Why don't men approach women?

Eve_Dublin

O'Coonassa wrote: »

lol, oh we notice alright don't think for one second we don't. Even when we were children that's how the girls were. That's also one of the reasons why we didn't like them and put worms in their hair

You only see half of it, buddy...believe me!!:eek:

LegacyUser

Wibbs wrote: »

Men may feel emotions and express them, indeed they would not be secure men if they didn't, but what they were trying to say was that men should understand what emotions matter and what emotions should count and what emotions should not be worth a second thought. They were calling you on the latter. Women are very good judges of that and what they were trying to say is that two random lassies in a queue who are being rude are not worthy of that level of emotion from you as a man.

If I'm trying to enjoy my night and this girl says something to the effect of;
"You're a loser, I'm actually insulted that a guy like you could think he has a chance", yes it would get to me. I'd brush it off and pretend i don't care, but deep down a small chip has been taken off my pride. You can't just tell someone not to care about something, however much they'd like to.

This girl was obviously insecure herself, or she wouldn't have felt the need to do what she did.If a guy in a club pointed at her and started saying to his friend "awwwww, look at that minger, you should try her, she's more your standard hahahahaha" would it not be reasonable to expect her to be hurt a little by it?

Yes you can say; people should be able to deal with it, it's only an randomer in a club, it means nothing. In an ideal world we'd all be super secure and no-one would ever get insulted by anything, ever. But we don't live in an ideal world. Most people are (to varying degrees) somewhat insecure. We all have egos, this is normal. We shouldn't go around saying what we like about people and expect them not to care (even though maybe they shouldn't). The same way we shouldn't go around monitoring ourselves to make sure we don't offend super sensitive people. There's a balance, and deliberately saying insults to someone's face is obviously over the line.

It may be the 21st century, but men and women instinctively know that under the surface it's an older century or centuries at play. We may claim to have equality and in in general life we arguably are approaching that(well some way to go but...), but in the reproductive/mating/dating arena, those old primeval instincts hold more sway than either gender admit to for the most part. Yes there are men and women that exist and thrive outside it, but the majority don't. As I said before, I prefer to go with the flow than against it.

No. The whole chatting up girls thing is a horribly formal and contrived affair. Originally humans would have simply become better and better friends with a member of the opposite sex and eventually fallen in love. It would only progress at the rate each person wanted it to progress at. At no point would it be obvious that one person is interested sexually in another unless they had gotten to a stage where they both so close, it was obvious.

Eve_Dublin

Unregistered wrote: »

If I'm trying to enjoy my night and this girl says something to the effect of;
"You're a loser, I'm actually insulted that a guy like you could think he has a chance", yes it would get to me. I'd brush it off and pretend i don't care, but deep down a small chip has been taken off my pride. You can't just tell someone not to care about something, however much they'd like to.

This girl was obviously insecure herself, or she wouldn't have felt the need to do what she did.If a guy in a club pointed at her and started saying to his friend "awwwww, look at that minger, you should try her, she's more your standard hahahahaha" would it not be reasonable to expect her to be hurt a little by it?

Yes you can say; people should be able to deal with it, it's only an randomer in a club, it means nothing. In an ideal world we'd all be super secure and no-one would ever get insulted by anything, ever. But we don't live in an ideal world. Most people are (to varying degrees) somewhat insecure. We all have egos, this is normal. We shouldn't go around saying what we like about people and expect them not to care (even though maybe they shouldn't). The same way we shouldn't go around monitoring ourselves to make sure we don't offend super sensitive people. There's a balance, and deliberately saying insults to someone's face is obviously over the line.

I know this has been said before but really, I'd like to know where the men who have these types of experiences are drinking/clubbing. Anywhere I go there's never that kind of vibe. As Wibbs said, maybe it has something to do with age. I could have been a little b***h when I was in my teens sometimes but I coped the hell on in my 20s (I'm 29). Is it the younger man's approach that provokes this reaction? I just wouldn't have that kind of bite in me anymore and most men, in fact ALL men that do approach me are perfectly respectful and I to them, even if they're talking pure, drunken crap sometimes (I just laugh it off most of the time...you have to have a sense of humour about it). The only time I ever remember having a go at a man was when one grabbed my bum and one of my booobs and I punched him in the face.:mad: This didn't happen in Ireland, by the way. I don't think an Irish man would get away with that over here.

Actually, I found men in other countries were sometimes much more physical in their come-ons (it was harassment) and wouldn't take no for an answer...it was then and then only that I had to tell them to f-off repeatedly. Even if it wasn't physical, it got to the point where they wouldn't leave me alone, as if I'd give in after they wore me down all night and I had to make a stand (to put it mildly). Perhaps that's why some foreign women like the Irish males' approach in comparison to the men in their own countries. Who knows.

Anyway, I digress, my point is that maybe you shouldn't go to the places you're going to and try somewhere new where the women aren't so full of themselves...plenty of places around the country in my experience. If you go to the same kind of places, you're going to meet the same kinds of people so mix it up a bit.

DarkJager

Just reading through this thread and its all so true. I'm sorry if you don't agree with what is being said here Eve Dublin, but are you not starting to see a pattern of something emerging here? That perhaps Irish women aren't so liked or adored by Irish men, simply down to the attitude of the majority of them? As for the foreign women thing; from personal experience numerous times I can tell you they are SO much better, in terms of the maturity to speak like a normal human when approached in a pub or club, and the fact that they haven't bought into this whole "mini beyonce" mindset that seems to be so prevailent in Irish women ("I'm too good for you" etc).

I'll give you a comparison. Last year in May I was due to fly to Southampton for a weekend break with my brother. The night before I left Ireland, I was in a pub minding my own business and simply waiting for my pint at the bar. This makeup caked, glowing orange buffoon of a woman pushed in beside me. I simply threw a glance to see who this ignorant bitch was, and she says "Not tonight buddy" before rolling her eyes to heaven. Feeling insulted by this random encounter with a cretin, I simply replied to her "Not any night of the week honey, not even in your dreams". The incident erked me enough that I simply finished my pint and left. Why waste money in a pub trying to relax, just to be insulted by wannabe beyonces?

The next night, I was in Southampton and naturally decided to hit the pubs to see what its like. Within 10 minutes of coming in the door, a group of 3 girls approached our table, asked our names and where we were from, and shockingly asked if any of us would like a drink? To the men reading this, when have you ever encountered this in Ireland? To say I was shocked would be an understatement. We chatted for the night without any egos getting in the way, had a great laugh in the process and ended up heading to the club together as one group. It was a fantastic night, which I don't think could ever be repeated here.

Now if the women over there are able to do something as simple as asking a man if he'd like a drink and being FRIENDLY, why do you think Irish women haven't copped it? Is it a false belief that they are all model-esque in their appearance, too good for any man to approach them? Is it their friends which manipulate them into delivering insults and put downs to well meaning men, simply to show off their "girl power"? Or is it some twisted perspective, that if they ignore and put down any man who shows the slightest bit of interest, that some chisselled love god is eventually going to come along and sweep them off their feet?

I've personally given up on Irish women, there's only so many times you can put up with this sort of immature and frankly cretinous attitude before you decide "enough is enough". I understand there are good among the bad, but that means picking through the **** to find the diamond, which isn't worth the time in this country. And when there are so many foreign women coming in to the country, that act and behave like emotionally mature women instead of spoilt brats, why would you bother?

AARRRGH

I'll defend the women for a bit.

I'll talk to anyone, so if I'm out in the pub I'll normally make conversation with whoever is near me. It's been years since anyone was rude to me in a pub.

Maybe, just maybe, this is because the first thing I'll say to the person is a compliment. It'll be sincere - I'll find something about them I like and tell them I like it. They always smile and say thanks and are generally open for a chat.

I don't know if this is because I'm older (31) and don't have a desperate look in my eye, or if it's because I'm saying the right thing. Perhaps it's the bars I go to now? Anseo, Sin e, Dice... these would be nice bars with nice people. Maybe if I went to Boomerangs I'd be told to **** off!

Wagon

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

I know this has been said before but really, I'd like to know where the men who have these types of experiences are drinking/clubbing.

Clubs. very common in ****holes like Krystal, Break For The Border, Q bar etc... I hate those places for that reason. And the music is complete tripe :pac:

Anywhere I go there's never that kind of vibe. As Wibbs said, maybe it has something to do with age. I could have been a little b***h when I was in my teens sometimes but I coped the hell on in my 20s (I'm 29).

Well then if i met you on a night out you'd probably be sound. I've found that older women, or older people in general, are just sounder. Maybe it's girls in their early 20s. But I'm only 22 and i still know how to be polite to people. I learned basic manners years ago, why should it go out the window just because someone is in a club/pub?

Is it the younger man's approach that provokes this reaction?

Probably. I've seen lads act like complete muppets around a bit of flesh. but not everyone is like that so why get the same reaction?

Actually, I found men in other countries were sometimes much more physical in their come-ons (it was harassment) and wouldn't take no for an answer...it was then and then only that I had to tell them to f-off repeatedly. Even if it wasn't physical, it got to the point where they wouldn't leave me alone, as if I'd give in after they wore me down all night and I had to make a stand (to put it mildly). Perhaps that's why some foreign women like the Irish males' approach in comparison to the men in their own countries. Who knows.

Yes. My girlfriend said that to me about the lads in her country and that they either hadn't a clue or were complete perverts. This is Italy by the way. and ive seen some of the ponciest looking men walking about the place so i reckon that the undignified drunken smily irish man cracking ****e jokes is a more welcome sight. At least we look like men.

Anyway, I digress, my point is that maybe you shouldn't go to the places you're going to and try somewhere new where the women aren't so full of themselves...plenty of places around the country in my experience. If you go to the same kind of places, you're going to meet the same kinds of people so mix it up a bit.

Yeah i agree with this too. I had some nice pubs to frequent where everyone was sound, even the bouncers. clubs are the places to get bitchy behavour the most. but look at DarkJager's post. The same thing happened to me and my mates in a club in Poland. I've never even heard that happen over in Ireland.

Eve_Dublin

DarkJager wrote: »

Just reading through this thread and its all so true. I'm sorry if you don't agree with what is being said here Eve Dublin, but are you not starting to see a pattern of something emerging here? That perhaps Irish women aren't so liked or adored by Irish men, simply down to the attitude of the majority of them? As for the foreign women thing; from personal experience numerous times I can tell you they are SO much better, in terms of the maturity to speak like a normal human when approached in a pub or club, and the fact that they haven't bought into this whole "mini beyonce" mindset that seems to be so prevailent in Irish women ("I'm too good for you" etc).

I'll give you a comparison. Last year in May I was due to fly to Southampton for a weekend break with my brother. The night before I left Ireland, I was in a pub minding my own business and simply waiting for my pint at the bar. This makeup caked, glowing orange buffoon of a woman pushed in beside me. I simply threw a glance to see who this ignorant bitch was, and she says "Not tonight buddy" before rolling her eyes to heaven. Feeling insulted by this random encounter with a cretin, I simply replied to her "Not any night of the week honey, not even in your dreams". The incident erked me enough that I simply finished my pint and left. Why waste money in a pub trying to relax, just to be insulted by wannabe beyonces?

The next night, I was in Southampton and naturally decided to hit the pubs to see what its like. Within 10 minutes of coming in the door, a group of 3 girls approached our table, asked our names and where we were from, and shockingly asked if any of us would like a drink? To the men reading this, when have you ever encountered this in Ireland? To say I was shocked would be an understatement. We chatted for the night without any egos getting in the way, had a great laugh in the process and ended up heading to the club together as one group. It was a fantastic night, which I don't think could ever be repeated here.

Now if the women over there are able to do something as simple as asking a man if he'd like a drink and being FRIENDLY, why do you think Irish women haven't copped it? Is it a false belief that they are all model-esque in their appearance, too good for any man to approach them? Is it their friends which manipulate them into delivering insults and put downs to well meaning men, simply to show off their "girl power"? Or is it some twisted perspective, that if they ignore and put down any man who shows the slightest bit of interest, that some chisselled love god is eventually going to come along and sweep them off their feet?

I've personally given up on Irish women, there's only so many times you can put up with this sort of immature and frankly cretinous attitude before you decide "enough is enough". I understand there are good among the bad, but that means picking through the **** to find the diamond, which isn't worth the time in this country. And when there are so many foreign women coming in to the country, that act and behave like emotionally mature women instead of spoilt brats, why would you bother?

Once again, a personal experience and I'm sorry for your troubles. An exception to the rule. What do you want me to admit? Because I'm an Irish female that I'm a total b***h by default??? Come on man!! I won't admit that because I'm not and either are my friends, my friend's friends, my work colleagues, most women I come across on a daily basis, Irish women I've met travelling, my sisters, my mother, my female cousins (your sisters, cousins, mother, friends etc.)...I'll hardly take the opinion of a few men on an internet forum as a legitimate sample of Irish males. I know the types of girls you're talking about and unlike you lot, I can spot them a mile off and give them a wide berth at all times...but without sounding arrogant...i've travelled a fair bit and lived outside Ireland for four years and I can tell you now, they're everywhere...EVERYWHERE!

People who travel and choose to leave their country for whatever reason to live in another are generally more open-minded. I came across snooty cows in every country, as I said before, but yes, they were better looking...but maybe it's more forgivable for a hottie to be a cow? How superficial. The Irish, as we've established before, are no oil-paintings...women AND men.

I could stoop to your level and play you at your game and start bad mouthing Irish men but really, I'm not that bitter or stupid to make these type of sweeping generalisations based on one or two experiences.

Ah well, I'm emigrating in 3 months so I'll leave ye to your bitterness........a nation of people who hate eachother. And a bit of bad news for you: those hot foreign women are doing a legger as well. Good luck with that, i'm sure you'll be very happy.

DarkJager

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

Once again, a personal experience and I'm sorry for your troubles. An exception to the rule. What do you want me to admit? Because I'm an Irish female that I'm a total b***h by default??? Come on man!! I won't admit that because I'm not and either are my friends, my friend's friends, my work colleagues, most women I come across on a daily basis, Irish women I've met travelling, my sisters, my mother, my female cousins (your sisters, cousins, mother, friends etc.)...I'll hardly take the opinion of a few men on an internet forum as a legitimate sample of Irish males. I know the types of girls you're talking about and unlike you lot, I can spot them a mile off and give them a wide berth at all times...but without sounding arrogant...i've travelled a fair bit and lived outside Ireland for four years and I can tell you now, they're everywhere...EVERYWHERE!

People who travel and choose to leave their country for whatever reason to live in another are generally more open-minded. I came across snooty cows in every country, as I said before, but yes, they were better looking...but maybe it's more forgivable for a hottie to be a cow? How superficial. The Irish, as we've established before, are no oil-paintings...women AND men.

I could stoop to your level and play you at your game and start bad mouthing Irish men but really, I'm not that bitter or stupid to make these type of sweeping generalisations based on one or two experiences.

Ah well, I'm emigrating in 3 months so I'll leave ye to your bitterness........a nation of people who hate eachother. And a bit of bad news for you: those hot foreign women are doing a legger as well. Good luck with that, i'm sure you'll be very happy.

I'm emmigrating too

Eve_Dublin

DarkJager wrote: »

I'm emmigrating too

Sweet. Good luck with that, man. You'll discover soon enough as I did that diickheaads have no nation.

Wibbs

Unregistered wrote: »

If I'm trying to enjoy my night and this girl says something to the effect of;
"You're a loser, I'm actually insulted that a guy like you could think he has a chance", yes it would get to me. I'd brush it off and pretend i don't care, but deep down a small chip has been taken off my pride. You can't just tell someone not to care about something, however much they'd like to.

I agree it will affect someone to one degree or other. I am just saying don't show it and attach as little importance as it deserves. I look at it this way, when I was a child other kids might say something to me or me to them and it would hurt. The chatter of children doesn't get to me now and I wouldn't insult a child, so I feel the same way about a situation like this. I also consider my pride my own and only mine to injure. Yes, someone may bruise it, but bruises heal and I have found the areas of my psyche that still need work are the easiest to bruise. Again an area that I work on as I have ownership of that too. Some randomer in a pub, no matter who they are just doesn't get me like that. I wasn't always so, but I learned that the insulted gives the insult energy more than the insulter. I just won't give away that power to anyone. Oh sometimes it has been a struggle to do that, but it's struggle worth pursuing.

This girl was obviously insecure herself, or she wouldn't have felt the need to do what she did.

Mostly yes, or she was drunk or her boyfriend left her or she lost her job or she's not copped on or any number of things. None of which have anything to do with you, so why take offence at it?

Yes you can say; people should be able to deal with it, it's only an randomer in a club, it means nothing. In an ideal world we'd all be super secure and no-one would ever get insulted by anything, ever. But we don't live in an ideal world.

I agree. We don't, but I just feel there's little benefit in not fighting that within me.

Most people are (to varying degrees) somewhat insecure. We all have egos, this is normal. We shouldn't go around saying what we like about people and expect them not to care (even though maybe they shouldn't). The same way we shouldn't go around monitoring ourselves to make sure we don't offend super sensitive people. There's a balance, and deliberately saying insults to someone's face is obviously over the line.

+100, there is a balance. Again I feel I should seek that balance within me as I can do bugger all for someone elses or societies. Unless physical danger to me or mine is in play, I ignore it or walk on by. I dunno maybe I'm not explaining myself too well or I'm just mad. The latter is more likely:D

No. The whole chatting up girls thing is a horribly formal and contrived affair. Originally humans would have simply become better and better friends with a member of the opposite sex and eventually fallen in love. It would only progress at the rate each person wanted it to progress at. At no point would it be obvious that one person is interested sexually in another unless they had gotten to a stage where they both so close, it was obvious.

I'm sorry I'm going to have to strenuously disagree with you on this one and call that a very naive view.

In what universe that happens or happened I really don't know. Every single culture has social contrivances to some degree or other around mating and male female relationships. The vast majority far more than our own culture. Originally humans,(if you go by modern hunter gatherer societies) have very contrived and rigidly formal mating rituals. Choice in many of them is left to the families and not the young men and women. Women in many are seen as ironically both powerful spiritually and chattel, socially auctioned off to the highest bidder. In some societies rape of women is very common and not even considered thus, even by the women. Even our closest animal relatives have highly structured mating rituals. There was no halcyon nirvana and there never has been, outside of movie scripts and wishful thinking.

Indeed your example of men and women becoming better and better friends and then becoming sexual has only even had the chance to happen in very recent times, IE our own. Men and women today(and in the last say 100 years in the west) have far more women and men friends or the opportunities to have them, through the desegregation of the sexes(work, school, socially), than pretty much any other time in history. The halcyon days are here more than ever. The average man(or woman) today has far more sexual partners, romantic partners, friends of the opposite sex at 30 than their great grandparents could have comprehended.

I think those who complain about the contrivance of mating habits only complain because they feel left out of it or are not very good at it. That's cool, if you can plough your own furrow, but if you want an easier life it's better to go with the flow or at least see the flow for what it is.

IMHO this mixing of the sexes while a major step forward has also thrown a spanner in the works that came along for the ride. I see men who are so used to being friends with women, that showing romantic/sexual interest in them is a hard step for them to take and they don't even know how to do it. They get it arseways. They seek to be friends first and lovers as a secondary thing, even when they know from the start that's what they want. They then wonder why the women turn them down more often than not. Or they go all badboy which is equally bad, but at least gets more results.

Yes friends to lovers can happen, but it's a helluva lot rarer than many men seem to think(and threads on here back that up almost weekly. It's a rarer thread started by a woman along those lines). When it does happen the woman has usually filed the guy away as a maybe and down the line decides hes a yes. Or there is a break in contact for a while and the woman sees the guy differently when they meet again. Or they're both very young and feeling out their own sexuality. I can think of very very few where it didn't happen that way.

Funny IMHO in general women don't think like that and I also think for all the romantic terms they may couch the process in they are far more practical and logical about the whole thing. They have a "yes I would", or no "I wouldn't", or "maybe I would" from the get go. The last one being the rarer IME. Women and men are pretty much the same as people. They can do much the same as each other in every field of human endeavour. Even so called male things. There are women that are physically stronger than many men etc. But I do believe in the romantic/sexual/dating arena we are quite different. Yes we may want the same outcome, but we go about it differently for the most part. Not getting that IMHO is where many men(and women) go wrong. And this is where we get conflict where none should be.

I see it this way, when I think of the word girlfriend, I see the very word itself as a blueprint for more successful results in the dating game. The word "girl" comes before "friend". Yes your partner should be your friend, no doubt about it, but men should make themselves more clear about treating her like a potential romantic partner and a woman before you make her a friend. I would say most, or at least many more women think like that. They are attracted to the "boy" before the "friend".

Obviously that's my (longwinded) take, but there you have it.

beks101

Generalisations are a dangerous and wasteful thing, and I'm sort of with Eve on this one.

Lots of posts, not just in this thread but in many others and also a particular forum (any guesses...) smack of misogyny, and you'll see that in the multi-thanked 'Irish women are b*****s' threads that crop up again and again.

Incidentally one of my first posts was about how I was sick of being single, sick of the pub/club scene, and automatically to one particular (male) poster this seems to translate to me being a hostile b***h who gave guys the cold shoulder all the while moping into my drink in the corner complaining about my singledom...I mean, how many bad experiences do you have to have to develop this rationale about Irish women?

Nothing justifies the type of nasty, insulting and downright mean behaviour by women described in this thread, but to be honest the last time I remember observing this was when I was nineteen and in Coppers.

I'll chat to anyone when I'm out, male or female, and unless I'm groped or verbally assaulted, any guy who approaches me will get a bit of banter and if I'm not interested, I'll politely end the conversation. I've found all of my girl friends to be the exact same.

LegacyUser

Okay...So far we've established that men don't appreciate to be treated badly, insulted or belittled, especially infront of women, REALLY pisses them off and has a negative on their self confidence and pride. We've also learned that women don't like to be harassed by rude men or inappropriately touched. Also saying they're as a group, generally rude and condesending.

..... So..... in a nut shell we've established both the men and women replying in this thread are ... yes, you've guessed it : HUMAN.!!

So now can we please move on from that?..

Juat wanted to say I'm 21 recently single female and have spent a few years abroad, so my experience is a mix of Irish/foreign men, and I've lost track of sleazy men who think parts of my body are there for their amusement, premission not needed. So I have 2 choices, be bitter : alll men are ****'s.. etc, or be an dorrmat and put up with men like this. And I've decided a lil from option A a lil from option B!

Some men are a complete waste of the water, proteins and lipids they're made of, but then again so are some women. But hey, I've long time to get screwed over/insulted/disappointed by people, and some may even interesting ways to do it. ... so if a man wants a polite/fun/flirty conversation bring it on please.. and if a guy wants to be a **** then hey bring it on, It says more about them and nothing about me!...

anyway.. just my 2 cents

NickNolte

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

Ah well, I'm emigrating in 3 months so I'll leave ye to your bitterness........a nation of people who hate eachother

I thought it was just the Irish men who hated the minunderstood, convivial Irish women?

To answer the OP's question - men don't approach you because they don't want to risk being cruelly shot down. If being treated like a chump wasn't so endemic in Irish culture then you and your friend would probably get a lot more attention. As it stands, maybe you need to do the chatting up instead of sitting there, giving off subtle signals.

Eve_Dublin

NickNolte wrote: »

I thought it was just the Irish men who hated the minunderstood, convivial Irish women?

To answer the OP's question - men don't approach you because they don't want to risk being cruelly shot down. If being treated like a chump wasn't so endemic in Irish culture then you and your friend would probably get a lot more attention. As it stands, maybe you need to do the chatting up instead of sitting there, giving off subtle signals.

Right, I'm having my last word because we're going round in circles here. Irish men DON'T hate Irish women...YOU and a gaggle of other Irish men on this forum hate Irish women because you were rejected on more than one ocassion and sometimes not very kindly. I'm very sorry for your troubles, I really am but believe me when I say that you're the exception to the rule. Everyday thousands of Irish men are going out with or even marrying Irish women. Some Irish men have a preference for the foreign ladies and that's cool, I personally would have a preference for the foreign (specifically Spanish) gentlemen...it's a matter of taste. If I was rejected so many times, instead of getting all bitter (not an attractive trait for the ladies, by the way) and venting my frustration on an internet forum and proclaiming something stupid like "All Irish women are ugly, b**chy, snotty, arrogant cows", I'd probably have an auld sit down and review my approach. Something is not working for you guys that soooooo many women are treating you this way.

Yes, there are b****s out there as we've established but to have unprovoked bad experiences everytime just doesn't add up for me. It makes no sense. Think about it.I know NOBODY who would treat ANYONE in the way you've described these women's actions. Men are being cruelly shot the down the world over...I've seen it first hand. For example, when I was in Argentina for 5 months, the men were, how do I put this, persistant...women were turning their backs to them, telling them to F-off, putting their hands in their faces but these guys persisted and persisted with the hopes that they could wear them down. When they finally got the message, they'd move onto the next chica and tried their look with her. I'm almost certain Argentinian men aren't bitter over the rejection because they have confidence and security in themselves, much more than Irish men and women have. They can take it on the chin. Maybe you guys should have a long, hard look at yourselves instead of placing the blame on Irish women...you're posts SCREAM of insecurity and bitterness.

And to call Irish women arrogant and vain is just ridiculous. I love my fellow womens in this country but we're not half as secure in ourselves as foreign women for a variety of cultural reasons (same with the men) and comments like the ones made on this thread don't do any of us any good. Be a bit kinder and more understanding instead of knocking eachother (because we're all Irish after all) and we might get somewhere.

Oh and by the way, the men who get the most women are the ones who actually LIKE women...judging from some of the misogynistic posts on this thread, it's perfectly clear why you guys are not a "hit with the ladies".

NickNolte

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

Right, I'm having my last word because we're going round in circles here. Irish men DON'T hate Irish women...YOU and a gaggle of other Irish men on this forum hate Irish women because you were rejected on more than one ocassion and sometimes not very kindly.

Not really. I've never really been the chat-up type myself. I've seen plenty of my mates being shot down over the years by what can only be described as jaw-dropping hostility and bitchyness.

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

If I was rejected so many times, instead of getting all bitter (not an attractive trait for the ladies, by the way) and venting my frustration on an internet forum and proclaiming something stupid like "All Irish women are ugly, b**chy, snotty, arrogant cows", I'd probably have an auld sit down and review my approach. Something is not working for you guys that soooooo many women are treating you this way.

1) I'm in a relationship. 2) I am still of the opinion that a large percentage of Irish women are extremely stuck up, self-important, socially aggressive and bitchy. Obviously it's a gross generalisation but I wonder why I don't see as much of it when I'm abroad.

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

Yes, there are b****s out there as we've established but to have unprovoked bad experiences everytime just doesn't add up for me. It makes no sense. Think about it.I know NOBODY who would treat ANYONE in the way you've described these women's actions. Men are being cruelly shot the down the world over...I've seen it first hand.

Which is it? Everywhere except Ireland now? You're all over the place with your argument.

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

They can take it on the chin. Maybe you guys should have a long, hard look at yourselves instead of placing the blame on Irish women

You don't strike me as the type who would advocate that Irish men turn into persistent, harrassing sleazebags.

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

...you're posts SCREAM of insecurity and bitterness.

Hey, I'm simply saying what I see every odd weekend. It honestly doesn't bother me that much how a proportion of Irish girls want to behave on their night's out. My other half (and many other foreign girls I know) have pretty much the same opinion of Irish women. Are they insecure and bitter too? Or are we all just avoiding the elephant in the room here?

I'm perfectly happy to concede that it's a minority of Irish women giving the majority a bad name but the fact of the matter is that it's still endemic.

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

Be a bit kinder and more understanding instead of knocking eachother

I'd agree with you but unfortunately you don't see a whole load of good will in a country filled with pissed up, self-important, sarcastic, cynical blaggards (of both sexes). Such is life.

Eve_Dublin

NickNolte wrote: »

Not really. I've never really been the chat-up type myself. I've seen plenty of my mates being shot down over the years by what can only be described as jaw-dropping hostility and bitchyness.

Again, personal experiences but only a sample of a large population of Irish women. I could go into the amount of idiot Irish men I've met in my lifetime, home and abroad but again, I've enough cop on to realise these are the exception.

1) I'm in a relationship. 2) I am still of the opinion that a large percentage of Irish women are extremely stuck up, self-important, socially aggressive and bitchy. Obviously it's a gross generalisation but I wonder why I don't see as much of it when I'm abroad.

Where have you been living abroad exactly? Can you be more specific? To say "abroad" your saying everywhere BUT Ireland?? I've lived in a fair few countries myself and I can honestly say I've come across this type of attitude everywhere I've been. I've come across men from those countries complain about the women of their countries. Aussie men who despise Aussie women and think they're aggressive and loud, Swiss men complaining of Swiss girls being cold, German men complaining about how German women are incapable of letting go and having a laugh, Argentinian men complaining about Argentinian women being competitive and snooty, Peruvian men complaining how the women just want their money, English men complaining how women from England are no craic, American men complaining how American girls are superficial...etc etc....I really could go on but these men were only a sample of the population.

Which is it? Everywhere except Ireland now? You're all over the place with your argument.

Edit: Okay, I get your point now. No, I'm not claiming that this doesn't go on in Ireland, that's not what I said if you read back on my previous posts but if I'm abroad, I tend to go to the types of clubs/bars that I wouldn't frequent because generally I've no idea where to go, intially. I know Dublin well...I know where to go avoid the nobs, male and female and I know where to go to meet crowds in and around my own age, who generally wouldn't carry on like this as they've grown up and have a bit more cop on. My point is it happens the world over...of COURSE it does. NOT just here in Ireland...there's been a-holes since the beginning of time but it takes one to know one and they tend to hang out together in the same places and can easily be avoided.

You don't strike me as the type who would advocate that Irish men turn into persistent, harrassing sleazebags.

Actually, I found Argentinian men charming in their approach to a point, persistant but charming and after a while, it would become annoying. I wouldn't describe them as harassing sleazebags at all...that's why I lived there for 5 months but they got treated like pieces of poo by some of the loacl women. I saw this first hand.

Hey, I'm simply saying what I see every odd weekend. It honestly doesn't bother me that much how a proportion of Irish girls want to behave on their night's out. My other half (and many other foreign girls I know) have pretty much the same opinion of Irish women. Are they insecure and bitter too? Or are we all just avoiding the elephant in the room here?

And I was making the same observations in other countries as well. Some of the ladies were cold b***s but again, I was basing my opinions on a few women. Stupidy on my part.

I'm perfectly happy to concede that it's a minority of Irish women giving the majority a bad name but the fact of the matter is that it's still endemic.

Thank you. That was my point...it's only a minority. Maybe I can give people tips on where to go to avoid these types...PM me if you want to know...In all honesty, I never come across them.

I'd agree with you but unfortunately you don't see a whole load of good will in a country filled with pissed up, self-important, sarcastic, cynical blaggards (of both sexes). Such is life.

Grand. Fine. Lets keep on knocking eachother for all eternity. It never gets boring and is great for our national psyche.

Sorry, not an IT expert...maybe a mod can fix this?

LegacyUser

I'm totally in agreement with Eve. I do not know any women who behave like this and certainly dont myself. On the other hand I've been on the receiving end of many nasty comments from Irish men over the years.

Do I write them all off on this basis? No. There are d1ckheads everywhere.

It smacks of bitterness tbh. Theres something wrong with this mentality on here. And its all over boards.

LegacyUser

I have read through this thread and i have to say I have to agree with a lot of the guys here. Saying that I think there is a middle ground between what they are saying and what Eve-Dublin is saying. All Irish women are not not arrogant or stuck-up, thats a complete generalisation. If that was the case none of them would ever get married to Irish men, which is obviously false.

What I have found however is that they can become arrogant, rude and stuck-up when they go out. Several times I have been out with friends, both male and female, and when one of the girls is approached by a guy she will dismiss him completely with some biting comment. Now these are girls that are usually very down to earth, nice and polite, but it just seems that this is how they deal with being approached by men in bars.

I feel kind of backed up in this by comments made to me by foreign guys who I met when studying in college. They all said that Irish women are a a whole lot of fun, great to hang out and easy to get on with...once you are introduced and you get to know them. But woe betide any man who tries to approach one randomly, i have many times been told that Irish women are unapproachable, and never been told the opposite so yes it is anecdotal, but supported by similar anecdotes from a wide range of people.

So perhaps its just a psychological thing, that Irish women get too defensive while out and ignore their usual 'nice' selves. There are plenty of better ways of showing your disinterest, they may take a while longer but they don't involve hurting the feeling of a guy who is already going out on a limb.

Just my 2c

Wibbs

I would agree with the last poster and like him I've heard way too many men, both local and not say exactly the same thing. IE Irish women are grand, but tend to be very difficult to approach and often harsh in their responses. While as I said I don't get the harsh thing much I would say approach would be harder than in some other cultures. So maybe I don't get the harshness as I would rarely approach a woman cold in Ireland. I have done in other countries though and would feel much more confident in doing so as far as bad reaction goes.

Eve_Dublin

Unregistered wrote: »

I have read through this thread and i have to say I have to agree with a lot of the guys here. Saying that I think there is a middle ground between what they are saying and what Eve-Dublin is saying. All Irish women are not not arrogant or stuck-up, thats a complete generalisation. If that was the case none of them would ever get married to Irish men, which is obviously false.

What I have found however is that they can become arrogant, rude and stuck-up when they go out. Several times I have been out with friends, both male and female, and when one of the girls is approached by a guy she will dismiss him completely with some biting comment. Now these are girls that are usually very down to earth, nice and polite, but it just seems that this is how they deal with being approached by men in bars.

I feel kind of backed up in this by comments made to me by foreign guys who I met when studying in college. They all said that Irish women are a a whole lot of fun, great to hang out and easy to get on with...once you are introduced and you get to know them. But woe betide any man who tries to approach one randomly, i have many times been told that Irish women are unapproachable, and never been told the opposite so yes it is anecdotal, but supported by similar anecdotes from a wide range of people.

So perhaps its just a psychological thing, that Irish women get too defensive while out and ignore their usual 'nice' selves. There are plenty of better ways of showing your disinterest, they may take a while longer but they don't involve hurting the feeling of a guy who is already going out on a limb.

Just my 2c

Hmmm. Right. Okay...I think I agree with what your saying here to a point, actually, and I know I might be accused of back-tracking in my argument but I'm not so stubborn that I can't be swayed by a well thought out argument like this instead of massive sweeping generalisations. I'll admit, Irish women can be tough cookies in comparison to foreign women, I know I can be myself (although I'm never a b***h). Is there a possibility that this can be miscontrued as b****ness?? In fairness, i'm sure you've observed yourself that SOME Irish men turn into drunken nobs at the weekend...no better than the drunken, b***y,arrogant Irish girls.

Another thing, is it fair to compare the social lives of the Irish to other countries? I think we might be the only country (with the exception of the British) that go and get absolutely baloobas at weekends. In fairness, alot of us go out and get pretty mouldy drunk and things can get very messy. Perhaps are harshness is necessary in this type of environment...no one is themself after a heap of pints. It's a pity all our chatting-up has to go on under the haze of a lot alcohol. I come out of pubs and see everyone puking on streets, crying, shouting and I wonder where they've been..which bars and clubs. I could never relate to that side of Saturday night in Ireland because I never knew where the hell it was going on.

Maybe the big problem here is the amount of alcohol consumed by the Irish people. I think when you leave the country and you come back, you realise how bad things really are here. It's messy messy messy.Drink can bring out a horrible side to all of us. Maybe this is the REAL elephant in the corner?

Interesting debate though, no? Maybe we'll get to the bottom of this yet!

LegacyUser

Could be hard to get to the bottom of Eve, mostly cuz I think its a bit of a chicken-and-egg argument. Perhaps it is just Ireland, I dont have enough experience to say otherwise, but Irish men seem to think they need alcohol to survive the put-down they get when they approach girls; girls give a harsh put-down because they are tired of drunken irish guys. Which came first is just academic at this point.

Eve_Dublin

Just to add (I really should do some work instead of writing on here..)I think the foreigners are generally shocked at best by how much we all drink (sweeping generalisation?). I met alot of foreign ladies who couldn't understand why Irish men had to get so drunk to approach them, they couldn't get their heads round it and I know a fair few of them didn't like it. Equally, I know a lot of foreign men were shocked by the amount of alcohol Irish women could "handle" on a night out and I think alot of them were fairly disgusted. I can understand why. It was so nice to be asked out by men outside the pub/club environment when I was travelling. I'm sure it's happened to many of us that we hit it off with someone when were drunk and if we arrange to meet again, we've nothing to talk about or we couldn't compare to our drunken, confident, fiesty selves.

Drink gives us false confidence. It gives men the confidence to get up and chat up a girl and it gives girls the confidence to chat with them...or tell them to f-off, which she might not dream of doing soberly. I know I've been a lot more argumentative when I was drunk in the past and although I know it's a part of myself coming out, I'm never like that when I'm sober. That's why I drink less now. Simple as.

We need to develop this confidence without the aid of drink and rely on it so much to do the things that take a bit of guts normally. What kind of people does it make us if we rely on a mind-altering substance to give us confidence?

Dylan Moran had a joke about how the average Irish relationship, from the meeting, the dating, the marrying, the conceiving to the breaking-up or divorcing, is done under the unfluence...I have to find that...it's funny 'cos it's true (thanks Homer)

LegacyUser

Lads, as a 32 year old male i think many of you are going a tad overboard. I just don't see it myself. Some women can be vicious with their put downs but check the situation out first.

What works for me is, i just suss out the women i happen to be in the vicinity of or sitting beside and chat to them as if i was chatting to my sister. Really casual, crack a joke, try to put them at ease. If i get the impression that they don't want to be spoken to i don't try to make conversation. For me, its about reading body language, facial expression etc before i try to talk to someone.

This approach works well because 9 times out of 10 when i do strike up a conversation its because i've sussed the person out and can see that they are approachable and this greatly reduces the chances of being shot down.

A nightclub is the worst place to chat up a girl because its loud and its later on in the night when guys are generally getting drunk and not putting much thought into how they are going to approach a women and what they are going to say. Women tend to be a bit more defensive and guarded in these situations.

I also have found that if you go out with a group of friends both men and women theres less pressure to make a move on someone and you can get to know a girl and see what happens. If there is an attraction then make a move later on in the night.

On the whole i find that being really casual, friendly and chilled out when you are first talking to a women works a treat. They don't feel that you are you are trying to knock them up so will let their guard down and will chat away to you. PLAY IT COOL GUYS. IT WORKS.

adzer86

gimme5minutes wrote: »

It's ironic because if you go abroad and see the quality of the women on the continent who are in great shape and beautiful and yet they don't think they are better than anyone else and will happily chat away even if they are not interested. Where here in Ireland where we have drawn the short-straw looks-wise with the women, with the average irish women these days carrying a fair few extra pounds and caked in too much make-up, yet they think they are god's gift to men and are above 95% of men that approach them. The top 5% of women-looks wise in Ireland would just be the average on the continent.

So true gimme!
My friends and I are just back from a weeks holiday in Buffalo, NY and we all agreed that the average standard of women is so much higher than that of irish women. Now this isnt only to do with looks. Approaching and chatting to girls was alot easier i.e. they were alot more civil to each other.

Eve_Dublin

adzer86 wrote: »

So true gimme!
My friends and I are just back from a weeks holiday in Buffalo, NY and we all agreed that the average standard of women is so much higher than that of irish women. Now this isnt only to do with looks. Approaching and chatting to girls was alot easier i.e. they were alot more civil to each other.

Ah I give up......

scanlas

Women being harsh or bitchy on the opener gives you a great oppurtunity to build attraction and speed up the interaction. It's the indifferent reaction a woman gives that can be more difficult. When a woman is bitchy to you the most important thing is to remain emotionally unaffected. If you do that the woman will be attracted straight away. Often times the pick up can be more diffucult for the women who responds warmly in the beginning.

The second thing to rememeber is you should punish the behavour by either teasing playfully or shiftng your attention to her friend or by being distracted by something else. If you respond with an insult she won't have any attraction for you, it's obvous to her you take the interaction very serously and therefore don't have options with women. Also it's obvous you are insecure. A secure man doesn't get emotionally hurt from some woman being bitchy.

Bitchyness is a mechanism women use to separate the men from the boys. There's nothing wrong with it. Women need a man who is strong, decisive and secure. Bitchyness is a great way to find out if a man has those qualities by seeing how he reacts in that situation. Of cours most men won't admit this, that would be like you teacher giving you the solutions to your test before the test. The test would no longer work as a way of screening the students.

Porkpie

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

Dylan Moran had a joke about how the average Irish relationship, from the meeting, the dating, the marrying, the conceiving to the breaking-up or divorcing, is done under the unfluence...I have to find that...it's funny 'cos it's true (thanks Homer)

Ha ha he makes the very funny point that you would never make other less-important decisions when drunk, something like "Did you ever go out and buy a toaster when drunk?" Very funny comedian.

Some very valid points made in previous posts. I've had my fair share of put downs and insults but at the same time, it hasn't turned my into a misogynist yet. After all, the women that are close to me (friends, relations) are not
b!tches. Think of how many women we know that are genuinely really nice people. I think that the pub/nightclub scene brings out the worst in a lot of women who are on constant defence mode mainly due to some of the drunken idiots who harass them. Yes, there are alot of nasty women out there, but I've seen plenty of sleazy gob****es give women a hard time too.

I think it's very hard to just approach a girl in a group and try to charm her and also win the respect of her friends. There's a sort of 'who are you' mentality. If you are a total stranger you stand little chance. So it's very helpful to at least know the person to see.

I reckon anyway that pubs and clubs are not the best places for meeting women - too much drink and loud music. You may find that women are more receptive in a non-threatening environment, like, oooh I don't know, mass? library? I need help here!

Eve_Dublin

Porkpie wrote: »

Ha ha he makes the very funny point that you would never make other less-important decisions when drunk, something like "Did you ever go out and buy a toaster when drunk?" Very funny comedian.

Some very valid points made in previous posts. I've had my fair share of put downs and insults but at the same time, it hasn't turned my into a misogynist yet. After all, the women that are close to me (friends, relations) are not
b!tches. Think of how many women we know that are genuinely really nice people. I think that the pub/nightclub scene brings out the worst in a lot of women who are on constant defence mode mainly due to some of the drunken idiots who harass them. Yes, there are alot of nasty women out there, but I've seen plenty of sleazy gob****es give women a hard time too.

I think it's very hard to just approach a girl in a group and try to charm her and also win the respect of her friends. There's a sort of 'who are you' mentality. If you are a total stranger you stand little chance. So it's very helpful to at least know the person to see.

I reckon anyway that pubs and clubs are not the best places for meeting women - too much drink and loud music. You may find that women are more receptive in a non-threatening environment, like, oooh I don't know, mass? library? I need help here!

Thanks Porkpie...genuinely. Nice to know I can go out tonight and NOT feel that half of the men in Dublin hate me purely because of where I was born. lol

LegacyUser

scanlas wrote: »

Women being harsh or bitchy on the opener gives you a great oppurtunity to build attraction and speed up the interaction. It's the indifferent reaction a woman gives that can be more difficult. When a woman is bitchy to you the most important thing is to remain emotionally unaffected. If you do that the woman will be attracted straight away. Often times the pick up can be more diffucult for the women who responds warmly in the beginning.

The second thing to rememeber is you should punish the behavour by either teasing playfully or shiftng your attention to her friend or by being distracted by something else. If you respond with an insult she won't have any attraction for you, it's obvous to her you take the interaction very serously and therefore don't have options with women. Also it's obvous you are insecure. A secure man doesn't get emotionally hurt from some woman being bitchy.

Bitchyness is a mechanism women use to separate the men from the boys. There's nothing wrong with it. Women need a man who is strong, decisive and secure. Bitchyness is a great way to find out if a man has those qualities by seeing how he reacts in that situation. Of cours most men won't admit this, that would be like you teacher giving you the solutions to your test before the test. The test would no longer work as a way of screening the students.

Been reading Neil Strauss much?

The Game is a good book but I would not take it literally, don't see a lot of the techniques working in small-town Ireland.

NickNolte

scanlas wrote: »

Bitchyness is a mechanism women use to separate the men from the boys. There's nothing wrong with it. Women need a man who is strong, decisive and secure. Bitchyness is a great way to find out if a man has those qualities by seeing how he reacts in that situation. Of cours most men won't admit this, that would be like you teacher giving you the solutions to your test before the test. The test would no longer work as a way of screening the students.

You're reading too many American self help books. If a woman is bitchy and harsh, I wouldn't buckle under the pressue and cry like a little boy. I would think - "Jesus, this women is an emotionally immature idiot" and I would walk away. Do you honestly think any real man would react positively to that kind of treatment? If women intentionally behave like that in Ireland, it just petpetuates the assertion that they're bitches. Being harsh and bitchy isn't a pleasant character trait nor is it some kind of social device for 'separating the men from the boys'. It's just vile.

It's amazing how this thread has turned around completely in the last page or so. "Okay, I admit it. Irish women are bitchy and unapproachable... but it's the alcohol's fault!". Maybe you're right, Eve_Dublin. But drink is no excuse for being shítty to someone.