DTT Commercial Multiplexes (was OneVision, Boxer etc...)

scath

Gerry Wicklow wrote: »

This morning you had The Dáil live on RTÉ1, TG4 and News Now simultaneously and you want to talk about wasting power:D

I wonder is there any way to harness all the hot air in The Dáil?:D

:D

Peddyr

Antenna wrote: »

Surely you realise the interruptions are not due to any actual technical reasons?

There is no agreement between RTE NL and TV3 for DTT carriage costs.

Yep.

Elmo

TV3 and TG4 both get the test card on DTT, it alternates for a few weeks between both and then on some weeks the test card is gone.

The Cush

This is an extract from an article in today's Sunday Independent by Prof. Colum Kenny.

His comments regarding DTT are interesting because they come a week after he attended his first BAI monthly board meeting, which was expected to discuss Digital Terrestrial Television.

He is one of the four new members on the BAI board who applied and were ratified by the Joint Committee on Communications last Dec but were unable to take their seats due to a possible legal difficulty which was clarified recently.

Lights, cameras... inaction as TV stations face cuts
The future's not so rosy for hard-up broadcasters scrambling to keep us glued to the box, writes Colum Kenny

By Colum Kenny
Sunday February 28 2010

...

RTE One continues to dominate Irish broadcasting, with 31 in every 100 Irish viewers tuning into its programmes at any peak time on average. RTE Two attracts another 11 per cent of viewers on average on top of that. But it has been beaten into third place by TV3. Each evening during 2009, an average of 13 in every 100 viewers were watching TV3. And the battle for viewers will get fiercer if and when plans for Irish Digital Terrestrial Television (DTT) are realised and new Irish channels are launched.

An Irish DTT system is crucial if many viewers are to continue to receive both Irish and British channels other than by means of British platforms such as Sky Digital. Yet the Government muddled over the introduction of Irish DTT and has left RTE and private companies struggling to find a way to make it work.

Meanwhile, no more than 13 in every 100 Irish homes are still confined to the four Irish channels, with many Irish viewers already depending on Sky's services.

Ireland's biggest broadcaster, RTE, receives most of the annual TV licence fee of €160. It is a sore point for some of its competitors when RTE also dominates the shrunken broadcast advertising market.

TG4 does get between €9 and €11 of your €160. Another €11 is earmarked for the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland's Sound and Vision fund, providing opportunities for independent producers to make shows for all stations. Finally, between €9 and €10 of the licence fee is paid to An Post to collect licences and chase evaders. So the lion's share of about €130 goes to RTE, which uses it to help pay for its performing groups as well as its programming.

The controversial Bord Snip report recently proposed taking another €10m away from RTE each year and giving it to TG4. That partly Irish-language station has seen its direct government grant reduced to €32m this year from €38m two years ago (the grant is separate from the share of the licence fee it also gets). The Government would probably use any new transfer of licence fee revenue from RTE to TG4 to reduce its own annual investment in TG4.

With Ireland now going through economic and social crises it is more important than ever that broadcasters have enough money to invest in programmes that can educate, inform and entertain us all, and that will help us find creative ways forward.

Prof Colum Kenny of DCU is a member of the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland. This article expresses his personal opinions

- Colum Kenny

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/lights-cameras-inaction-as-tv-stations-face-cuts-2083400.html

tlaavtech

Sam Russell wrote: »

How many channels could they broadcast on one mux?

Here is a breakdown on bandwidths used. Obviously, the numbers are changing constantly so this is a snapshot, but it will give you a good guide as to how much space each channel takes up. As you can see, the radio channels take up almost no space. The TV is broken into its video stream, audio stream and data stream (teletext, subtitles etc.).

As you can see, RTE Two is broadcasting 704x576 while the rest are 544x576, hence the higher bitrate. TV3 is showing a test card.

Sam Russell

Thanks for that.

Looking at the figures, 5 channels at RTE2 definition or 8 channels at RTE1. 10 radio channels would also fit. The three commercial mux would allow a total of about 25 channels, which is about 20 too many.

It would make sense then to launch the DTT system now as is (or was) with the 5 current tv channels and the DAB radios, with the addition of a few commercial radios.

Elmo

The Cush wrote: »

This is an extract from an article in today's Sunday Independent by Prof. Colum Kenny.

His comments regarding DTT are interesting because they come a week after he attended his first BAI monthly board meeting, which was expected to discuss Digital Terrestrial Television.

He is one of the four new members on the BAI board who applied and were ratified by the Joint Committee on Communications last Dec but were unable to take their seats due to a possible legal difficulty which was clarified recently.

Strange because I got the feeling he was up in the air as I am sometimes here on boards. Yet again anti-TG4.

And the battle for viewers will get fiercer if and when plans for Irish Digital Terrestrial Television (DTT) are realised and new Irish channels are launched.

What new Irish channels are being launched???? One Vision plan only retransmissions of TV already on the air and RTÉ seem to be pulling back from plans for RTÉ 1+1 , RTÉ 3 while there seems no commitment to the IFB TV or Oireachatas TV.

Biffo The Bare

tlaavtech wrote: »

Here is a breakdown on bandwidths used. Obviously, the numbers are changing constantly so this is a snapshot, but it will give you a good guide as to how much space each channel takes up. As you can see, the radio channels take up almost no space. The TV is broken into its video stream, audio stream and data stream (teletext, subtitles etc.).

As you can see, RTE Two is broadcasting 704x576 while the rest are 544x576, hence the higher bitrate. TV3 is showing a test card.

I don't know about you but 544x576 is unacceptable for any channels that are paid for with part of our TV license.
We are not getting a lot for our bucks really. Instead of cutting back on the standard definition bit rate, they should be investigating the possibility of putting out RTE1 as a HD channel. Most of the countries of Europe have at least one national broadcasting channel that is HD capable.
I am quickly getting tired of the indecision, u-turning and skulduggery that seems to be endemic in this sector.:mad:

Sam Russell

Biffo The Bare wrote: »

I don't know about you but 544x576 is unacceptable for any channels that are paid for with part of our TV license.
We are not getting a lot for our bucks really. Instead of cutting back on the standard definition bit rate, they should be investigating the possibility of putting out RTE1 as a HD channel. Most of the countries of Europe have at least one national broadcasting channel that is HD capable.
I am quickly getting tired of the indecision, u-turning and skulduggery that seems to be endemic in this sector.:mad:

I agree that at least RTE1 should be HD. Given that we have lots of empty muxs, we could do all of them in HD. It would be amusing watching TV3 in fuzzy 4:3 HD.:)

Elmo

Biffo The Bare wrote: »

I don't know about you but 544x576 is unacceptable for any channels that are paid for with part of our TV license.
We are not getting a lot for our bucks really.

The TV Licence Fee is not just about DTT or HD, it is mainly there to make programming and support production. Anyway they would not have RTÉ 1 HD they would have to go for RTÉ HD providing Sports, News and Movies in HD first and then other programming.

slegs

Elmo wrote: »

The TV Licence Fee is not just about DTT or HD, it is mainly there to make programming and support production. Anyway they would not have RTÉ 1 HD they would have to go for RTÉ HD providing Sports, News and Movies in HD first and then other programming.

Why couldnt they have RTE1 HD? All the content doesnt need to be original HD, it could be upscaled content. Channel 4 HD while haveing alot of original hD content manages to do this without issue.

Biffo The Bare

Elmo wrote: »

The TV Licence Fee is not just about DTT or HD, it is mainly there to make programming and support production. Anyway they would not have RTÉ 1 HD they would have to go for RTÉ HD providing Sports, News and Movies in HD first and then other programming.

Elmo, the last 48 years have shown us that the only rule about how the licence fee is administered is there are no rules. Hence the debt that RTE seem to be accumulating on a regular basis. They should start making decisions in the interests of the general population rather than themselves for once.

10000maniacs

Nearly three years ago Gombeen Ryan launched the "first" high definition RTE broadcast stating
"This is a very exciting time for broadcasting in Ireland. Ireland is making preparations to join the broadcasting revolution evolving in Europe and the rest of the world and to meet this challenge head on."
He must be still wetting himself with excitement.:D

Elmo

Biffo The Bare wrote: »

Elmo, the last 48 years have shown us that the only rule about how the licence fee is administered is there are no rules. Hence the debt that RTE seem to be accumulating on a regular basis. They should start making decisions in the interests of the general population rather than themselves for once.

What Debt? RTÉ made profits over the last 10 years and also broke-even in 2008. Granted 2009 won't look good but they did reduce their cost base and were one of the only Semi-state bodies that looked to reduce its cost base. Was it the time they were told to buy Ardmore studios after it went into administration? or the time they bought Cablelink and were then told to sell part of it to Eircom (then TÉ) or the time they were told that they couldn't hold on to cablelink and had to sell to NTL or the time after that when the minister refused to let them invest that windfall into DTT??????

Why couldnt they have RTE1 HD? All the content doesnt need to be original HD, it could be upscaled content. Channel 4 HD while haveing alot of original hD content manages to do this without issue.

I just think it would be better to have a RTÉ HD channel for Sports (mainly RTÉ Two), Movies (both channels) and news (both channels).

slegs

RTE1 HD would at least add some press and consumer curiosity value in getting people over the DTT. God knows they will need something to get people interested.

Elmo

slegs wrote: »

RTE1 HD would at least add some press and consumer curiosity value in getting people over the DTT. God knows they will need something to get people interested.

I just think the channel would be missing the main reason for HD, LIVE SPORT.

10000maniacs

Elmo wrote: »

What Debt? )

From Wikipedia
On 1 June 2009, it was reported by The Sunday Independent that RTÉ was on the brink of bankruptcy. Such reports are denied by RTÉ, though the organization acknowledges how under the current financial structure there is 'serious financial difficulty' and a review of its financial procedures is underway and to be completed by 2010

slegs

Elmo wrote: »

I just think the channel would be missing the main reason for HD, LIVE SPORT.

It could come in time. It would be a useful exercise to at least have a HD channel even if it was upscaled content. Over time live sport, movies and homegrown content like Late Late Show etc could become proper HD broadcasts. At least it would show progressive intent by RTE and the DTT project.

Elmo

10000maniacs wrote: »

From Wikipedia
On 1 June 2009, it was reported by The Sunday Independent that RTÉ was on the brink of bankruptcy. Such reports are denied by RTÉ, though the organization acknowledges how under the current financial structure there is 'serious financial difficulty' and a review of its financial procedures is underway and to be completed by 2010

And such reports were in the extreme, RTÉ moved to rectify the situation as soon as it came apparent that advertising was going drop significantly. Also note how I mention that 2009 would be a difficult year in my last post and their 2009 AR will be read with interest. After a period of time when they invested heavily into Digital Broadcasting at a time of Economic turmoil.

It could come in time. It would be a useful exercise to at least have a HD channel even if it was upscaled content. Over time live sport, movies and homegrown content like Late Late Show etc could become proper HD broadcasts. At least it would show progressive intent by RTE and the DTT project.

As I have said before RTÉ have been the most progressive, they have been dragging the Government along with them since 2001. They wanted to talk to TDs about the issue in 1999 after the sale of Cablelink, TDs weren't interested in digital broadcasting.

But yes RTÉ HD would be hugely advantageous for the project.

Sam Russell

Elmo wrote: »

I just think it would be better to have a RTÉ HD channel for Sports (mainly RTÉ Two), Movies (both channels) and news (both channels).

If they had RTE1, RTE2, RTE HD and RTE News Now

With the HD operational from 6 pm till closedown (midnight +), weekdays, and extended earlier at weekends. The HD showing appropriate material from the three other channels, mainly sport, and drama, but not news. News Now showing political, factual programmes, as well as news broadcasts. Programmes that are home produced shown at least twice during the peak times - 6pm to midnight, but on different channels and maybe on different days. For example, show The Politics Programme early on News Now early evening - even live, and then at the current time on RTE1.

Should work and pull in the viewers and advertisers. And would help sell DTT to the license payers.

10000maniacs

Sam Russell wrote: »

News Now showing political, factual programmes, as well as news broadcasts.

And not in a little box in the middle of the screen like it is now.

Sam Russell

10000maniacs wrote: »

And not in a little box in the middle of the screen like it is now.

Exactly, a full broadcast quality channel with full support of editors and decent production values. What is there now is a simple pull from the internet.

slegs

Sam Russell wrote: »

If they had RTE1, RTE2, RTE HD and RTE News Now

With the HD operational from 6 pm till closedown (midnight +), weekdays, and extended earlier at weekends. The HD showing appropriate material from the three other channels, mainly sport, and drama, but not news. News Now showing political, factual programmes, as well as news broadcasts. Programmes that are home produced shown at least twice during the peak times - 6pm to midnight, but on different channels and maybe on different days. For example, show The Politics Programme early on News Now early evening - even live, and then at the current time on RTE1.

Should work and pull in the viewers and advertisers. And would help sell DTT to the license payers.

I agree 100%. The positive effect of even limited HD channels can be seen in the press Freeview HD gets in the UK and Freesat HD has got over the last 12-18 months. It is all about having a hook to get people interested. If Free DTT / Saorview has nothing that is exclusive to it then it will struggle to grab attention in a crowded market.

Sam Russell

Basically, what I am suggesting is that RTE NEWS NOW and RTE HD would not show any content that was not available on RTE1 and RTE2, it would be shown at different times. [At least until ASO.] It would give time for a mementum to build for DTT and give more opportunity for RTE to sell advertising in competition with other channels, much more than a simple RTE1+1 would give. It would be essential,IMOH, that these two channels are exclusive to DTT.

.

Elmo

Sam Russell wrote: »

Basically, what I am suggesting is that RTE NEWS NOW and RTE HD would not show any content that was not available on RTE1 and RTE2, it would be shown at different times. [At least until ASO.] It would give time for a mementum to build for DTT and give more opportunity for RTE to sell advertising in competition with other channels, much more than a simple RTE1+1 would give. It would be essential,IMOH, that these two channels are exclusive to DTT.

I have also suggested that RTÉ Three do the same thing, i.e. RTÉ 1 and 2s late night schedule in prime time.

However I don't think RTÉ "HD", "News" or "Three" should be exclusive to DTT, UPC and Sky customers still pay their licence fee and should have access to it on those platforms. You have to remember its not about attracting those customers to DTT but FTA analogue viewers to DTT.

slegs

Elmo wrote: »

I have also suggested that RTÉ Three do the same thing, i.e. RTÉ 1 and 2s late night schedule in prime time.

However I don't think RTÉ "HD", "News" or "Three" should be exclusive to DTT, UPC and Sky customers still pay their licence fee and should have access to it on those platforms. You have to remember its not about attracting those customers to DTT but FTA analogue viewers to DTT.

The point is though Elmo that you need something to help DTT get press and get off the ground. RTE HD could start as exclusive in DTT and spread to the other platforms later.

Sam Russell

Elmo wrote: »

However I don't think RTÉ "HD", "News" or "Three" should be exclusive to DTT, UPC and Sky customers still pay their licence fee and should have access to it on those platforms. You have to remember its not about attracting those customers to DTT but FTA analogue viewers to DTT.

Up untill ASO, there would be no programme on the two extra channels that is not a repeat of, or is not repeated on, the main channels.

It would be crazy in my opinion to let $ky or UPC get these channels for free before ASO. RTE neeed to controll DTT so that they can build an audience apart from satellite and cable. They need to increase advertising revenue and this is best done by increasing the terrestial audience at the expense of the $ky and cable viewiers. $ky are currently pushing HD as hard as they can, with UPC following. It would appear that the programme content is of little or no importance, only that it is in HD. Soon $ky will have Shopping HD, Shopping2 HD, etc. Heaven forbid that we ever get to SlapperTV HD.

10000maniacs

Sam Russell wrote: »

It would be crazy in my opinion to let $ky or UPC get these channels for free before ASO.

Elmo is right. Although the market for DTT is only 13% of the population, the other 87% are equally entitled to any digital extras that RTE provide, whether on SKY or cable. After all they are fully paid up too license wise.
By the way there are 103,330 (13%) of households in 4 channel land. This is the target market for Pay DTT that OneVision will have to sell to. These 103,330 households have resisted MMDS, Sky, Cable and FTA satellite up to this date and have up to now proved to be the hardest sell for Pay TV.
Once OneVision have subsidised the STBs, paid BBC WW, Virgin, Sky, ITV Channel 4 etc for the TV rights, paid all those high salaried marketing, sales and electrical/software engineering executives and kitted out a call centre, and paid for space on the network, I don't see how they will even come close to making a profit.

Sam Russell

10000maniacs wrote: »

Elmo is right. Although the market for DTT is only 13% of the population, the other 87% are equally entitled to any digital extras that RTE provide, whether on SKY or cable. After all they are fully paid up too license wise.
By the way there are 103,330 (13%) of households in 4 channel land. This is the target market for Pay DTT that OneVision will have to sell to. These 103,330 households have resisted MMDS, Sky, Cable and FTA satellite up to this date and have up to now proved to be the hardest sell for Pay TV.
Once OneVision have subsidised the STBs, paid BBC WW, Virgin, Sky, ITV Channel 4 etc for the TV rights, paid all those high salaried marketing, sales and electrical/software engineering executives and kitted out a call centre, and paid for space on the network, I don't see how they will even come close to making a profit.

I think those 103,330 homes will not be persuaded. At least, most will not. I think Onevision's market has to be the bottom feeders in the paytv market, the minimum spenders - those on €20 /month contracts; those who still have analogue cable, or analogue MMDS. [Migration from $ky will be to Freesat, as they already have the dish.] To get these, they have to offer the same for a lot less. Never a good business/sales approach. And certainly not in a startup in a crowded mature market, already saturated.

Tightwads will not pay for TV. Never have, never will. That is a definition. I certainly would not want to be an investor.

10000maniacs

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think Onevision's market has to be the bottom feeders in the paytv market, the minimum spenders - those on €20 /month contracts; those who still have analogue cable, or analogue MMDS.

I don't think that there are many analogue cable or analogue MMDS subscribers left since UPC offered the basic digital package at a cheaper price than analogue. And even these people left will be reluctant to switch to a worse package. The picture quality on UPC analogue is at least as good as DTT on 544x576. These new boxes won't have upscaled HDMI or progressive scan.