DTT Commercial Multiplexes (was OneVision, Boxer etc...)

sesswhat

Elmo wrote: »

I am not sure but I don't think it was totally RTÉ's decision to change to MPEG4.

That's not the point, RTE should be making sure everyone knows the basic information.

Elmo

sesswhat wrote: »

That's not the point, RTE should be making sure everyone knows the basic information.

What about the BAI, ComReg, DCERN, TV3, TG4 etc they are all players in the market.

RTÉ stated right through out their tests do not go out and by a Digital TV as they are only in tests.

Blame RTÉ for the mess that the BAI, ComReg and DCERN have caused why? (I amn't saying that RTÉ shouldn't take any of the blame but there are others involved who should not be ignored.)

mrdtv2010

sesswhat wrote: »

Regardless of all the commercial service nonsense, RTE are in a position to, and should be obliged to, keep all their FTA viewers informed on the impact of the planned changes. Instead they have chosen to let everyone find the information for themselves, perhaps after spending €700 on an mpeg2 IDTV.

Unfortunately RTE et al dallied for years on the launch of DTT. Result:

a) They are caught in an interregnum between technologies: MPEG2/4 DVBT1 and MPEG4 DVBT2. It is TWELVE years since DTT was launched in NI. Remember BBC Divis started in 1953 and RTE didn't start till 1961!!! We have been here before.

The UK market is far bigger than the ROI market and naturally the next step will be T2. Tesco's is just a UK company with Irish branches, ditto Richersounds. Its all about volume and scale so a bespoke Irish DTT system will be an economic IRRELEVANCE for these companies. They won't give a flying f***.

b) The market has matured leaving no room for irish DTT to gain market share.

c) Sky are in pole position via satellite, cable/MMDS retransmission rights and any UK Picnic service launched as a sweetheart deal between the Tories and Murdoch which will spill over into ROI will cement their market power..

d) Irish politicians, regulators and lobbyists are completely clueless on DTT. Result: nothing ever happens.

e) The economy is a mess.Result: investors walk away or stall and stall and stall.

f) RTE is overstaffed and over costs. It has 2000 staff, whereas a commercial operation of similar size and revenues would have 500 staff. Its structure is unsustainable. Its DG is paid 30% more than the boss of ARD, Europe's largest PSB. This clouds objective economically rational thinking on the best approach which is to align with the UK. Had they done that in 1998 Irish DTT would have by now been a resounding success. Now they are caught in a cleft stick as NI moves to T2: the MoU means that people who want to get all services in NI will go the T2 route. This also applies to the overspill areas with NI and those in the South East who get Wales.

scath

mrdtv2010 wrote: »

Unfortunately RTE et al dallied for years on the launch of DTT.

Nope, it was the Government that dallied not RTÉ. RTÉ couldn't go ahead with things involving major investment and policy without government approval, being a state company. So the Government of 98-2002 were to blaim there for not appreciating the strategic importance and delaying the Broadcasting Act from 1999-2001. Also broadcasting was the responsibility of 2 departments which didn't help ie Public Enterprise & Culture I think were their names. Since it came under 1 Department broadcasting is getting better priority. Government of the time didn't appreciate speed was of the essence and let RTÉ down, when RTÉ had written a Green Paper on DTT back in 1997 for Government. Then the market for commercial TV changed by 2002 ie ITV Digital, Querero Espana. So it was all about timing! ie when we had the boom. Then the government were too slow to change the model when it didn't work and re-tender when Freeview launched rather than going for a trial. Time was wasted until we got into another economic bubble.

mrdtv2010 wrote: »

a) They are caught in an interregnum between technologies: MPEG2/4 DVBT1 and MPEG4 DVBT2. It is TWELVE years since DTT was launched in NI. Remember BBC Divis started in 1953 and RTE didn't start till 1961!!! We have been here before.

True.

mrdtv2010 wrote: »

The UK market is far bigger than the ROI market and naturally the next step will be T2. Tesco's is just a UK company with Irish branches, ditto Richersounds. Its all about volume and scale so a bespoke Irish DTT system will be an economic IRRELEVANCE for these companies. They won't give a flying f***.

It is, the MOU states exchange of information and common receiver equipment so I suspect Irish DTT equipment will be T2/MPEG4, simply because the equipment will be out there and suits RTÉ/OneVision to be forward compatible aswell as backward compatible.

mrdtv2010 wrote: »

b) The market has matured leaving no room for irish DTT to gain market share.

Possibly true, but there's room for gaining subscribers from analogue terrestrial land, but will that be enough.

mrdtv2010 wrote: »

c) Sky are in pole position via satellite, cable/MMDS retransmission rights and any UK Picnic service launched as a sweetheart deal between the Tories and Murdoch which will spill over into ROI will cement their market power..

Remember at moment cable MMDS BBC transmission rights also. But these will be under fire from UPC so the BBC may have to let these go under the direction of the UK Government.

mrdtv2010 wrote: »

d) Irish politicians, regulators and lobbyists are completely clueless on DTT. Result: nothing ever happens.

Sometimes things move slowly for sure like 1999-2001.But I wouldn't say they're clueless because the dept's keep Ministers informed. The MOU has happened so not always true.

mrdtv2010 wrote: »

e) The economy is a mess.Result: investors walk away or stall and stall and stall.

Its a possibility but we'll see if One Vision sign or not. If they do then that's correct otherwise no. But Eircom need triple play so they may not walk away. UPC are eating into their business.

mrdtv2010 wrote: »

f) RTE is overstaffed and over costs. It has 2000 staff, whereas a commercial operation of similar size and revenues would have 500 staff. Its structure is unsustainable. Its DG is paid 30% more than the boss of ARD, Europe's largest PSB. This clouds objective economically rational thinking on the best approach which is to align with the UK. Had they done that in 1998 Irish DTT would have by now been a resounding success. Now they are caught in a cleft stick as NI moves to T2: the MoU means that people who want to get all services in NI will go the T2 route. This also applies to the overspill areas with NI and those in the South East who get Wales.

Yip, have to agree with ya there. It looks like we're going with T2 by default, even if RTÉ don't yet broadcast in it.

More Music

sesswhat wrote: »

Regardless of all the commercial service nonsense, RTE are in a position to, and should be obliged to, keep all their FTA viewers informed on the impact of the planned changes. Instead they have chosen to let everyone find the information for themselves, perhaps after spending €700 on an mpeg2 IDTV.

RTE didn't tell anybody to go out and buy an MPEG2 set.

See you can't win. They adopt the old MPEG2 standard for DAB to keep things compatible and they get savaged for using old technolgy. "Oh, you should be using the newer AAC + codecs, they're more effecient etc."

Now they adopt the newer MPEG4 codec for DTT and then get stick for not using the older more compatible MPEG2 technology.

We need to do our own thing here and not worry about the BBC or anybody else. Sony or Toshiba et al can make sets compatible if they want or loose out to somebody who will. Simples!

An MPEG4 STB will work if you have no other means of getting RTE.

Apogee

Am I the only one getting sick of listening to all this DVB-T2 speculative ****e?

RTÉNL have published the standard. It's been MPEG4 DVB-T from the start and hasn't changed. Even if some posters can't seem to accept that fact.

scath

Apogee, that specification is subject to change until launch. Just because its published doesn't necessary mean that's the end of it, because we're still in pre-launch mode, meaning 'subject to change'. It was published in a climate of Boxer Ireland. Now time has moved on and T2 is out in a few weeks. So you can see it is indicative but not guaranteed. I think what you're finding is posters who are pro-Irish DTT adopting T2 want do see us make most benefit by having a box that works with NI, or any country and that they don't have to go out and get a new box in a few years time. It certainly makes more sense for One Vision to go for T2 anyhow to have more channels. Of course we're waiting to hear regarding that. So okay, I understand you've hear enough talk. But time has moved on making it a possibility. The BBC would also encourage ROI T2 Adoption, I have in my dissertation from em as they see the benefits and perhaps it makes technical troubleshooting easier, though on that very last point I can't say for sure as they didn't say that.

SPDUB

Elmo wrote: »

What about the BAI, ComReg, DCERN, TV3, TG4 etc they are all players in the market.

RTÉ stated right through out their tests do not go out and by a Digital TV as they are only in tests.

Blame RTÉ for the mess that the BAI, ComReg and DCERN have caused why? (I amn't saying that RTÉ shouldn't take any of the blame but there are others involved who should not be ignored.)

They could have encrypted all the trials from Day 1 .That would have stopped people buying any equipment

byte

Many of the big-brand TV sets now sell with MPEG4 DTT tuners. To rule them obsolete for T2 would be madness IMO.

The only way I could see around it, is if the FTA mux is MPEG4 DVB-T1 and the Onevision muxes T2.

Apogee

@scath ISTR It wasn't that long ago you didn't even know what DVB-T2 was until one of the posters on here explained it to you.

Since then, you've continued to wax lyrical about DVB-T2 despite the fact that at no time whatsoever have RTÉ, RTÉNL, OneVision or anyone else stated anything other than the Irish standard being MPEG4 DVB-T.

The technical merits of DVB-T2 notwithstanding, the Irish standard is DVB-T and no amount of wishful thinking will change that.

And I seem to remember Watty threatening posters with bans if they continued to speculate on RTÉNL employing DVB-T2. It's confusing enough for non-regulars on here.

scath

byte wrote: »

Many of the big-brand TV sets now sell with MPEG4 DTT tuners. To rule them obsolete for T2 would be madness IMO.

The only way I could see around it, is if the FTA mux is MPEG4 DVB-T1 and the Onevision muxes T2.

Madness for whom? Madness for the consumer or madness for the manufacturers? Well tough titty for the manufacturers. They can always sell those TVs in other markets can't they.

As for us I think it makes sense for us to go the way of the UK for spectrum, energy consumption on masts reasons and for value for money for the consumer.

People who go out and by TVs without waiting well they take their chance. Of course its annoying but like, the need to be made aware DTT is coming alright and if they can put off buying a new TV then be encouraged to buy a stb if they really want to instead.

byte

Well, madness for those who already bought MPEG4 TV's.

And, correct me if I'm wrong, but the UK will only have one mux for T2, not their entire system?

scath

Apogee wrote: »

@scath ISTR It wasn't that long ago you didn't even know what DVB-T2 was until one of the posters on here explained it to you.

Not quite correct. I may not have understood the technical aspects as I'm not an engineer or with that background and that is fair enough. But I was aware of DVB-T2 before I read it on this board, from speaking directly with BBC NI for my dissertation.

Yes rejslf made a compelling argument for its adoption, and seemed to have the technical facts to back that up.

I accept that RTÉ NL may go with DVB-T1. I don't argue that fact. They have never stated they will go with DVB-T2. So for sure we have to assume its MPEG4 DVB-T1 until told otherwise. But they also advice explicitedly people that the public should know equipment isn't available out there for Irish DTT so one can read, are not encouraging people to buy such equipment. This includes MPEG4 DVB-T1.

We can't know One Vision's intent other than knowing that Arquiva have been part of DVB-T2 MPEG4 testing in the UK. That's because One Vision have said very little, with even no website since 2008 except that they're in negotiations with the BAI and progress analysis via the media.

the Irish standard is DVB-T 'at the moment Until we hear otherwise we can assume it.

Apogee wrote: »

And I seem to remember Watty threatening posters with bans if they continued to speculate on RTÉNL employing DVB-T2. It's confusing enough for non-regulars on here.

Apogee, I understand its getting on your nerves. I'd say don't get hung up on it. Does it matter which it adopts. Its RTÉ NL's decision in the end and that has to be respected ultimately.

Its DVB-T1 MPEG4 for now. Its fair comment do speculate if that may change given developments which is why I suspect mods haven't stepped in yet.

Maybe we all need to take a break from T2 speculation until we hear otherwise but I don't think we should get stalinist about it and stamp out all DVB-T2 talk except just keep it to the T2 thread for the most part. What do you think Apogee? I'm not trying to be smart only discuss the merits and wouldn't get personal due to differing thinking on it. Some prefer things to stay T1-MPEG4 because people have bought new TVs. That's fair enough. Same argument goes for MPEG2 TVs. Both are valid arguments.

slegs

Terracom have confirmed to me they are certifying Saorview kit to DVB-T MPEG4 specification as published on rtenl.ie

The specification is not subject to change anymore - its officially set for launch at DVB-T MPEG4 with MHEG 5 Uk Profile for digital teletext.

Elmo

Also may we all point out that the majority of Irish viewers pay for TV. So even if RTÉ NL go with DVB-T2 MPEG4 rather than DVB-T MPEG 4 most Irish people are used to a STB so prob won't even notice that their brand new DVB-T MPEG 4 TV doesn't work with DTT since the are prob watching TV via a Satellite or Cable STB.

Also most people don't care as long as they get to watch the Telly.

slegs

Its beyond me why are people continuing to speculate on DVB-T2 when it is not going to happen....

sesswhat

slegs wrote: »

Terracom have confirmed to me they are certifying Saorview kit to DVB-T MPEG4 specification as published on rtenl.ie

Any reason why it's taken over a year to get to this point?

Edit: What I mean is from this document, drawn up by RTE working with Teracom in Dec 2008, to the stage where they are actually starting to certify equipment.

channelsurfer2

seeing as its taken years to get to mpeg4 standard I cant seem em even talking about t2 until switchover is well underway. the optimist in me says that by christmas this year i will be able to watch bbc1 and 2 along with all the irish channels in digital widescreen with the mpeg4 tv i currently have. i will wait for HD... I seem to recall that OneVision if they do launch envisaged having little or nor space for HD except for one off special events at least it the first 3 to 5 years....

pa990

can we give the whole T2 thing a rest.

The specs published are for mpeg4 T1.

snaps

channelsurfer2 wrote: »

seeing as its taken years to get to mpeg4 standard I cant seem em even talking about t2 until switchover is well underway. the optimist in me says that by christmas this year i will be able to watch bbc1 and 2 along with all the irish channels in digital widescreen with the mpeg4 tv i currently have. i will wait for HD... I seem to recall that OneVision if they do launch envisaged having little or nor space for HD except for one off special events at least it the first 3 to 5 years....

Or everything we have just forked out for will be useless as it will be in DVB-T2 Mpeg 4.

I can see it happening, as this country at the moment doesnt know its arse from its elbow!

slegs

sesswhat wrote: »

Any reason why it's taken over a year to get to this point?

Edit: What I mean is from this document, drawn up by RTE working with Teracom in Dec 2008, to the stage where they are actually starting to certify equipment.

I havent spoken to anyone in RTE NL but accoriding to reports RTE were refusing to move further until the commercial situation for Pay TV was clear with regards to support for sharing the costs of the rollout and operation. That sitiuation has clearly changed for one of two reasons. Either RTE are now ploughing ahead with Saorview in the absence of commercial agreement or the commercial agreements have progressed to the point of nearing completion in which case RTE are getting the process kickstarted.

reslfj

slegs wrote: »

Its beyond me why are people continuing to speculate on DVB-T2 when it is not going to happen....

Well "It ain't over 'til the fat lady sings"

Just a few new links:
http://www.digitaltvnews.net/content/?p=12635
http://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2010/02/01/rtvv-launches-dvb-t2-consultation/

Or read the Swedish consultation (use google for translation or read the English summary)

Or read page 26 ff of the January CSI

75% of Sony 2010 UK IDTV's has FreeviewHD support, 50% of LG's ....

Lars

PS! Is this Teracom testing anything but a MHEG test of the TV sets already tested for Boxer Danmark/Sweden ?

Apogee

Kensington

DVB-T2 is not going to be on launch day. It just isn't going to happen.

- To switch to DVB-T2 will render what equipment is already in the market, capable of receiving the RTÉ DTT channels right this instant, completely obsolete. Integrated digital TVs, anyone who may have bought a STB etc. Its going to be difficult enough as it is for SaorView to launch - going and ruling out a lot of digital ready (unofficial as they may be) receivers is just utter madness and a sure way to crash and burn DTT in this country.

- As T2 is relatively new, the expense of building boxes capable of decoding this new modulation system will bump the launch cost of "saorview" even further - you won't see sub-€100 STBs anytime soon using a DVB-T2 tuner. DTT needs cheap, low budget but reliable and proven receivers to be a success. Who's going to pay a few hundred for a DVB-T2 receiver just so they can watch the news on the 14" portable in the kitchen?

- All tests up to now have been in DVB-T1. Switch to DVB-T2, means racking out transmitter halls with updated equipment, reconfiguration, performing new tests etc. etc. More costs and more delays, neither of which can be afforded at this stage.


Much of the Teracom testing being carried out will be software based more than anything - ironing out any MHEG-5 bugs and issues with suppliers, sorting out things like the É in RTÉ One channel title either escaping to a load of garbled, jumbled characters (RTé One) or not appearing at all (RT One), testing and setting EPG standards etc.

slegs

reslfj wrote: »

Well "It ain't over 'til the fat lady sings"

Just a few new links:
http://www.digitaltvnews.net/content/?p=12635
http://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2010/02/01/rtvv-launches-dvb-t2-consultation/

Or read the Swedish consultation (use google for translation or read the English summary)

Or read page 26 ff of the January CSI

75% of Sony 2010 UK IDTV's has FreeviewHD support, 50% of LG's ....

Lars

PS! Is this Teracom testing anything but a MHEG test of the TV sets already tested for Boxer Danmark/Sweden ?

And what the bejesus has this to do with Irish DTT and the already chsoen standard here?

We all know DVB-T2 is great and that its starting to be adopted in other countries as an addon service for HD (that already have a bloody working DTT service in DVB-T by the way).

Doesnt change a single thing though. The standard is chosen, published and testing has begun.

When DVB-T2 becomes widely available and cheap we too can upgrade one MUX to DVB-T2 like these other countries.

But for now we need to get on with a launch.

STB

slegs wrote: »

And what the bejesus has this to do with Irish DTT and the already chsoen standard here?

We all know DVB-T2 is great and that its starting to be adopted in other countries as an addon service for HD (that already have a bloody working DTT service in DVB-T by the way).

Doesnt change a single thing though. The standard is chosen, published and testing has begun.

When DVB-T2 becomes widely available and cheap we too can upgrade one MUX to DVB-T2 like these other countries.

But for now we need to get on with a launch.

I think there are a few posters here who are either sitting on a mountain of DVB-T2 boxes or are developers of same!

The sad thing is that it wont effect the UK never mind Ireland in the next 5-10 years. Can you imagine the average UK punters (there are 66 million of them) attitude if they were told that now that you have gotten rid of your analogue setup and now that you have your mpeg2 box, we are going to switch it all off and you have to buy a MPEG4 DVBt2 box... Double DSO!

Who is fooling who. The sad thing is that 98% of the UK channels will remain in super lossy MPEG2 for the forseeable future (with all the talk of new platforms!). Talk about a mess. Total confusion.

In the meantime we have adopted the more efficient MPEG4 like the rest of our European brothers. We are already seeing the proof of this through cheap and available hardware from Europe who have also adopted the same tecnology NOW . We are no longer dependent on UK distribution as the likes of SaorTv will profess. Infact the solution of HD COMBO boxes has to be most relevant development for Irish householders wishing to get a mix of Irish and British stations for free TV.

It is time to start talking about technology that is our own and to ignore thread hijackers and their dreams of what their own might do in the future (and lets face it thats where DVBt2 is). Their own confusion is begining to rub off on posters here (if you throw enough mud.....).

However I have stuck DVB-T2 in my calendar to discuss in 2015.

lawhec

The introduction of DVB-T2 in countries that are doing so, like the UK, are doing it to launch HD services where the current bandwidth of digital terrestrial transmissions are already close to or at maximum capacity. To introduce HD broadcasts on DTT in the UK current SD broadcasts have had to be shuffled (on what is already a crowded platform) to clear one multiplex free in some areas to be converted to DVB-T2 to broadcast HD, otherwise it couldn't be done without dropping some current SD services. Sweden and Finland intend to launch DVB-T2 multiplexes on VHF frequencies that they did not intend to use because again there is (or at least perceived) a lack of room on current multiplexes and UHF allocations with adequate ERPs. In other countries where current DVB-T capacity is not as pressurised, like France, Australia and New Zealand, HD services are happily being broadcast away using either MPEG2 or MPEG4 alongside SD services with DVB-T.

DVB-T2 is a technology firmly in its infancy right now. DVB-T is fully mature and perfectly adequate for SD services (MPEG2 or MPEG4) and HD depending on available frequency allocations and resulting capacity through broadcast configurations. All the main transmission sites in the Irish Republic have nine multiplexes cleared (8 UHF, 1 VHF though this might be rearranged for the potential clearance of E61-69 for other services.) after DSO in the country is completed. The talk of DVB-T2 for DTT in the Irish Republic as I see it is being talked about here to whip up scaremongering about Ireland being "left behind" in terms of broadcast technology when there is no call for it - DVB-T MPEG4 that has been adopted is consistent with current roll out and adoption plans for SD services right now across Europe. None of the three main broadcasters (RTÉ, TG4 and TV3) have any firm plans for HD broadcasts at present. Neither of them, nor have RTÉNL, made any talk about DVB-T2. In due course DVB-T2 may be introduced in Ireland as part of a roll out of terrestrial HD services - this will depend on the circumstances that shall arise for when it happens. But until then it is nothing more than a technological debate among a bunch of anoraks and enthusiasts on an internet discussion board even if it might have crossed the minds of broadcast engineers and bean counters.

STB

lawhec wrote: »

The introduction of DVB-T2 in countries that are doing so, like the UK, are doing it to launch HD services where the current bandwidth of digital terrestrial transmissions are already close to or at maximum capacity. To introduce HD broadcasts on DTT in the UK current SD broadcasts have had to be shuffled (on what is already a crowded platform) to clear one multiplex free in some areas to be converted to DVB-T2 to broadcast HD, otherwise it couldn't be done without dropping some current SD services. Sweden and Finland intend to launch DVB-T2 multiplexes on VHF frequencies that they did not intend to use because again there is (or at least perceived) a lack of room on current multiplexes and UHF allocations with adequate ERPs. In other countries where current DVB-T capacity is not as pressurised, like France, Australia and New Zealand, HD services are happily being broadcast away using either MPEG2 or MPEG4 alongside SD services with DVB-T.

DVB-T2 is a technology firmly in its infancy right now. DVB-T is fully mature and perfectly adequate for SD services (MPEG2 or MPEG4) and HD depending on available frequency allocations and resulting capacity through broadcast configurations. All the main transmission sites in the Irish Republic have nine multiplexes cleared (8 UHF, 1 VHF though this might be rearranged for the potential clearance of E61-69 for other services.) after DSO in the country is completed. The talk of DVB-T2 for DTT in the Irish Republic as I see it is being talked about here to whip up scaremongering about Ireland being "left behind" in terms of broadcast technology when there is no call for it - DVB-T MPEG4 that has been adopted is consistent with current roll out and adoption plans for SD services right now across Europe. None of the three main broadcasters (RTÉ, TG4 and TV3) have any firm plans for HD broadcasts at present. Neither of them, nor have RTÉNL, made any talk about DVB-T2. In due course DVB-T2 may be introduced in Ireland as part of a roll out of terrestrial HD services - this will depend on the circumstances that shall arise for when it happens. But until then it is nothing more than a technological debate among a bunch of anoraks and enthusiasts on an internet discussion board even if it might have crossed the minds of broadcast engineers and bean counters.

Bedises the fact that it is unlikely that we would need DVB-T2 to deliver HD in Ireland. DVB-T will be fine.

Remember this ? It was on DVB-T

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLGl1dWNyqs

The Cush

sesswhat wrote: »

Any reason why it's taken over a year to get to this point?

Edit: What I mean is from this document, drawn up by RTE working with Teracom in Dec 2008, to the stage where they are actually starting to certify equipment.

slegs wrote: »

I havent spoken to anyone in RTE NL but accoriding to reports RTE were refusing to move further until the commercial situation for Pay TV was clear with regards to support for sharing the costs of the rollout and operation. That sitiuation has clearly changed for one of two reasons. Either RTE are now ploughing ahead with Saorview in the absence of commercial agreement or the commercial agreements have progressed to the point of nearing completion in which case RTE are getting the process kickstarted.

What slegs said and that document was developed in co-operation with Teracom Boxer in late 2008 a few months later the Boxer bid collapsed.

The Cush

slegs wrote: »

Was there ever any indication from Onevision as to which encryption they would use? Most STBs come with Conax built in.

Got your email re: Conax embedded Edision Argus mini 2 in 1 Combo HD Satellite/DTT Receiver

Regarding encryption on Irish DTT no official announcement.
In OneVision's application document they list Nagravision, Irdeto, Latens and Viaccess as possible options.