N8/N25/N40 - Dunkettle Interchange [under construction]

hans aus dtschl

cork_south wrote: »

Good to see things happening at last but what's the story with the tender?

Once completed I've a feeling there are still going to be delays for South bound traffic at peak hours.

You'll have the M8, N25 and people from town all merging into 2 lanes to head thru the tunnel. Will be carnage I'd imagine when you compare what's happening at Rochestown Park with only 2 roads merging.

I'm much more concerned with the Dublin to Tivoli arm.
You'll have the combined flows of all of the following on a merge lane:
Dublin to Tivoli
Dublin to East Cork
Dublin to Little Island
Tunnel to Little Island
It sounds wrong and looks wrong to me.
They must know more than I do, because it seems like a significant issue.

the dark phantom

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

I'm much more concerned with the Dublin to Tivoli arm.
You'll have the combined flows of all of the following on a merge lane:
Dublin to Tivoli
Dublin to East Cork
Dublin to Little Island
Tunnel to Little Island
It sounds wrong and looks wrong to me.
They must know more than I do, because it seems like a significant issue.

Its a dreadful plan, Not combining a flyover for the adjoining Dunkettle Roundabout is another joke but that is the Irish way of doing things.

Chris_5339762

Mushy wrote: »

Arent the slip roads from tivoli to n8 northbound and n8 southbaound to n25 east still being done anyway?

Thought had read that somewhere

Just the first one, Tivoli to M8 northbound at the moment. Its the easiest one, requiring absolutely no bridges (not even over the railway would you believe). I suspect it'll somehow be used to bring in complete nighttime Dunkettle Interchange closures during the works.

hans aus dtschl

the dark phantom wrote: »

Its a dreadful plan, Not combining a flyover for the adjoining Dunkettle Roundabout is another joke but that is the Irish way of doing things.

That roundabout's getting traffic lights and very poor pedestrian/cycle route.

In my dream world, there's an opportunity to raise up the Dunkettle Roundabout and provide an at-grade route to Glanmire for rail, cycle and pedestrian up the R639. Something like Sloterdijk in the Netherlands is what I have in mind. It would open up Tivoli and Glanmire for high density.

grogi

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

That roundabout's getting traffic lights and very poor pedestrian/cycle route.

In my dream world, there's an opportunity to raise up the Dunkettle Roundabout and provide an at-grade route to Glanmire for rail, cycle and pedestrian up the R639. Something like Sloterdijk in the Netherlands is what I have in mind. It would open up Tivoli and Glanmire for high density.

The difference is that the Dutch plan for decades ahead... We plan until next payday...

Hibernicis

Driving the M8 Northbound from the tunnel roundabout today and looking at the works on the N8/M8 freeflow link, it looks like the merge lane will be quite short. I know its early days, and perhaps there are plans to widen the L2998 over bridge.

Any insights on this ?

hans aus dtschl

Hibernicis wrote: »

Driving the M8 Northbound from the tunnel roundabout today and looking at the works on the N8/M8 freeflow link, it looks like the merge lane will be quite short. I know its early days, and perhaps there are plans to widen the L2998 over bridge.

Any insights on this ?

I presume you mean the Tivoli-to-Dublin slip-road rather than the Dublin-to-Midleton one? Both are very short.

My understanding is that the bridge will not be widened. I THINK it will still be two lanes.
I believe it's possible that only one lane from the tunnel will go North. The messy merge is between traffic coming from East and from South, which will happen JUST before that point. So from the tunnel it'd be: merge with Midleton traffic from the left, then with Tivoli traffic from the left. From Midleton it's: merge with Tunnel traffic from your right, then Tivoli traffic from your left.

Hopefully the below is a help.
https://www.dunkettle.ie/media/1337/traffic-movements_from-n8.jpg

Edit: struggling to find evidence, but this may all be at a reduced speed of 50kmh. I think the bit you're referring to is labelled "link road U" here:
http://n8n25dunkettle.jacobs.com/docs/32102066%20Dunkettle%20EIS%20VOL%203%20Figures%20-%20Fig%202.5.1%20to%20Fig%202.6.22.PDF
The structure of the existing bridge you're discussing doesn't appear in any documentation other than page 33 here, and co co engineers have told me that it won't change.

hans aus dtschl

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

My understanding is that the bridge will not be widened. I THINK it will still be two lanes.


The structure of the existing bridge you're discussing doesn't appear in any documentation other than page 33 here, and co co engineers have told me that it won't change.

Looking at this drawing again once more today, does it look like it actually WILL be widened? I don't know how to square that with what co co engineers told me though. Unfortunately no lanes are drawn into this drawing.

Pete_Cavan

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Looking at this drawing again once more today, does it look like it actually WILL be widened? I don't know how to square that with what co co engineers told me though. Unfortunately no lanes are drawn into this drawing.

I was looking for something else and came across this, perhaps the answer you are looking for is under the Glanmire Road Improvement Works:
https://www.corkcoco.ie/en/Planning%20/Part%208%20Development%20Consultation/closed-part-8-development-consultation#collapse-accordion-1940-15

hans aus dtschl

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I was looking for something else and came across this, perhaps the answer you are looking for is under the Glanmire Road Improvement Works:
https://www.corkcoco.ie/en/Planning%20/Part%208%20Development%20Consultation/closed-part-8-development-consultation#collapse-accordion-1940-15

Thanks Pete, I know this project pretty well
This was the team that advised me that the bridge wasn't to be widened!

cork_south

Anyone have any idea when tender will be decided?

blindsider

From The Echo.ie

https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/Contractor-to-be-appointed-to-100m-Dunkettle-Interchange-project-e6dd0275-d89d-49c2-a278-99266adf6baa-ds

Contractor to be appointed to €100m Dunkettle Interchange project
Sarah O’Dwyer
A CONTRACTOR for the main construction of the Dunkettle Interchange project is set to be appointed by September.

The development involves the reconfiguration of the existing Dunkettle Interchange to become more free flowing by removing several sets of traffic lights and creating new slip roads.

Transport Infrastructure Ireland (TII) confirmed to The Echo that there had been an extension given to the timeframe for the return of tenders from May to June, due to the Covid-19 pandemic.

Following the receipt of applications “we will drive to have the assessment done and aspire to award the tender by September,” a spokesperson for TII told The Echo.

This contract involves the “heavy construction and making the interchange free flow east, west, north and south.”

Work at the Dunkettle Interchange, Cork. Picture Dan Linehan
Work at the Dunkettle Interchange, Cork. Picture Dan Linehan
This deadline comes following previous delays to the project.

Contractors Sisk were originally awarded a NEC3 contract, which saw the company carried out preliminary work and designs on the project, with details on how the construction would take place.

However, within that type of contract there is a stipulation that the State could seek new tenders if the contractor and TII could not agree on a price for the construction phase of the project.

It was confirmed in August 2019 that an agreement couldn’t be reached by both parties, and the project was tendered, this time as a Design-Build contract.

That means that the design and logistics of the build and the process of traffic management, among other issues, are already worked out, and the contractor that’s awarded the tender can move forward with construction.


Advance works at the Dunkettle Interchange have been stopped on site due to the Covid-19 pandemic, with just some drainage maintenance taking place to ensure the interchange stays open.

Despite this, TII anticipate that these works will be completed by September.

However, TII have said there is no start date in place yet for the main building works on the project: “We’ll be able to assess that in the coming weeks and months. It’s a matter of how the contractor will commence the work and what their plan is.”

The proposed Dunkettle Interchange Project includes the elements of infrastructure such as a series of roads directly linking main routes such as the N8, N25 and the N40 and links to the R623 Regional Road in Little Island and Burys Bridge in Dunkettle.

Four roundabouts, 52 structures of various forms, and pedestrian and cyclist facilities are also included.

Up to 100,000 vehicles passed through the Dunkettle Interchange every day, before the covid-19 restrictions came into force.

Leonard Hofstadter

Sounds encouraging. Does this mean even if we are inflicted with the idiotic Greens in power, they can't stop it from going ahead? That along with the M28 and obviously the M20 are absolutely critical if Cork is ever going to compete with Dublin.

Aontachtoir

Leonard Hofstadter wrote: »

Sounds encouraging. Does this mean even if we are inflicted with the idiotic Greens in power, they can't stop it from going ahead? That along with the M28 and obviously the M20 are absolutely critical if Cork is ever going to compete with Dublin.

Please God, although the final contract signing may be subject to ministerial approval. Hopefully the Greens can be bought off with the PT, cycling etc aspects of the new development plan, or even more zealous carbon targets in exchange for the M20 etc going ahead.

Maybe it won't be that bad, and we might even get a Cork Luas out of it...

Markcheese

I didn't know the greens were against the dunkettle ?

Cork Trucker

Markcheese wrote: »

I didn't know the greens were against the dunkettle ?

They’re against most road building, the difference is if the contracts are signed they can’t stop it

Chris_5339762

Greens are basically against everything apart from reducing Carbon emissions. They shouldn't be allowed anywhere near government, especially Ryan.

Sadly, there is little news in that article that we didn't know. I really hope this does get signed off ASAP in September though. Advance works have stopped there for now due to the Covids and for the second time the site is rapidly getting overgrown again.

Although there is barely any traffic at the interchange at the moment, I really hope they don't use that, or a general drop in traffic due to unemployment, as an excuse to kick this one to touch, its desperately needed regardless.

Leonard Hofstadter

They're against everything to do with roads despite the fact that the motorways mean there are now non stop bus services from Dublin to all the major cities, or between Limerick and Galway:rolleyes:.

Sure even in the Cork context we've seen them against the M28 despite the fact that the current N28 is hopelessly below capacity and the fact that moving the port from the city to Ringaskiddy is clearly much more environmentally friendly than using sea transport to do another 20 km of shipping into Cork.

They are utterly, utterly unfit for Government.

Cork Trucker

Leonard Hofstadter wrote: »

They're against everything to do with roads despite the fact that the motorways mean there are now non stop bus services from Dublin to all the major cities, or between Limerick and Galway:rolleyes:.

Sure even in the Cork context we've seen them against the M28 despite the fact that the current N28 is hopelessly below capacity and the fact that moving the port from the city to Ringaskiddy is clearly much more environmentally friendly than using sea transport to do another 20 km of shipping into Cork.

They are utterly, utterly unfit for Government.

FF/FG/GP will only mean good things for SF, I cannot see any of the soon to be government parties being rewarded in the next election. If austerity bites the Greens in particular will get that de javu feeling from 2011

Leonard Hofstadter

Literally the only thing worse than having the Greens in power would be the Shinners!

I hope the rural independent TDs cop themselves on and try to go in and save the country from the spectacle of having the Green party in power.

You're absolutely right, the next Government is going to be incredibly unpopular by the time 2025 comes about, Covid-19 is going to leave us with a massive bill, and despite what the loony left wing parties would have us believe, the problem with socialism is eventually we run out of other peoples' money.

There is no magic money tree and prudent, disciplined Government is needed now more than ever so we can stabilise the public finances, get people back to work and get people houses they can afford.

Governments can only spend what they are taking in, or else we become Greece or Italy, with our credibility shot, our attractiveness as a country for those well paid jobs multinationals have to offer in tatters, and burden the next generation with massive deficits which will have to be paid off long after we have departed the scene.

That said, prudent Government spending on things that will generate money for the economy, and thus help improve our collective standard of living and help reduce the pain of balancing the books on ordinary people is absolutely critical right now; roads projects like the Dunkettle interchange and M20, which their high cost-benefit ratios, will help make us more competitive, improve our quality of life and give us more jobs and help us pay off the debts incurred in this crisis.

marno21

Eamon Ryan is as detached from reality as Cork is from Limerick by road.

The 17 demands made this week just prove it. Absolutely demented stuff, let alone in the middle of the biggest recession in economic history and a national health emergency.

They are dangerous extremists and the people who voted for them will learn why they were blown out of existence in 2011. There are some very decent people in the Green Party but the leadership and the ones driving this stuff are nuts.

Hibernicis

Leonard Hofstadter wrote: »

Does this mean even if we are inflicted with the idiotic Greens in power, they can't stop it from going ahead?.

Realistically no, unfortunately. The government will be formed before the contract is signed, and until it is signed the project can be stopped.

According to the IT the Greens demand in relation to transport/infrastructure spending is “The demands also include a commitment to earmark 20 per cent of transport spending on cycling and walking, and a two-thirds to one-third ratio of spending on public transport over roads.” This sounds pretty innocuous, but it actually means that transport infrastructure spending would be divided thus:

Cycling and walking: 20%
Public transport: 53%
Roads: 27%

If that happens, this, and every other significant road project, is toast.

Hibernicis

Leonard Hofstadter wrote: »

Literally the only thing worse than having the Greens in power would be the Shinners!

/OT
The worst would be having Roisin Shortall on board. She would fight with her own shadow on a dull day and would certainly grind any government to a complete standstill. Butterhead Ryan comes next, in a fairly close second place.

hans aus dtschl

Hibernicis wrote: »

Realistically no, unfortunately. The government will be formed before the contract is signed, and until it is signed the project can be stopped.

According to the IT the Greens demand in relation to transport/infrastructure spending is “The demands also include a commitment to earmark 20 per cent of transport spending on cycling and walking, and a two-thirds to one-third ratio of spending on public transport over roads.” This sounds pretty innocuous, but it actually means that transport infrastructure spending would be divided thus:

Cycling and walking: 20%
Public transport: 53%
Roads: 27%

If that happens, this, and every other significant road project, is toast.

The transport infrastructure budget also includes air and sea...

You might get a 20% cycling / walking budget spent in the first and perhaps second years, but I don't think it'd be possible to spend that much consistently on cycling/walking over a 5 year government lifetime.
There literally aren't enough projects within even the most ambitious of active-transport advocates long-term goals.

I'm hugely in favour of active transport as many on here will know, but 20% is just a number plucked from the air. I believe recommendations at present are for a 10% allocation. If we ever actually achieved that it would be transformative.

Anyway. Wrong thread.

Back on point, if M20 or Dunkettle don't go ahead, I don't know whether it would make any difference to the government parties, politically. As far as I'm concerned they've long ignored Cork anyway.

Carawaystick

Will there be a safe and sane way to get from Little Island/ Gleantouane to and from Mahon by bike? or on foot? with this scheme?

marno21

Carawaystick wrote: »

Will there be a safe and sane way to get from Little Island/ Gleantouane to and from Mahon by bike? or on foot? with this scheme?

The Eastern Gateway Bridge is the only solution for Mahon-Little Island cycling I can see happening anytime soon.

hans aus dtschl

Carawaystick wrote: »

Will there be a safe and sane way to get from Little Island/ Gleantouane to and from Mahon by bike? or on foot? with this scheme?

Not a safe route or a direct route, but there will be a route. It'll be around 7km longer by bike/foot than by car.
The current design sees cyclists/pedestrians divert NorthWest of the interchange, an approx. 2km detour at this point. They go around 5 roundabouts and cross 2 motorway slip ramps. Pedestrians and cyclists will share a footpath in this design.

A Cork County Council Part 8 project is currently underway linking North Esk with Dunkettle. This is funded and under construction right now.
The Dunkettle roundabout (West of the interchange) is being signalised and pedestrians/cyclists get beg buttons.
These users then use either the 100kmh dual carriageway or share the 1m wide footpath directly adjacent to a 100kmh dual carriageway, with no hard shoulder. They then cross another slip ramp. They wait for "main road" traffic throughout. They will be banned from taking the direct route.
Believe it or not it's an improvement on the original design!

It's a low quality design with better (and cheap) solutions available.

In the future:
There is no design for Dunkettle/Tivoli dual carriageway or Silversprings yet.
City Council have a Part 8 design in consultation for Waters Street and Horgan's Quay itself.
There are various city schemes linking to Mahon.

Hibernicis

Carawaystick wrote: »

Will there be a safe and sane way to get from Little Island/ Gleantouane to and from Mahon by bike? or on foot? with this scheme?

Safe? Yes
Sane? Debatable/Matter of opinion
Direct/Short/Efficient? Absolutely not

hans aus dtschl

Hibernicis wrote: »

Safe? Yes
Sane? Debatable/Matter of opinion
Direct/Short/Efficient? Absolutely not

I'm not sure whether you're saying "it's fine" or "it's pretty poor"!

I'd describe it as a box-ticking exercise rather than anything.

The long term proposed route will likely be South of the interchange, but it's a long term project at best. I'd put it in the "daydream project" category right now.

dmeehan

marno21 wrote: »

Eamon Ryan is as detached from reality as Cork is from Limerick by road.

What a great quote