DTT Commercial Multiplexes (was OneVision, Boxer etc...)

Elmo

10000maniacs wrote: »

Elmo, This is your rebuke to my claim that a "Freeview" service was operating in Britain as far back as 1998?:eek:
Whats the meaning of your reply, its just a list of channels Elmo.:D

My point is that many of the channels that you pointed out as FTA on ITV Digital amount to about 11 with some regional differences

1 BBC One
2 BBC Two
3 ITV/UTV/STV
4 Channel 4/S4C/TeleG
5 five

6 ITV2
7 BBC Choice 12 Childrens BBC (Shared bandwidth)
9 Teletext
10 BBC Knowledge
11 BBC News 24
13 S4C2 Wales only (Parttime channel 2 days a week)
14 Shop

11 channels national with 4 extra regional ones. And you did not mention how available the digital channels were in Britain back in 1998.

Again to reiterate my list of FTA channels: -

1. RTÉ 1
2. RTÉ 2 17:00 - 06:00
3. TV3
4. TG4

5. RTÉ News Now
6. 3e
7. Setanta Sports
8. The Den 06:00 - 17:00
9. Cula 4 08:00 - 10:00 and again 14:00 - 19:00
10. OTV with RTÉ 1 +1
11. Community TV
12. Local TV
13. Aertel


My point was that the range of channels on FTA basis in the UK was small and all I am suggesting is that we think of Irish broadcasters before larger international ones.

TBH everyone needs to relax on this forum as it is slow spiraling into a non-discussion and just sniping.

scath

1. RTÉ 1 Dramas, current RTÉ2PM, move Current Affairs RTÉ News Now to beef it up)
2. RTÉ 2/RTÉ3 (DenTV timeshare with RTÉ3 Archive)RTÉ2 becomes kids only!
3. 3Today,News news & docs, drama etc moved to 3e.
4. TG4/IFC times after 12am, France24 dropped as could be on Onevision seperately TG4 takes up some of RTÉ2 Pm programming..

5. RTÉ News Now, Current Affairs programming like Frontline, Prime Time moved here.-could take in programming from BBC News, AJE & France24 to broaden its base.Nationwide programme could aslo be moved here to broaden the base & documentaries, making RTÉ1 more US and current RTÉ2pm based.
6. 3e (TV3 as we know it today.)
7. Setanta Sports will prob be on OneVision as FTA. so instead HOTV.
8. Community TV
9. Local TV
10 Aertel,Digital Radio, Local stations available nationally.

To hell with +1, There's the PVR for that. the spectrum isn't there for it at the mo. I think they'll go for 8 but could go for 10. I think 9 is likely with digital radio and aertel as 10th.

Elmo

scath wrote: »

7. Setanta Sports will prob be on OneVision as FTA. so instead HOTV.

Possible FTV (i.e. with One Vision STB and Card) but remember Setanta charge Magnet and UPC for Setanta Ireland unlike TV3 and 3e.

Also its not really my point what channels are available, that is really here nor there. As I said before they could only be 4 channels on DTT and ASO/DSO will have to happen.

10000maniacs

Elmo wrote: »

My point was that the range of channels on FTA basis in the UK was small and all I am suggesting is that we think of Irish broadcasters before larger international ones.
.

Maybe it was small, but it was 12 years ago. and I'd still swap it for your Irish selection above.
Twelve years later, this is the freeview list in the UK:
BBC One
BBC Two
ITV1
Channel 4
FIVE
ITV2
BBC THREE
BBC FOUR
ITV3
Sky THREE
Yesterday
Channel 4 + 1
More4
Film 4
QVC
G.O.L.D
4Music
Dave
Virgin
Viva
Ideal World
Bid TV 23 A 40
ITV4
Dave ja vu
Home
E4
E4+1
FIVER
FIVE USA
Big Deal
ITV2 + 1
Virgin1 +1
Create and Craft
Price-drop TV
QUEST
Super Casino
Rocks & Co
Lottery Xtra
CBBC Channel
CBeebies 71 B 46
CITV
BBC NEWS
BBC Parliament
Sky News
Sky Sports News
CNN (#)
Russia Today
Community Channel
Teachers TV

Elmo

Again I wasn't pointing out the number of channels but that it doesn't matter what channels are available.

Again your list is a list of FTA channels for a population of 60million of which 25 don't come from the traditional terrestrial companies. Of which 10 do not come from major multinationals, many of which seem to just be shops and I would question the relevance of home shopping TV when the internet is available.

All of which earn money from Irish through subscription fees and in the current economic times and with the high level of take up with pay TV in Ireland means that it is unlikely that any of them would like to be part of a FTA DTT service which they would have to pay to get on, currently they get paid to be on UPC and Sky and they also have advertising to nearly 70% of the population and that is before DTT is set up.

(70% is based on those in 4 TV Land, Spillover Land and FTA Satellite Land all of whom are watching UK or NI advertising rather than opt-outs or not watching at all).

10000maniacs

Elmo wrote: »

Again I wasn't pointing out the number of channels but that it doesn't matter what channels are available.

Again your list is a list of FTA channels for a population of 60million of which 25 don't come from the traditional terrestrial companies. Of which 10 do not come from major multinationals, many of which seem to just be shops and I would question the relevance of home shopping TV when the internet is available.

All of which earn money from Irish through subscription fees and in the current economic times and with the high level of take up with pay TV in Ireland means that it is unlikely that any of them would like to be part of a FTA DTT service which they would have to pay to get on, currently they get paid to be on UPC and Sky and they also have advertising to nearly 70% of the population and that is before DTT is set up.

(70% is based on those in 4 TV Land, Spillover Land and FTA Satellite Land all of whom are watching UK or NI advertising rather than opt-outs or not watching at all).

Firstly the Irish selection that you put together is not viable, because nobody is going to put money into channels that nobody watch.
Cula and Den TV are not channels, the RTE news channel is mildly useful but vast improvement is needed there.
I have had Community TV for 4 years and have not watched it once, Local TV the same. Setanta Sports Ireland is much diluted since the collapse last year.
Your proposal is doomed to failure even before it leaves the ground.
Secondly, here is a list of the UK free channels on Freeview with the rubbish taken out of the list. Each of these channels is very watchable.
I am not saying we should get a similar choice on DTT here, but at least they should give us something FTA that is an Improvement on the 4 main Irish channels. BBC 1, BBC 2 and UTV whould have made a huge difference.


BBC One
BBC Two
ITV1
Channel 4
FIVE
ITV2
BBC THREE
BBC FOUR
ITV3
Sky THREE
Channel 4 + 1
More4
G.O.L.D
4Music
Dave
Virgin
Viva
ITV4
Dave ja vu
E4
E4+1
FIVER
FIVE USA
ITV2 + 1
Virgin1 +1
CBBC Channel
CBeebies
BBC NEWS
Sky News
Sky Sports News
CNN (#)

Elmo

10000maniacs wrote: »

Firstly the Irish selection that you put together is not viable, because nobody is going to put money into channels that nobody watch.
Cula and Den TV are not channels, the RTE news channel is mildly useful but vast improvement is needed there.
I have had Community TV for 4 years and have not watched it once, Local TV the same. Setanta Sports Ireland is much diluted since the collapse last year.
Your proposal is doomed to failure even before it leaves the ground.
Secondly, here is a list of the UK free channels on Freeview with the rubbish taken out of the list. Each of these channels is very watchable.
I am not saying we should get a similar choice on DTT here, but at least they should give us something FTA that is an Improvement on the 4 main Irish channels. BBC 1, BBC 2 and UTV whould have made a huge difference.

It's not viable because no one has the imagination to improve on them. Also The Community Channel is available on FreeView, I don't see why Irish Community services should not be provided on DTT. It is currently at 802 so far up the channel list and only on UPC.

I agree City Channel are to hung up on 24 hours rather than perhaps 2 hours a day of local TV with 4 hours a day of international and national programming for national audiences.

As for Setanta they could improve their service. And with the addition of must carry status I don't see why an improvement in that channel would not be of major benefit to Setanta Ireland, they would also be able to buy FTA only sports.

I pointed out Cula 4 and The Den because both BBC children's channels share band with with BBC 3 and 4 just in the same way The Den and Cula 4 share bandwidth with RTÉ 2 and TG4.

BBC One
BBC Two
CBBC Channel / BBC THREE
CBeebies / BBC FOUR
BBC NEWS - Traditional Terrestrial

ITV1
ITV2
ITV3
ITV4
CITV - Traditional Terrestrial (Investigating Pay TV option)


Channel 4
More4
4Music
E4 - Traditional Terrestrial

Five
FIVER
FIVE USA - Traditional Terrestrial

Sky THREE
Sky News
Sky Sports News - Sky Owned wants to go Pay TV route

G.O.L.D
Dave - Virgin Media and BBC WW Owned

Virgin 1 - Virgin Media Owned

Viva - MTV Owned

CNN - Time Warner

Russia Today isn't good? And Sky 3 is better than The Community Channel?

+1's remove because they are pointless.

10000maniacs

Elmo wrote: »

Russia Today isn't good? And Sky 3 is better than The Community Channel?

+1's remove because they are pointless.

1: Maybe if you are Russian:D
2: Smile is better than the Community Channel:D
3: +1 Channels are quite useful in a lazy sort of way

Apogee

scath wrote: »

I'm too tired to find the link (flu) but I did see its mention in regards to Sat4Free and that D-H encryption was designed to close off any such operator.

This is the link and it was pointed out to you that Huffman compression tables have nothing to do with the availability of Sat4free.

scath wrote: »

I think u get exacerbated with suggestion of possibilities you think are unlikely.

You consistently conflate fantasy with reality. Reading your posts, it's impossible to differentiate fact from fiction.

scath

Apogee, I am gonna have to say to you, you're a little too edgy about the posts, and abit of chill is needed.You're lacking abit of humility to go with your knowledgeability and perhaps more knowledgeable than me.

That doesn't negate my right to post. You are free to criticise and I already have said that I welcome your point. And I take your latest point on board too.

If you take the edge out of the tone of your replies, I've no problem, as I am not an expert, nor have not pretended to be. I've said it before that I've no engineering background, other than outside of the industry, reading broadbandtvnews, dvb.org etc.

I would ask abit of understanding from you, abit of humility also and I will try and be more factual.
Don't mistake fantasy for out-of-the box thinking. You seem to be more a 'conventionalist'.

Not only myself, but Elmo has also identified that some of the posters that some are getting abit too edgy/sharp (cutting) and it is both unnecessary and inconsistent with the boards.ie community spirit which requires of all posters, some understanding and general good manners.

If u can't be more humble, I'd kindly ask u not to respond to my posts forthwith otherwise I will have to call on the moderators to lower the tone and restore a good atmosphere of discussion. I hope that will not be necessary and that you respond in kind to my acknowledgement and respect for your point of view on my posts.

10000maniacs

scath wrote: »

Not only myself, but Elmo has also identified that some of the posters that some are getting abit too edgy/sharp and it is both unnecessary and inconsistent with the boards.ie community spirit which requires of all posters, some understanding and general good manners.

There is nothing wrong with a good strong discussion on a topic that interests you. People are allowed to have differing opinions. After all its a discussion forum. The people who put forward that its edgy/sharp are usually the ones who are actually edgy/sharp.;)

scath

10000maniacs wrote: »

There is nothing wrong with a good strong discussion on a topic that interests you. People are allowed to have differing opinions. After all its a discussion forum. The people who put forward that its edgy/sharp are usually the ones who are actually edgy/sharp.;)

A discussion forum is not a license to attempt to insult, demean or humiliate someone, criticism has to be respectful. I think my posts show that I respect criticism. But its not a license to couch criticism with hostility and verbal nastiness. So I don't agree that those who put forward sharp/edgyness are that themselves. They simply are calling to order those who are being abit unmannerly not in what they say, but how they say it.

People are allowed to have differing opinions but should maintain a modicum of humility and understanding in the interests of a discussion forum spirit of debate and community spirit that encourages debate, not destroys the environment through a sort of ganging up mob.. In my case, its obvious from my posts that I'm not edgy, sharp, but quite humble and self deprecating and open to the possibility that I could improve my analysis. However I can't let people be hasty to me 10000maniacs. I won't. I make no apology for standing up for myself when people don't play fair. To need to be made aware.I am sure it is likewise with Elmo.

There's no need for words like 'it was pointed out to you'. The word pointed out is very aggressive language that uses metaphor to demean, reprimand or insult.From studying hypnosis and Neuro linguist programming, I know language can be powerful, both in the therapeutic, media and human interaction fields in general.

I don't take kindly to 'being pointed out to',like a schoolboy. That sort of language is not helpful in this community, has no place in it, and designed to annoy. Its out of order, and I won't accept it, end of. That said, I take on board the actual content, and am open to being wrong. its only opinion. But if one let's people verbally bully, then one's self esteem overtime will suffer, and life will not be so much fun.

Elmo

10000maniacs wrote: »

There is nothing wrong with a good strong discussion on a topic that interests you. People are allowed to have differing opinions. After all its a discussion forum. The people who put forward that its edgy/sharp are usually the ones who are actually edgy/sharp.;)

Edgy and Sharp might be the wrong words. No problem having opinions just some of the tone can be quite cutting.

1: Maybe if you are Russian
2: Smile is better than the Community Channel
3: +1 Channels are quite useful in a lazy sort of way

1: It's in English, just like France 24.
2: Smile is not better than the Community Channel.
3: Lazy for the TV channels.

Elmo

@10000maniacs

Never watched Russia Today. Looking on YouTube is seems pretty scary.

scath

The level of debate on RT can sometimes be biased, but sometimes its interesting. I have watched it on satellite before, since it launched. Peter Lavelle's interviews are quite funny sometimes for their so pro-Kremlin tilt.

10000maniacs

Elmo wrote: »

@10000maniacs

Never watched Russia Today. Looking on YouTube is seems pretty scary.

Still not convinced.
Is he not the 21st century equivalent of William Joyce (Lord Haw Haw)?

SRB

The 4:3 test pattern that's on in place of TV3 ! Brought back memories of walking past TV shops in the 70's......

coylemj

You didn't say if you're getting the signal over the air or via cable or satellite, it looks ok to me in Dublin via UPC at the moment.

Is there any way to get a test pattern on the screen to calibrate my telly?

slegs

coylemj wrote: »

You didn't say if you're getting the signal over the air or via cable or satellite, it looks ok to me in Dublin via UPC at the moment.

Is there any way to get a test pattern on the screen to calibrate my telly?

As this is the terrestrial forum I imagine he is speaking about terrestrial

I'd also assume he's talking about digital terrestrial.

Peddyr

How much testing do they actually still have to do at this stage? Surely they know all there is to by now?? DTT´s been around for a long time now... I was watching Ireland AM when it went off at exactly 08:30 and test card came on AGAIN! At least they haven´t put it on TG4´s DTT palce, or is it just a matter of time...? They don´t ever seem to put the engineering page or test card on RTEs 1&2 - should be grateful for small mercies I guess! :0

SRB

Apologies, I had meant to add it to the Kippure Tests thread, then, as it's obviously not just on Kippure I created a new thread but, forgot to mention the DTT platform.
It's interesting in that it's a 4:3 pattern. Incidently - if the person looking after the MHEG Text Service is looking in, the recently added page number listings on the front page are too far to the right ! (Lottery, etc)

Tbh,it's time for a Dáil question to the minister as to the cost of the testing to date and what it is for.
Liz McManus T.D anyone?

I'd imagine,theres nothing left to test on the spare channels and they should be setting up saorview now and getting a definitive decision from the one vision crowd as to their intentions.
In the meantime,they should be switching off the energy wasting extra transmissions not currently being used.

I should think a green part minister for communications would be angry if made aware of all the energy wasting going on there

Merging this into the main thread now.

Biffo The Bare

SRB wrote: »

The 4:3 test pattern that's on in place of TV3 ! Brought back memories of walking past TV shops in the 70's......

Yeah, TVs were expensive in those days.:D

Antenna

Peddyr wrote: »

How much testing do they actually still have to do at this stage? Surely they know all there is to by now?? DTT´s been around for a long time now... I was watching Ireland AM when it went off at exactly 08:30 and test card came on AGAIN! At least they haven´t put it on TG4´s DTT palce, or is it just a matter of time...? They don´t ever seem to put the engineering page or test card on RTEs 1&2 - should be grateful for small mercies I guess! :0

Surely you realise the interruptions are not due to any actual technical reasons?

There is no agreement between RTE NL and TV3 for DTT carriage costs.

pa990

what ever agreements are or are not in place.. I think they should have a 6th channel, for the purpose of testing.

On this 6th channel, they could run test card's, simulcast one of the other tv channels etc.

It would make my life a lot nicer

Sam Russell

How many channels could they broadcast on one mux? If they did the DAB radios, would that put a strain on the mux? Presumably a static testcard would be very light on BW as it is not changing.

pa990

Sam Russell wrote: »

How many channels could they broadcast on one mux? If they did the DAB radios, would that put a strain on the mux? Presumably a static testcard would be very light on BW as it is not changing.

I'm not up on the tech details of the capability of a mux, but i'm sure 8 or 10 tv ch's per mux would be possible.

I wouldn't imagine that that the dab stn's would be too demanding on bandwith.

Gerry Wicklow

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd imagine,theres nothing left to test on the spare channels and they should be setting up saorview now and getting a definitive decision from the one vision crowd as to their intentions.
In the meantime,they should be switching off the energy wasting extra transmissions not currently being used.

I should think a green part minister for communications would be angry if made aware of all the energy wasting going on there

Merging this into the main thread now.

This morning you had The Dáil live on RTÉ1, TG4 and News Now simultaneously and you want to talk about wasting power:D

I wonder is there any way to harness all the hot air in The Dáil?:D

The Cush

Sam Russell wrote: »

How many channels could they broadcast on one mux?

At the moment up to 9 tv channels (incl. sound, subtitling etc) are possible using fixed multiplexing and up to 11 using statistical multiplexing. RTÉNL will use statistical multiplexing for up to 8 channels, using between 1 - 3 Mbps per TV channel, plus radio, plus SI/MHEG-5 data.