DCM Novices / Sub 4:30 Mentored thread

McConkey

Was just about to post that I throw mine out on the window ledge then go get changed and it has typically logged on to the satellites by the time I'm ready to head

Oryx

Did a 7.8k in 39minutes on Saturday, which was tiring but fine. However... went out Sunday and did 10.75 and it felt horrible. Took 55mins.

I'm losing strength in other areas because of the amount of running Im putting in, so Im going to shorten and do intervals if I can for the next few weeks. Once TG is out of the way, Ill be back on track to follow whatever is going on here to the letter!

--amadeus--

Looks like you lot have been getting on very well without me lately Work and real life have been busy so I'll try and catch up a bit now...

HR Training: As quoted (thanks Sub430!) HR training is something that those who do it swear by it but lots try it and never get into it properly. Tunney - who I would consider one of the most dedicated trainers on this site as well as among teh best schooled - insists that he made great progress after switching to HR based training. However it is quite complex to get right, it can be frustrating and it's something I'd be looking at if you were an experienced marathon runner looking to break past a performance plateau rather than at this stage. Have a HRM doesn't always imply HR training either. I have one and monitor my HR for information but don't train strictly top HR zones, for example.

Speed session the day before a long run: Can be done but isn't recommended. Long runs and speed sessions are both hard sessions and the standard orthodoxy is to have an easy day followed by a hard day. Doing a speed session teh day before a LSR can lead to a few complications - one of the sessions may be impared (you'll go too easy on teh speed session because you know about teh LSR the next day for example and so not get the full benefit). You may also increase your risk of injury, especially during your first ever marathon schedule as your body will already be under stress.

However the main impact of hard sessions is DOMS and that can take 24 - 72 hours to come on and pass. P&D in thier advanced programs often have hard days back to back followed by an easy day as the maintain that a well trained athlete can manage this and you have a "window" before DOMS kicks in.

Sub430

Hey amadeus,

On the training program that we shall be doing, will there be differentiation in the speeds we do each run at. The weekend will be a LSR but the midweek runs, what's the story with them?

--amadeus--

Ok 18 week program means that (cue scary music) we are starting next week! (Unless I have my dates wrong?)

Plan for the week is:

Monday | Tuesday|Wedensday|Thursday|Friday|Saturday|Sunday
rest|3 m run|3 m with 3*100m strides|3 m run|rest|cross|6


This is Novice I - there is a tougher Novice II - and full details as well as descriptions of teh sessions are available here. the only change is that I've incorporated a few Strides into the midweek session. they are there to gently introduce speed work and you can either do them during your run (making it a kind of fartlek session, speed up to a 70-80% sprint speed for 100m or so then slow back down) or do them at the end. They have all sorts of benefits - running economy, stride length, stride frequency and are a lot more fun than lung busting VO2 sessions!

Any questions yell!!

--amadeus--

Sub430 wrote: »

Hey amadeus,

On the training program that we shall be doing, will there be differentiation in the speeds we do each run at. The weekend will be a LSR but the midweek runs, what's the story with them?

Cross posted...

Yes there will. The HH training program at Novice level is entirely one paced as it's focus is exclusively on building endurance. My intention though is to have Wednesday as a speed day and so we will be doing Fartlek, Strides, LT, Tempo and (probably) PMP training at various points. The only one I'm going to avoid is VO2 max - they are bloody hard and are aimed at increasing top end speed rather than endurance or speed endurance so I don't think they are applicable in this context.

Sub430

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Any questions yell!!

CAN WE INTERCHANGE SATURDAY AND SUNDAY? (allows for pints on the Sat)

McConkey

Seems like my first couple of weeks will be off kilter with most of you guys as I need to get in a few long runs etc before the Achill half....any ideas --amadeus-- on the best way to train till the half on 4th July?

Sub430

'Cats and dogs outside so softlad did his session on the treadmill. Next week I have promised that hail, rain or snow I will run outside.

3m with 3x30sec strides. 24m05. Avg HR 153. Max 184 though HRM was playing silly beggars a bit.

--amadeus--

Sub430 wrote: »

CAN WE INTERCHANGE SATURDAY AND SUNDAY? (allows for pints on the Sat)

YES

I always do LSRs on Friday for example, move things to suit your life but try and maintain the easy / hard pattern

McConkey wrote: »

Seems like my first couple of weeks will be off kilter with most of you guys as I need to get in a few long runs etc before the Achill half....any ideas --amadeus-- on the best way to train till the half on 4th July?

18 weeks is a long time so I would contine with your 1/2 mara program, run the race, 1/2 program the week after the race and then slot in as normal after that.

Sub430 wrote: »

'Cats and dogs outside so softlad did his session on the treadmill. Next week I have promised that hail, rain or snow I will run outside.

3m with 3x30sec strides. 24m05. Avg HR 153. Max 184 though HRM was playing silly beggars a bit.

Good run. but we will hold you to that running outside thing

osnola ibax

50 mins........... 5.7 miles, both knees a little sore, gonna do really easy 3 miles on grass tomorrow lunch time, 10 min miles pace (I promise).....5.7

Sub430

--amadeus-- wrote: »

but we will hold you to that running outside thing

On this point, can anyone recommend a good jacket for running in the rain. I have a Colombia one but it's too big for me and I sweat like a mofo in it, streams of water or is this normal? I'm off to Boston next week so might be able to pick one up on the cheap.

xebec

Sub430 wrote: »

On this point, can anyone recommend a good jacket for running in the rain. I have a Colombia one but it's too big for me and I sweat like a mofo in it, streams of water or is this normal? I'm off to Boston next week so might be able to pick one up on the cheap.

I picked up a Nike one like the one below a few months ago. Excellent running jacket, very light weight and converts to a sleeveless jacket too. You'll still sweat in it too, but I don't think it'd be as bad as a Colombia one.

rainbow kirby

I think they also do a womens version of that jacket - which unfortunately seems to only come in pink

Either way, it looks quite nice, and probably better than the crappy Lidl jacket (which is a size too big too) I have. I wore that on a 5 mile run in the rain and was soaked to the skin by mile 2...

Oryx

I dont wear waterproofs. This time of year I dont mind the rain once Ive a shirt that wicks the water away. Cools you down as well.
Havent looked at starting the program yet cos of the half in ten days and cos Im all fatigued out this week anyway.. Will do what you suggest once the half is out of the way, amadeus.

Sub430

Lovely morning, went around the back roads, had them to myself, just passed by one car.

3 miles easy pace - 27m11 - HRM 150 - 165. Avg 155. Got a stitch around mile two for about 30 seconds, haven't had one since I started training, hope it's not a sign of things to come. Solution? Drink more water before I leave?

Sub430

Hal Higdon Spring Training completed.

Did a LSR on Friday with a mate who is thinking of doing the marathon too but is a bit behind in his training. He dictated the pace so it was a bit slower than usual.
6 miles in 1:04:17, Avg HR 140. Max 152.

Went to Slane on Saturday, good concert but what a mare getting home - on the bus for about 11, back in Dublin for 330am hence will be doing nothing today.

Next decision is whether to do Novice I or II. What's everyone else doing and what would you advise amadeus?

osnola ibax

I was actually thinking of doing the intermediate one programme cause I think I'm ok for that kind of mileage, also like the idea of 2 x 20 milers for confidence reasons, did my lsr this morn aswell, 8.5 miles, 76 mins, it was very warm out there this morning

rainbow kirby

osnola ivax wrote: »

I was actually thinking of doing the intermediate one programme cause I think I'm ok for that kind of mileage, also like the idea of 2 x 20 milers for confidence reasons, did my lsr this morn aswell, 8.5 miles, 76 mins, it was very warm out there this morning

Did 8 myself this afternoon, last long run before my half next week :eek: Didn't find it particularly warm, but extremely humid - sweaty weather!

I'm leaning towards the Novice 2 program, because honestly I feel like the first few weeks of Novice 1 would be quite a step-back from where I am at the moment. I'm very much open to suggestions though on this.

--amadeus--

Lots of questions - remind me if I miss any of them!

Oryx - if you have a half then I would recommend doing teh same as McC is, follow your half program, the week after do half of whatever your mara schedule says and then pick it up from there.

On teh I / II or Intermediate question... I can't see a huge problem with switching between them. Weeks you feel good do II. Weeks you don't do I. As long as you do at least what is in I then you're ok and extra miles certainly will help. As always be aware of over training or ramping up miles too quickly - better 10% undertrained then 1% overtrained is the mantra.

When choosing a schedule do look at all of it. Yes teh first few weeks might look like a big step back but its designed to build to a peak. Starting with a few easy weeks but building progressively means that you are giving your body a break. If you are peaking for a half mara now then you are training hard. Going straight into a training program that is hard and going to get harder will put you under a fair amount of strain. For example my mileage this week (I'm a week ahead of you and have just done Week 1) was around 15 miles short of my average in the last program and is around half of what I want to build to. The first few weeks *should* feel easy.

That said there is no point in it being too easy - if you look at teh whole program and think it looks too easy then by all means step up.

Nearly forgot - go team! Good luck all of you

osnola ibax

Thanks amadeus, really good advice there, that has given me a great deal of clarity now on which schedule to choose.

I'm gonna go with the intermediate 1 for the extra miles, with a sneaky ambition of getting in sub 4, I'm beginning to realize the mammothness of the task ahead though. Just another thing, I'm currenty looking at the dates for the adidas race series. My thinking is that i'll just stick to the full training programme and just run those races, I should be well prepared for them. But should I replace the long run with the race on those weekends, or should I be still aiming to get the long run in maybe early the following week to allow Day for race recovery?

Best of luck everyone with their training plans, sub430 is logging his training on this thread, I was thinking maybe doing the same and jacking my personal trainig log, it would mean we'd be checking in almost every day, how would others feel about this idea.

Best of luck guys and thanks amadeus, hope we do you proud : )

Munster_Gal

I was wondering myself about the race series and long runs. thinking about entering them as well

--amadeus--

The race series is ideal prep but I def wouldn't do a race and an LSR on the same weekend unless I took it really easy in the race. And I don't really see the point in doing a race if you're not going to go all out for a PB.

When it gets closer we'll look at it but I would be inclined to swap races for LSRs and simply drop the LSR rather than trying to fit it in the next week.

As for logging training in here that's your call. I keep my own log because I cross train and a lot of it is just waffle. My original intention was for you guys to keep seperate training logs that I could keep an eye on but there are more of you than I had expected. I will be reading them weekly anyway but it realy is up to you if you want to maintain it or not.

Bally8

I think I'll be keeping my own log and checking in over here from time to time too. I finished Spring Training yesterday too with a LSR of 6 miles in 69:53. Still slow but a major improvement from when I started the 12 weeks. I'm all excited about starting the proper training tomorrow. I will definately be doing Novice 1 as I still have walking breaks in my runs. Best of luck to everyone

Sub430

Decided to go for Novice II - Intermediate is just a step too far for me at this stage. I'll use it for the next marathon :cool:

Day 1 of training done.

3m - 24m22 HR 150-165. Avg 155. Max 171

A couple of questions gaffer.

1) What pace/HR should we be doing the different days at.
The LSR is self explanatory but what about Tues/Wed/Thurs?

2) I'm going to start doing core strengthening exercises this week like these.

http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/cms/article-detail.asp?articleid=486

How many times a week should these be done?

Munster_Gal

Bally8 wrote: »

I think I'll be keeping my own log and checking in over here from time to time too. I finished Spring Training yesterday too with a LSR of 6 miles in 69:53. Still slow but a major improvement from when I started the 12 weeks. I'm all excited about starting the proper training tomorrow. I will definately be doing Novice 1 as I still have walking breaks in my runs. Best of luck to everyone

I thought I was the only one here that still had walking breaks........
Glad to see that I'm not.
Well done on your 12 weeks Bally8.

I'll be keeping my own log seperate also, but will probably have a read every day in here. Found my first 3 miles really tough. Taking a rest day today but will probably go for a walk with my friends 2 dogs seeing as the weather is actuallly good in Limerick Blue Skys all the way

Oryx

Thanks for the advice amadeus, but I was talking with my *ahem* personal trainer (sounds good, but its not that official ) and in the four weeks following the half Ill be doing some pretty full on strength work as prep for TG. Running will be at a maintenance level only, with speed work and hill sprints rather than distance. Will this screw me up royally in terms of both staying on track here, and DCM in general? I was hoping the base I have already would allow me to pick up my training from August onwards? What do you reckon? The guy who is helping me with the crosstraining is not as into marathons as you lot here, so Id value your thoughts.

--amadeus--

Sub430 wrote: »

1) What pace/HR should we be doing the different days at.
The LSR is self explanatory but what about Tues/Wed/Thurs?

2) I'm going to start doing core strengthening exercises this week like these.

http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/cms/article-detail.asp?articleid=486

How many times a week should these be done?

Hmmm, nothing like easy questions...

In terms of HR zones the best explanation and guide I have seen is this one. The standard runs should be in the aerobic zone (70 - 80%) with LSRs a step down (60 - 70%).

Pace is a whole different kettle of fish - I can't tell you how fast or slow to run these as everyone of you will be different and you should be judging by effort rather than speed anyway. Run the regular runs at conversational pace and teh LSRs even easier and you won't go far wrong.

However if you insist on exact pacings then try this. You can input either a recent race time or a goal time (eg 4:30 marathon) and it will kick out your target paces for everything from Recovery and long runs through to sprint drills. Be careful with it!

Oryx wrote: »

Thanks for the advice amadeus, but I was talking with my *ahem* personal trainer (sounds good, but its not that official ) and in the four weeks following the half Ill be doing some pretty full on strength work as prep for TG. Running will be at a maintenance level only, with speed work and hill sprints rather than distance. Will this screw me up royally in terms of both staying on track here, and DCM in general? I was hoping the base I have already would allow me to pick up my training from August onwards? What do you reckon? The guy who is helping me with the crosstraining is not as into marathons as you lot here, so Id value your thoughts.

Now this really is a hard question... Whats TG by the way?

If my maths is right you'll be getting in 12 weeks of marathon specific training? TBH it's not ideal and the work you are doing won't do very much to help you with the marathon. Speed work and sprint drills are all VO2 max sessions and that's pretty much irrelevant for marathon runners at our level. Probably more importantly is that whatever fitness and base you have from training for teh half will have dropped away pretty sharply in 4 - 6 weeks. For example my average running pace has dropped from 7 min / miles to 8 min miles after 5 weeks off - and I've been running consistently for 3 or 4 years so would have a pretty good base.

Now it's far from impossible but I would strongly, strongly reccomend doing one long run per week during this "off" phase, and if you can do a second mid length run then so much the better. That'll keep you ticking over and you can then pick a 12 week schedule (P&D have some excellent ones) to peak for Dublin. If you were going into your 3rd or 4th marathon I wouldn't have any concerns at all - it's really the worry about trying to build so much endurance in such a short length of time. Done properly though it is certainly achievable.

Sub430

Thanks amadeus, that makes sense.

doledude86

Hey all...

Loved reading all the posts in the same boat myself...doing my first marathon this year dont know about timing and such just finishing is no 1 prioity..doing the halhingdon programme and have applied for the three race series..am a week into it now and held my own in the 10miler sunday..80mins 20seconds think thats a reasonable time going try keep in touvh with yourselves over this moral support and all that..Roll on the 18th of JUly!!!