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Foinse goes out of business

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    #62
    Riamfada
    Registered Users Posts: 10,246 ✭✭✭✭Riamfada


    Dflonep, what part of the country are you from if you dont mind me asking?


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    #63
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Waterford, why's that?


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    #64
    Mars Bar
    Registered Users Posts: 31,827 ✭✭✭✭Mars Bar


    I thought Foinse was some made - up magazine they used in the LC Irish papers...

    I have never even the seen the magazine so maybe their advertising strategy wasn't quite up to standard?!


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    #65
    Rosita
    Registered Users Posts: 3,927 ✭✭✭Rosita


    big b wrote: »
    They had 10 full time journalists?

    The paper rarely had 10 pages.

    sorry, but not entirely surprised, to see it go.



    This is understating things somewhat. It had 40 pages every week with remarkably little advertising. Clearly you never read the paper.


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    #66
    jdivision
    Registered Users Posts: 4,260 ✭✭✭jdivision


    TheZohan wrote: »
    Like this one?

    :D:D I was thinking more like this:

    http://www.tribune.ie/article/2009/mar/08/231k-grant-for-tiny-irish-language-magazine/?q=Irish%20magazine


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    #67
    jdivision
    Registered Users Posts: 4,260 ✭✭✭jdivision


    dlofnep wrote: »
    But yet I converse as Gaeilge to everyone I know who went to a Gaelscoil or studied Irish through other means. They always speak in Irish to me.

    .

    That's part of the snobbery, it's a self-proclaimed inner circle elite, no part-timers need apply as this article says (about halfway down), which to me nicely sums up the attitude:
    http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2008/03/09/story30988.asp
    The author had a gold Fainne, I once had a silver one but I don't speak in Irish at all anymore. On a number of visits to the Gaeltacht areas, particularly in Galway, it was made clear by the locals that I wasn't worth talking to in Irish. I'd say something in Irish, they'd reply in English. A local would say something in Irish, the same person would reply in Irish.


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    #68
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    jdivision wrote: »
    That's part of the snobbery, it's a self-proclaimed inner circle elite,

    So it's snobbery to speak in another language? What? Where did you get the logic for that one?


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    #69
    Rosita
    Registered Users Posts: 3,927 ✭✭✭Rosita


    Grimes wrote: »

    1) Yes but as an archaeologist may I point out that our cultural heritage is not shared by a large degree of our population and our modern cultural identity is even far less "traditional" irish. The "irish" heritage is that of white , middle class, suburban peoples . It strikes me the ignorance of almost all of my irish speaking friends (who speak irish on a daily basis irregardless of the presence of non-irish speakers) of any knoweldge of irish history or heritage other than the events on 1916 and the fact that Newgrage does something with the Sun. Of course im generalising from my own experience.

    2) My personal experience with Irish speakers in UCD is that it is a very elitist preoccupation which has sadly done more damage to it for me than years of poor standard Dublin schooling. I would be more than happy to see the language decline to the remit of academics.

    3) edit: Ive also been told when asking about why people speak irish and are very miltant about its preservation is that alot of it harks back to anti-British sentiment despite having very limited knoweldge of irish history.



    1) I don't see why you need to offer that view "as an archeologist". A plain civilian could proffer the same view and it wouldn't stop it being claptrap anyway. Ireland has until the last few years been an almost exclusively white population so that's a meaningless categorisation.

    'Middle class'? - the Irish language has traditionally been disregarded by the middle class as something associated with poverty and misery so that's a laugh.

    'Suburban' people? Again Ireland's cultural heritage has generally been ignored/despised by surburban types and regarded as 'rural'.

    2) Like any language there is an inevitable default categorisation of 'elite' which is those who can speak the language. I studied Irish in UCD and never noticed any elitism and I had native speakers, English people, quite a variety generally in the class.

    3) While what you wrote here is at best wincingly cliched and at worst beneath contempt there is, however, evidence in what you are writing of some reverse snobbery. You seem to be pinning a lot of weight on historical interest and knowledge, presumably because it is an area you have studied. You also seem to be trying to argue that unless you have the time and inclination to cover all aspects of what might be described as cultural heritage (again the areas you have studied) that it is not legitimate to cover one which is a quite bizarre view.

    Does it also annoy you that so many English speakers all around us would have little enough knowledge of the Anglo-Saxon period, Danelaw or the Battle of Brunanburh? And if not, why do you expect Irish speakers to cover all aspects of their heritage and history?


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    #70
    Acid_Violet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,295 ✭✭✭Acid_Violet


    Grimes wrote: »
    In conclusion I will certainly be sending my children to an Irish school as Irish speakers recieve excellent extra assistance in academics and schooling in terms on financial aid and grades. Personally for me, Ill stick to my Anglo-Irish heritage :D

    I went to a Gaelscoil very well known for high grades and successful students. Students in my school get high grades because they have a strong work ethic and because the teachers are very motivated. As much as high-fee grind schools would claim otherwise, money doesn't buy results, hard work does.

    I agree that the amount of financial aid that Gaelscoils get is wrong. I went through the capitation numbers with my Principal for a debate and schools from disadvantaged areas should definitely get more funding than the Gaelscoileanna (this currently isn't the case.)

    A lot of people are resentful about the fact that we get a minute percentage of our grade increased because we do the exams in Irish.

    http://examinations.ie/index.php?l=en&mc=ca&sc=im

    However this minute addition is completely justified. For foreign languages the listening and reading comprehensions are written as intended to be answered in English, so it's easier to translate the German answer into English that into Irish, for example. Also, trying to learn off science and business terms in Irish is not easy.


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    #71
    Acid_Violet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,295 ✭✭✭Acid_Violet


    jdivision wrote: »
    That's part of the snobbery, it's a self-proclaimed inner circle elite, no part-timers need apply as this article says (about halfway down), which to me nicely sums up the attitude:
    http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2008/03/09/story30988.asp
    The author had a gold Fainne, I once had a silver one but I don't speak in Irish at all anymore. On a number of visits to the Gaeltacht areas, particularly in Galway, it was made clear by the locals that I wasn't worth talking to in Irish. I'd say something in Irish, they'd reply in English. A local would say something in Irish, the same person would reply in Irish.

    I agree about that regarding people from the Gaeltachts, no idea why exactly they wouldn't speak back in Irish. But it's completely different with people outside of there, from my personal experience, people from Gaelscoileanna are always accommodating in that sense imho.


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    #72
    me_right_one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,043 ✭✭✭me_right_one


    Delta Kilo wrote: »
    Eh no. TG4 is not successful. Last year they were forced into revealing their accounts by TV3 who sued them in the EU courts. It revealed that they took in €25m in grants from the government and made, under their own steam, the massive sum of €3m. So that is essentially a loss of €22m.

    Now if that is what you call care and nurturing then maybe your argument holds water, however I would disagree. To hell with the Irish Language, there is only 10,000 speaking it...it is costing a fortune, everything has to be translated, official documents, luas announcements, train announcements, bus notices... It is a waste.

    It is time we stopped flogging this dead horse!

    Agreed. We should all speak Irish and then all that wastage would stop!


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    #73
    Riamfada
    Registered Users Posts: 10,246 ✭✭✭✭Riamfada


    Rosita wrote: »
    1) I don't see why you need to offer that view "as an archeologist". A plain civilian could proffer the same view and it wouldn't stop it being claptrap anyway. Ireland has until the last few years been an almost exclusively white population so that's a meaningless categorisation.

    'Middle class'? - the Irish language has traditionally been disregarded by the middle class as something associated with poverty and misery so that's a laugh.

    'Suburban' people? Again Ireland's cultural heritage has generally been ignored/despised by surburban types and regarded as 'rural'.

    2) Like any language there is an inevitable default categorisation of 'elite' which is those who can speak the language. I studied Irish in UCD and never noticed any elitism and I had native speakers, English people, quite a variety generally in the class.

    3) While what you wrote here is at best wincingly cliched and at worst beneath contempt there is, however, evidence in what you are writing of some reverse snobbery. You seem to be pinning a lot of weight on historical interest and knowledge, presumably because it is an area you have studied. You also seem to be trying to argue that unless you have the time and inclination to cover all aspects of what might be described as cultural heritage (again the areas you have studied) that it is not legitimate to cover one which is a quite bizarre view.

    Does it also annoy you that so many English speakers all around us would have little enough knowledge of the Anglo-Saxon period, Danelaw or the Battle of Brunanburh? And if not, why do you expect Irish speakers to cover all aspects of their heritage and history?

    Perhaps you didnt read my subsequent posts


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    #74
    Powerhouse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,428 ✭✭✭Powerhouse


    An Fear Aniar wrote: »

    If they had stopped forcing it on people in schools it might have had some chance, but they fúcked it up completely by doing that.



    Absolute nonsense. It might have perpetuated a more negative attitude among those pre-disposed to be negative towards it anyway, but the notion that if the subject was optional lazy little w*nkers in schools who resent having to learn anything that remotely resembles work would suddelnly morph into Liam Ó Murchú is risible.

    Latin was diluted massively in schools over the past 30 years and there is no evidence of an upsurge in interest in pursuing the subject.


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    #75
    sceptre
    Registered Users Posts: 19,608 ✭✭✭✭sceptre


    Rosita wrote: »
    with remarkably little advertising.
    I realise I'm coming at this from a different perspective to the guy you quoted in your last reply but no paper can survive unless they can pay the bulk of their costs and salaries through advertising. Any paper with remarkably little advertising is either going to close or is getting funded by someone who doesn't care how much money it's going to lose.


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    #76
    me_right_one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,043 ✭✭✭me_right_one


    I cant wait until the day a discussion similar to this is being held as Gaeilge, talking about whether english should be thought in schools or not. Ideally my country would also be re-united at that stage.

    The sad reality is though, it took an awful lot of brutality and suffering to force our language from us, and its going to take a lot of struggling to reinstate it


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    #77
    Rosita
    Registered Users Posts: 3,927 ✭✭✭Rosita


    sceptre wrote: »
    I realise I'm coming at this from a different perspective to the guy you quoted in your last reply but no paper can survive unless they can pay the bulk of their costs and salaries through advertising. Any paper with remarkably little advertising is either going to close or is getting funded by someone who doesn't care how much money it's going to lose.


    I mentioned the amount of advertising only because I expected it would an obvious riposte to my comment that it was a 40 page and not a 10 page newspaper as someone claimed.

    But to answer your point - you are using a rather blunt instrument there to make that judgement. It all depends on the business model of the newspaper/magazine. Some journals have lower cover price and high (but low-priced) advertising content. Others have a higher cover price and low (but high cost) advertising with plenty of subliminal advertising (The Irish Times with its supplements purporting to be 'news' content jumps to mind). Other newspapers are full of ads and are free, with their essential business being survival and providing a living for the owner rather than providing news per se.

    In Foinse's case - as I understand it - their business model was to carry small amounts of Irish language promotional advertising, charge a cover price and receive funding from Foras na Gaeilge. The question of them having to "pay the bulk of their costs and salaries through advertising" didn't arise ever. It was a subsidised newspaper because it was seen to be promoting the language and as such was underwritten to a large extent by the body charged with promoting the Irish Language.

    So this was not a case of a newspaper having escalating costs and an inappropriate business model which was inevitably found out. The only variable here was that Foras na Gaeilge reduced its funding rendering the paper unviable unless it went down the road of taking advertising at all costs and chopping editorial content to reduce costs, and what would be the point of that even if it actually worked at all?

    So your general proposition is fair enough in the abstract but is inappropriate in the case of Foinse.


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    #78
    scop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 687 ✭✭✭scop


    me_right_one wrote: »

    The sad reality is though, it took an awful lot of brutality and suffering to force our language from us, and its going to take a lot of struggling to reinstate it

    That is a half-truth. We didn't need an awful amount of brutality to drop the language. Economic forces dictated the fate of Irish. From a Darwinian perspective we committed linguistic suicide in order that the kids might have a decent life.


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    #79
    Rosita
    Registered Users Posts: 3,927 ✭✭✭Rosita


    scop wrote: »
    That is a half-truth. We didn't need an awful amount of brutality to drop the language. Economic forces dictated the fate of Irish. From a Darwinian perspective we committed linguistic suicide in order that the kids might have a decent life.



    In fairness, you own version is at best a half-truth too. The banning of Irish from national schools was a massively significant factor in the decline of the language. Promotion of English as a means of preparing emigrants is over-stated. It's not like there was a choice to teach Irish in the schools.

    No other European country ever decided to give up its language so that "the kids might have a decent life". The ability to have a decent life was never umbilically connected to speaking a particular language. We had a century and a half of widespread poverty in this country after the language was banned in schools, while other countries which held onto their own language prospered. That is not to say that they prospered because they held onto their own langauge but that it wasn't a factor at all.

    There is no law against being bi-lingual (at least not any more now that the English have bailed out of here). Only the ahistorical Irish appear to believe that there is. I meet lots of Spanish, French, Germans, Scandanavians and Eastern Europeans who can speak English as well as their own language. I even know English, Spanish and Dutch who are fluent Irish speakers. It is extremely rare I meet an Irish person who could even vaguely or basically converse in French or German - though they tend not to have the same hang-ups as with Irish - despite doing them in school. It's not just the Irish language is the issue with the Irish people.

    The idea that the Irish gave up the language so that some emigrant utopia could be reached doesn't stack up. It was a case of the English jackboot meeting a willing conspirator in the natural Irish apathy and laziness. The excuses came later.


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    #80
    scop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 687 ✭✭✭scop


    Rosita wrote: »
    In fairness, you own version is at best a half-truth too. The banning of Irish from national schools was a massively significant factor in the decline of the language. Promotion of English as a means of preparing emigrants is over-stated. It's not like there was a choice to teach Irish in the schools.

    Well this is what I meant by half-truth. Sure Irish was suppressed, one half, and the factors I outlined are the other.
    No other European country ever decided to give up its language so that "the kids might have a decent life". The ability to have a decent life was never umbilically connected to speaking a particular language.

    No other European country was a British colony either, and none of them were as poverty ridden as our little isle.
    I meet lots of Spanish, French, Germans, Scandanavians and Eastern Europeans who can speak English as well as their own language. I even know English, Spanish and Dutch who are fluent Irish speakers. It is extremely rare I meet an Irish person who could even vaguely or basically converse in French or German - though they tend not to have the same hang-ups as with Irish - despite doing them in school. It's not just the Irish language is the issue with the Irish people.

    I totally agree and as an aspiring polyglot (and German speaker) I do not believe the myth that Irish is too hard and so on. We could easily model our system on the Dutch or Swedish language method and every little Sean, Paddy, and Mick will have Irish to C1 level by age 8 or so. For some weird reason nobody will tackle this issue. I should note that my own reason for not learning Irish is that there are too many others on my list.
    The idea that the Irish gave up the language so that some emigrant utopia could be reached doesn't stack up. It was a case of the English jackboot meeting a willing conspirator in the natural Irish apathy and laziness. The excuses came later.

    No argument from me here. I was just attempting to add the economic element to the many spices in the mix.


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    #81
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    scop wrote: »
    We could easily model our system on the Dutch or Swedish language method and every little Sean, Paddy, and Mick will have Irish to C1 level by age 8 or so. For some weird reason nobody will tackle this issue. I should note that my own reason for not learning Irish is that there are too many others on my list.

    Do you have any reading material on their methods? I'd be interested in reading.


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    #82
    scop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 687 ✭✭✭scop


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Do you have any reading material on their methods? I'd be interested in reading.

    I'll see if I can track the books down. I read about the Dutch/Scandinavian education models as an undergraduate.

    It is worth noting that almost all the decent language programs come from abroad...Assimil, Pimsleur, Michel Thomas. You could probably learn more French with a basic Michel Thomas in 3 months than 6 years in an Irish secondary school. :D


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    #83
    Rosita
    Registered Users Posts: 3,927 ✭✭✭Rosita


    scop wrote: »

    No other European country was a British colony either, and none of them were as poverty ridden as our little isle.


    No, but many were colonies of somewhere. Poland did not exist as a nation between 1795 and 1918 and yet it retained its own language. All the countries of the old Soviet Union retained their own languages. No Pole ever appears to have felt it was a good idea to change the national tongue to German or Russian for economic benefit.

    As for poverty...........plenty of European countries have been as poor and poorer than us.


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    #84
    An Fear Aniar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,377 ✭✭✭An Fear Aniar


    Powerhouse wrote: »
    Absolute nonsense. It might have perpetuated a more negative attitude among those pre-disposed to be negative towards it anyway, but the notion that if the subject was optional lazy little w*nkers in schools who resent having to learn anything that remotely resembles work would suddelnly morph into Liam Ó Murchú is risible.

    The results speak for themselves - what language are we using right now?

    If it was left alone, those who are genuinely interested could learn it and form real language communities - not the cúpla focal at the beginning of a speech.

    .


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    #85
    An Fear Aniar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,377 ✭✭✭An Fear Aniar


    me_right_one wrote: »
    I cant wait until the day a discussion similar to this is being held as Gaeilge, talking about whether english should be thought in schools or not. Ideally my country would also be re-united at that stage.

    The very reason why we're not is because it's being taught as a school subject. It needs to be taken out of schools completely. Seems counter-intuitive but it's the only way it could ever blossom again.

    .


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    #86
    PrivateEye
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,283 ✭✭✭PrivateEye


    Always thought Foinse was a quality newspaper to be honest, its coverage of Shell to Sea in particular was far ahead of the mainstream media. The only thing it was guilty of was sometimes straying too much into "community news" (Photos from the launch of Mick Pat O' Spuds new book in the Ardsomewhere GAA Hall stuff) as opposed to aiming to become a popular Irish language presentation of national news.


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    #87
    An Fear Aniar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,377 ✭✭✭An Fear Aniar


    PrivateEye wrote: »
    Always thought Foinse was a quality newspaper to be honest, its coverage of Shell to Sea in particular was far ahead of the mainstream media. The only thing it was guilty of was sometimes straying too much into "community news" (Photos from the launch of Mick Pat O' Spuds new book in the Ardsomewhere GAA Hall stuff) as opposed to aiming to become a popular Irish language presentation of national news.

    It's not just Foinse, most Irish language organs make no pretence at journalism and are particularly biased against Israel. Beo.ie regularly publishes rabid anti-Israeli propaganda that bears no resemblance to journalism, like this rant here:

    http://www.beo.ie/?page=ar_na_saolta_seo&content_id=880

    I wouldn't buy it, whatever language it's printed in, it's in the same class as the Socialist Worker.

    .


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    #88
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,112 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    dlofnep wrote: »
    I'm comfortable in knowing that the majority of the people support the language.
    Not worth a tinkers curse if the same majority don't and can't speak it. Lips service and the wrong kind.
    Rosita wrote:
    No, but many were colonies of somewhere. Poland did not exist as a nation between 1795 and 1918 and yet it retained its own language. All the countries of the old Soviet Union retained their own languages. No Pole ever appears to have felt it was a good idea to change the national tongue to German or Russian for economic benefit.
    Agreed and a very good point. The Soviets tried to stamp out the local languages in favour of Russian. Made it compulsory for official business etc. Wall comes down and ten years after that the languages were fine and russian was a distant memory. Similar things happened with Basque in Spain and to a lesser extent France. Why? Because the people felt connected to it and wanted it and it was advantageous to speak it.

    Not the case with Irish. Indeed in some ways the approach to Irish has been a lesser version of what the Soviets tried with Russian(as a culturally forign language, which make it all the more ironic). Make it the official language, make it compulsory in schools, make it compulsory for things like law, or getting into certain colleges(dunno if that's still the case), plough resources at it etc. It hasn't worked. I suspect if the gaelscols that are currently fashionable, were not as well funded, without the sometimes dubious demographic(not a lot of foridners) and the results, then they wouldn't be popular either. People are sending their kids there more for the results and the ethos than the language, beyond some nebulous notions of "irishness" among some. I know a fair few parents and the Irish part comes down the list.

    Regardless of the lip service in polls and the census and regardless of ones view of the value of the language, if the majority actually supported the language then the majority would actually speak it. They don't. Simple as that. So for me the polls mean nothing as it's not the objective truth of the state of the language. So we have an official language as far as the EU and constitution claims, yet 80% can't speak it even close to fluently. As often quoted, more people in this land probably speak Polish as a first language, yet it would be objectively daft to suggest it as an official language of the country.

    If the language is meant to survive as a form of communication it will, if the people want it and chose to use it. If not it won't and throwing money or not at it, will have little enough effect either way IMHO.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #89
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Not worth a tinkers curse if the same majority don't and can't speak it. Lips service and the wrong kind.

    The don't is the result of the can't, which is a direct result of an abysmal academic program. It doesn't change the fact that the majority of the people would be upset to see the Irish language removed from our education.


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    #90
    Powerhouse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,428 ✭✭✭Powerhouse


    An Fear Aniar wrote: »
    The results speak for themselves - what language are we using right now?

    If it was left alone, those who are genuinely interested could learn it and form real language communities - not the cúpla focal at the beginning of a speech.


    This doesn't answer anything I wrote. What you wrote was: "If they had stopped forcing it on people in schools it might have had some chance, but they fúcked it up completely by doing that."

    I am saying that the fact that it was compulsory in schools in irrelevant. The idea that children who wouldn't learn it in schools would suddenly develop a massive interest in the subject were it optional is nonsense. They would be delighted that they could do a subject with a lesser workload and that'd be about the size of it.

    Taking the subject out of schools as you suggest would pretty much kill it completely as then you'd have very little university take-up either and expertise in the language would haemorrhage in a few decades.

    The problem for Irish is not that it is taught in schools. How on earth could teaching the language kill it?! The only problem is that schools traditionally have taught people the written language and not the spoken language. It's nothing to do with the school itself or any compulsory element. Stopping teaching it won't work.


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    #91
    Powerhouse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,428 ✭✭✭Powerhouse


    Wibbs wrote: »

    1) People are sending their kids there more for the results and the ethos than the language, beyond some nebulous notions of "irishness" among some. I know a fair few parents and the Irish part comes down the list.

    2) Regardless of the lip service in polls and the census and regardless of ones view of the value of the language, if the majority actually supported the language then the majority would actually speak it. They don't. Simple as that. So for me the polls mean nothing as it's not the objective truth of the state of the language.


    1) Can you explain what the "ethos" of the Gaelscoileanna is?

    2) Presumably polls measure what they are designed to measure? How on earth could a poll purport to give the "objective truth" of the state of anything? By definition polls court opinions - no more no less - the objective state of things doesn't come into it. People may not like the findings of polls but let's not knock them for what they are not.

    It is also unrealistic to suggest that "if the majority actually supported the language then the majority would actually speak it". This implies that you cannot support something unless you are proficient at it.

    A rugby supporter who has not played in the All-Ireland League is not a real supporter and their view must be disregarded? A soccer supporter who has not played League of Ireland at least is not entitled to nominate themselves as a supporter? If you don't tinkle the ivories with some expertise yourself you cannot call yourself a fan of Elton John?

    If you are not a regular in the National Library, the National Gallery or National Museum, is it not permissible to nominate yourself as a supporter of the concept? This is a wacky idea you are putting forward.

    I am a fluent Irish speaker but I studied it for three years at university and spent many a day in the Gaeltacht. I was encouraged along the way in doing so by parents who could not speak Irish themselves and I would profoundly resent any suggestion that they could not call themselves supporters of the language.

    I can assume only that you are trying to put the bar too high for people so that you can dismiss support for the language as not really counting.


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