All TV channels missing, but radio is fine - any ideas?

MPEG4

pinarout wrote: »

the issue is this:

the tv makes no claims to work with dvb-T MPEG 4 transmissions. end of story

Wrong story mate! The fact is the Panasonic TVs do work with MPEG-4 transmissions (already proved); the real issue is that they will not mark and store the channel because of a DVB-T information element defined in the DVB-T standard that Panasonic claim conformity to. It has nothing to do with working with MPEG4 or MPEG2.

You are clouding the issue because you obviously don't understand it.

SRB

Maybe he/she works for Panasonic, it's obvious they don't understand it either !

steveq

Well put, STB.

I have had a number of communications with Panasonic Customer Service on this point.

I have pointed out that they claim that the TV is compliant with the international DVB standards in the documentation. I quoted EN 300 468 specifically and even sent them the Service Types table.

They ignore that point and keep saying that the TV was only intended for the UK market and that they do not intend doing anything to rectify the situation.

TheDriver

maybe if the more knowledgeable could write a letter to Panasonic, post it up here and we can all copy and paste it into an email and send it to Panasonic so they get the idea that there are lots of people with this TV in Ireland and not happy?

STB

I suggest someone ask esti to contact panasonic given the brick wall responses received by posters here already.

http://www.etsi.org/WebSite/Technologies/DVB.aspx

maxg

pinarout wrote: »

You find a peice of legislation that says every DVB box should decode MPEG 4 encoded video off air. Just because the TV can decode MPEG 4 via Freesat doesnt mean it has to be able to do it out of the box via the DVB-T side

The TVs will have been designed many moons ago, BEFORE RTE were using mpeg 4; indeed they were initially using MPEG 2 TEST SIGNALS

Are you kiding.
Do you say there are different mpeg4 versions on the market? A good one via satellite and a bad one via DVB-T?
The complaint is not missing mpeg4 support. Mpeg4 decoding is working.
The complaint is missing support of service types which all are well defined in the dvb standards.
Once more the problem is the channel scan which is not willing to store the irish channels in the channel list and therefor there is nothing to select in channel list and guide after a scan.
The channel scan is ignoring a valid value in one byte of the non compressed service data and that is the breach of the declaration of conformity.

TheDriver

my channel guide and now and next is gone from this morning but z81 still decoding loud and clear!!

maxg

pinarout wrote: »

the issue is this:

the tv makes no claims to work with dvb-T MPEG 4 transmissions. end of story

Panasonic claims to follow the dvb standards.
There is only one set of dvb standards for whole europe.
If Panasonic would follow the promised confirmity the TV would work for every dvb-t broadcast in europe.
DVB-T2 is a other story but dvb-t2 is not used in Ireland.

claremont cairn

Can anyone please post the channel settings file which has the RTE channel list from claremont cairn for the PZ81B. Thanks

ToyotaF1

maxg wrote: »

The complaint is not missing mpeg4 support. Mpeg4 decoding is working.
The complaint is missing support of service types which all are well defined in the dvb standards.
Once more the problem is the channel scan which is not willing to store the irish channels in the channel list and therefor there is nothing to select in channel list and guide after a scan.
The channel scan is ignoring a valid value in one byte of the non compressed service data and that is the breach of the declaration of conformity.

I emailed Panasonic on this issued and this is the response I get:

Thank you for your further mail and points raised. I apologise for the delay in the response to your e-mail but I have been required to investigate in more detail.

Having discussed your particular complaint with our management team for clarification and consideration of your points we would respond with the following comments.

You are correct with regards to the issues being related to the updates and change of service type but these are together with a number of additional trials and updates will continue to be presented until RTENL have confirmed the final standards and services.

RTE have made the decision to jump straight to the DVB-DTT standard which is different to that in the UK, the speed of change and the level of DVB standard differs from county to country. The UK being an earlier adopter to the standard is heavily due to the switch over route with the MPEG2 compression standard. RTE have chosen to go straight to the DTT MPEG4 compression which renders the UK Freeview compliant sets incompatible in the Republic of Ireland. We have no schedules or plans indicating a timescale for the UK to move to a DVB-DTT signal and will await the information for the UK broadcasters.

We are compliant with DVB standards and would refer you to the following site if you wish to reference the claims we make with regards to the general DVB standards.

www.etsi.org
www.dvb.org
www.digitag.org

DVB-DTT is the chosen standard for the Republic of Ireland as indicated on the digital television Ireland website link below.

http://www.digitaltelevision.ie/National+DTT/Useful+Information.htm

On this site you are advised as follows:-

DTT Receivers

A minimum specification for DTT receivers for the Irish Market has been finalised. This specification is available from the RTÉ website – http://www.rtenl.ie/

Receivers on the Irish market will use the MPEG 4 compression standard which is being used in Estonia, Denmark, France, Hungary, Lithuania, Norway, Portugal, Slovenia, New Zealand and South Africa. More details are available from http://www.dvb.org/. This is different to the MPEG 2 compression standard used in the UK. Retailers should note that televisions with MPEG 2 tuners only, will not pick up the Irish DTT service when it develops.

We would also refer you to the RTENL website for information with regards to the test transmission and DTT rollout the link shown below.

http://www.rtenl.ie/dtt.htm

You are advised on their site of the two following points:-

1. Under the title HOW DO I GET IT? ..
“Please note that, when launched, Irish DTT will use MPEG4 technology. The majority of UK "Freeview" boxes and iDTVs will not work.”
2. Under the heading “ DIGITAL ROLL OUT”
“Under no circumstances should the test transmissions be considered an operational service.”

The signal is still subject to change and it has been indicated by RTE this will not be finalised until mid to late 2009.

We have also referred to the which.co.uk website to check the advice and information you indicated was provided on this site to validate your purchase of this equipment.
You indicated that “the requirement to receive Freesat and the Irish DTT stations” we have verified this and no such information existed to indicate the ability to receive the “the Irish DTT stations” if you have details of which pages indicated this we will discuss this with the Which group.

We unfortunately are not licensed to sell the Freesat compliant equipment into the Republic of Ireland and therefore unable to supply a unit which would be compliant to receive Freesat and the Irish DTT stations.

We therefore have no solution for your issues with the DVB-DTT transmission issues you are experiencing and would refer you to our previous statements. If the users have purchased these units expressly for DTT functionality, and it was marketed to them by the retailer from whom they purchased the unit on this basis alone, we would suggest they contact these retailers to address their issues.

Of course, Panasonic is fully committed to supporting our products marketed specifically for the Republic of Ireland to ensure continued functionality, this will be dependant upon the final RTE defined format and timing of its implementation.
We appreciate that this response may cause some disappointment to our customers. However, our position is clear with regard to DTT compliant products in the Republic of Ireland.

Kind Regards
A****** C*****
Dealer Support / Correspondence Team
Panasonic UK Ltd

TheDriver

sounds like they actually thought about their reply!!

Apogee

Panasonic wrote: »

RTE have made the decision to jump straight to the DVB-DTT standard which is different to that in the UK, the speed of change and the level of DVB standard differs from county to country.

There's no such thing as the "DVB-DTT standard". The DVB-T standard is the same in every country - that's why it's called a standard. Do they still not understand the difference between signal modulation/channel coding etc and video compression?

Panasonic wrote: »

We are compliant with DVB standards and would refer you to the following site if you wish to reference the claims we make with regards to the general DVB standards.

They are not compliant.

maxg

There are 2 key strokes needed to add the value 0x16 (16 in hex) to the table of valid service types in the firmware of the pz81/lzd81 TV's and that is the whole fix.
Service type 0x16 is simply a valid value due to the dvb standards and ignoring channels with that service type is a breach of the dvb standards.
It looks like the panasonic staff is not able to understand such simple things.

TheDriver

maxg wrote: »

There are 2 key strokes needed to add the value 0x16 (16 in hex) to the table of valid service types in the firmware of the pz81/lzd81 TV's and that is the whole fix.
Service type 0x16 is simply a valid value due to the dvb standards and ignoring channels with that service type is a breach of the dvb standards.
It looks like the panasonic staff is not able to understand such simple things.

You sound like you really know the ins and outs of this system and what needs to be done, maybe you could suggest this to Panasonic or indeed could you liaise with the poster who got the reply and put this to Panansonic?
Or is a hacked firmware possible?

maxg

The complaint should be about the channel search which is not willing to accept channels with service type 0x16 and don't store them in the channel list.
That is the theme and nothing else.
The question is will Panasonic add the missing byte via 2 key strokes to the table of valid service types in the firmware of the PZ81/LZD81 TV's and offer that firmware update.
Yes or no.

Btw misleading advertisement via faked DVB logos at the TV's and faked declarations of conformity is a crime.




For the records:

ETSI EN 300 468 V.1.7.1 (valid at the time of the declaration of conformity)

Page 62:
6.3.2 Service descriptor

service_type: This is an 8-bit field specifying the type of the service. It shall be coded according to table 79.


Page 63:
Table 79: service type coding

0x00 reserved for future use
0x01 digital television service
0x02 digital radio sound service
.
.
0x16 advanced codec SD digital televison service

peking97

If a manufacturer is not compliant with the published standard should that fact not be reported to the manufacturers governing body or umbrella group....assuming there is one?

Charlie-Bravo

peking97 wrote: »

If a manufacturer is not compliant with the published standard should that fact not be reported to the manufacturers governing body or umbrella group....assuming there is one?

good question...is it these guys we complain to?

www.etsi.org
www.dvb.org
www.digitag.org

maxg

You should complain to panasonic uk first and tell them you want the promised DVB conformity.
All the excuses have nothing to do with the real problem.
The problem is the service type and nothing else.

Apogee

If anyone else is contemplating getting a Freesat TV, then we have confirmation that the LG range are, unlike Panasonic, compliant with the DVB standards and do scan in the Irish DTT channels.

http://www.lge.com/uk/tv-audio-video/televisions/index.jsp

32LF7700
37LF7700
42LF7700
47LF7700

bob11

Apogee wrote: »

If anyone else is contemplating getting a Freesat TV, then we have confirmation that the LG range are, unlike Panasonic, compliant with the DVB standards and do scan in the Irish DTT channels.

http://www.lge.com/uk/tv-audio-video/televisions/index.jsp

32LF7700
37LF7700
42LF7700
47LF7700

And I see that Richer sounds are doing a good deal on these TVs at the minute : http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055619974

radiospan

Might be worth making the point to Panasonic that this isn't the usual complaint about UK TV's not working in Ireland, as these TV's already have MPEG4 decoders and were working with RTENL's MPEG4 DTT until a minor change was made in the broadcast.

Apogee

You could take a few pictures or make a youtube video of the PZ81Bs with the Irish DTT channels displayed. Not that Panasonic "support" give a damn either way.

GadgetGeek

GadgetGeek wrote: »

For future reference:

The way to backup the files:
1. Down load a copy of keithoh file (Attachment 80690) (Mt. Leinster TH46PZ81B).
2. Delete the hotel_setup folder and keep the hotel.pwd
3. Format a SD card, put the hotel.pwd on the SD card.
4. Put the SD card into the TV.
5. TV says Data copy (Hotel) Input password
6. Enter 4850
7. Data is backed up

To restore re-enter card and enter 4851

If anyone in the Cork / Kerry area has a PZ81B and hasn't lost the DTT channels, can you post the data for Spur Hill or Mullaghanish.

I just installed keithoh file (Mt. Leinster) and I got all my channels back on DVB. Seems that the same file works in Cork. Thanks keithoh .

Charlie-Bravo

Gadget Geek, what channel are you getting that on?

I'm off Greystones and (think) it's Channel 52...if it is the same channel I might use one of those files to get the channels back. Let us know....

In the meantime, if anyone else reading this has a Panny PZ/LZD81 if they can check which channel RTE is on for their area, I'd be grateful.

Cheers, Astro.

GadgetGeek

astrofluff wrote: »

Gadget Geek, what channel are you getting that on?

I'm off Greystones and (think) it's Channel 52...if it is the same channel I might use one of those files to get the channels back. Let us know....

In the meantime, if anyone else reading this has a Panny PZ/LZD81 if they can check which channel RTE is on for their area, I'd be grateful.

Cheers, Astro.

Unfortunately in your case it's channel 45, it was just a coincidence that keithoh's file that he saved from Mt Leinster was exactly what I was looking for in Spur hill. See list

.

For the record my PZ81B

Note the PZ81B file will work for the TH42PZ81B, TH46PZ81B & TH50PZ81B. But not the LZ range.

Charlie-Bravo

GadgetGeek wrote: »

Unfortunately in your case it's channel 45, it was just a coincidence that keithoh's file that he saved from Mt Leinster was exactly what I was looking for in Spur hill. See list

.
QUOTE]

Cheers GG, from that list I would need a file from anyone receiving from Truskmore, Greystones, Knockmoyle or Suir Valley....anyone got one here?!

Finne1993

Try to re-tune now, I think RTENL have changed the service type again, all 9 channels from Kippure and Three Rock are coming through on a search on my Panasonic PX80 (obviously I have no video on the TV stations). Thats typical and theres me after ordering a French TNT HD MPEG4 Panasonic 32" over the Freesat one!!
Ah when will they stop messing about with these tests and just get on with the launch!!

The_Conductor

Finne1993 wrote: »

Try to re-tune now, I think RTENL have changed the service type again, all 9 channels from Kippure and Three Rock are coming through on a search on my Panasonic PX80 (obviously I have no video on the TV stations). Thats typical and theres me after ordering a French TNT HD MPEG4 Panasonic 32" over the Freesat one!!
Ah when will they stop messing about with these tests and just get on with the launch!!

I've lost digital broadcasts on 2 different Sony's- a W and an U series. Message is 'no service defined'- its picking up the 9 channels ok though.

As an aside- analogue transmission strength from 3Rock has increased about 6 fold.

peadar99

Did a manual retune from Clermont Carn for Channel 53, and the 4 tv channels are back now. [on a Panasonic TX32-LZD81]

[EDIT:]

I saved down the channel list to an SD card just in case [not going to get caught like that again!], and then did a full scan to try and order the tv channels before the radio stations, which worked ok for me.
It did appear to have left out the 4 ROI TV channels when I looked at the guide, but they reappeared when I went to the channel number [800-803], and after that they were there ok.

So the 9 ROI channels are there now, in order, from 800-808 [i.e. 4 tv, 4 radio and 1 test card]

Happy days...

Finne1993

smccarrick wrote: »

I've lost digital broadcasts on 2 different Sony's- a W and an U series. Message is 'no service defined'- its picking up the 9 channels ok though.

As an aside- analogue transmission strength from 3Rock has increased about 6 fold.

Just an update, a re-scan on Three Rock (CH54) now brings in only the radio stations, Kippure (CH61) still bringing in all 9 services however long that will last!
Just to add, no problems with a re-scan on a Samsung PS42B430, All services coming in loud and clear from both Three Rock and Kippure.