due to lack of provisions and personal finance? More government money is spent on the promotion of the language than simple fitness, yet there are more gym goers than Irish speakers or people willing to learn it. Give me an ever loving break.

You're entrenched in your opinion and that's about the bones of it.

As are you and I suspect even moreso than me. The 32 county Ireland bit speaks volumes. To me at least.

You can't accept the reality that people are genuinely interested in the language, a large mass of people - but just like any other adult, find it next to impossible to learn and lack the provisions to do so.

Where were the provisions for the latvians, or basques or flemish or polish or any number of other nations and peoples that chose to keep their language alive and vital, without propping up by government coffers? How long do you think Irish would last if all government support was removed? How long would TG4 last without the 20 odd millions per year, how long the Gaeltacht? How long the Irish schools? No time at all if the people didn't want it. Very long if they did, so pardon me if I don't regard those you bump into in life and in pubs as giving you anything more than lip service. A lip service that is part and parcel of my original point, practically useless.

dlofnep

jdivision wrote: »

you're funny. you personalise when it suits and generalise when it suits.

I personalised because you questioned me on a personal level. What has that to do with anything? You stated that there was an element of snobbery, I stated and showed otherwise.

conchubhar1

Stephen wrote: »

So did I. Damn recession, dey took ar fonzies.

ár bhfonzies!!!!!!!

conchubhar1

Grimes wrote: »

Well if they tried to appeal to the English speakers of the world to buy their Irish product then they might stay in business.

they could call it the source and use english and maybe attack the hip hop magazine of similar name
ach beidh fadhb acu tar eis sin

ah bilingual puns

conchubhar1

Delta Kilo wrote: »

It is time we stopped flogging this dead horse!

that has been the statement by people for a good 1000 years
and very strong for the past 200 years

yet it is still here..........

conchubhar1

Grimes wrote: »

My personal experience with Irish speakers in UCD is that it is a very elitist preoccupation which has sadly done more damage to it for me than years of poor standard Dublin schooling. I would be more than happy to see the language decline to the remit of academics.

I agree that TG4 does have some very good historical programs but afaik are not the majority of these independent sound & vision productions? I may be wrong on that however.

edit: Ive also been told when asking about why people speak irish and are very miltant about its preservation is that alot of it harks back to anti-British sentiment despite having very limited knoweldge of irish history.

bull**** - the irish language in ucd couldnt be more opening to everybody

the speed dating and the peilfield were open to everyone and only asked you try to use irish......


nice generilisation on the anti british thing

Nothing pisses me off more than people who think that Pro Irish language = anti British(english), they don't

Language is one thing, culture is another and politics is another matter altogether!!!

conchubhar1

An Fear Aniar wrote: »

It's not just Foinse, most Irish language organs make no pretence at journalism and are particularly biased against Israel. Beo.ie regularly publishes rabid anti-Israeli propaganda that bears no resemblance to journalism, like this rant here:

http://www.beo.ie/?page=ar_na_saolta_seo&content_id=880

I wouldn't buy it, whatever language it's printed in, it's in the same class as the Socialist Worker.

.

if you are a rational thinker, and not jewish, you would be appalled at what israel has done and doing......

dlofnep

Deleted User wrote: »

Nothing pisses me off more than people who think that Pro Irish language = anti British(english), they don't

Language is one thing, culture is another and politics is another matter altogether!!!

Yup.

While I am Republican myself (not anti-english), I keep politics entirely out of our conversational group to allow for anyone who likes it to just come along and have fun.

conchubhar1

the best thing to add to that is try not discussing irish - besides questions on grammar and words obviously

i mean discussing the fate of the irish language is discussed too much while using irish

Powerhouse

Wibbs wrote: »

1) Elton John and premier league footballists and such. Figures do not always indicate numbers.

2) Sorry ted/tedess, ease off the oul ego there, I was referring to the general "we" not you and me. In any case, in the words of blackadder, "no speako dago", so even if your point scoring had merit, it would be lost on me, a fellow Irish person who doesn't understand you.

1) These are words not figures. I asked you to indicate where I used figures. You appear to be having some difficulty even with English at this stage.

2) You always know lads are grasping when they start quoting the telly! You are the one that said a language is no bother to communicate in as opposed to song-writing or playing football at a very high level - I have argued otherwise - that it takes time/dedication/opportunity (which is why I have been saying it is being - deliberately - unrealistic to expect all supporters of the language to achieve proficiency). Yet, when it is put to you you cannot communicate in the language, so perhaps you'd leave that piece of empty rhetoric to one side from now on? You have proved my point for me, we don't need to labour it any more.

I can't comment in any great sense on the general 'we' as it's so bloody vague but I would direct you to my earlier comments on apathy. (In fact if you read my posts with a little attention rather than getting a rush of blood and constructing a reply without reading them properly you would hardly need to reply at all as all of this has been covered already)

I meet many many people who can communicate comfortably in Irish. I know many people I have never spoken to in any other language. I also know English, Australian, American, Scottish, Dutch and Spanish people who are fluent Irish speakers. It is inappropriate for you to generalise in that sense because you clearly have no experience in the area and all of this goes out completely under your radar which is why you are using such sweeping unsubstantiated generalisations.

That said, the reasons many people such as yourself cannot communicate in the language is (and I have written this more than once in this thread) - leaving aside those reared speaking it - is that it is not taught as a spoken language in schools. And for that same reason it requires significant time and investment to achieve fluency, or at least that it what I found in my case. You are the ultimate high-stool merchant - you say it's no bother yet you cannot do it yourself.

3) See number 1 please and point out the figures you claim I used.

An Fear Aniar

Nobody's forcing you to learn Irish anyway.... oh, wait....


.

Sir Humphrey

An Fear Aniar wrote: »

Nobody's forcing you to learn Irish anyway.... oh, wait....


.

'Oh wait' what? The rule that you had to pass Irish to pass the Leaving Cert was removed in about 1973 or 1974. I had people in my Leaving Cert (1980s) class who didn't sit Irish. Yes, not doing so probably shut off potential avenues to them (though this is a slighly irrelevant point since they were brutal academically in the first place) but at the end of the day nobody really gave a sh*t that they weren't doing it. That was their problem. Force didn't enter into it.