Can Astronomy Ireland really be considered an 'Astronomy club' anymore?

squonk

I happened to be listening to Alf McCarthy on Radio 1 last night. As an aside, he really got into the whole space thing with music and texts. I was enjoying the show until my jaw dropped. Someone sent in a text saying that anyone who saw the ISS or Shuttle this evening should email iss@astronomy.ie with their sighting report!!! I'm not sure if this was an AIer doing this deliberately or someone well intentioned but clueless.

I'm pretty sure that iss@astronomy.ie is just a front email that subscribes the sender to the AI mailing list. After my experience ordering tickets from them earlier in the week I certainly don't doubt their ability to snap up addresses without any consent. What's more annoying is that this kind of tactic will do more to put the public off astronomy.

I was genuinely surprised at the response from friends of mine after I posted up some info on the shuttle lunch viewing times on Facebook yesterday. A lot of people were really interested, went out and had a look and realised that there's more to astronomy than looking at stars. Several described seeing the shuttle as 'very moving', which is pretty damn good I reckon. It's just so annoying that a real 'feel good' popular space event could get seized upon by AI like this. The management there really are a bunch of creeps.

If even 2 people in the whole country decide to buy a pair of binoculars and start following the ISS out of this and end up getting interested in Astronomy, it's a great result I think. Inundating the public with unwanted mails hawking overpriced technical equipment they know nothing about is pretty much going to kill all that goodwill.

Hauk

Bah, just don't tar all the good people at AI that are doing seriously good work.

If you've taken the effort to type up a reply on a public forum, then there should be no hassle dropping them an e-mail.

I've nothing to do with AI, and don't really care what they do because I get everything I need from the internet and from friends. But I do know that they are doing valuable stuff for the astronomy community like organising lectures and stuff.

As I've said, I have had very little dealings with AI, only that I bought my telescope from them. I went elsewhere for everything else. I do receive their e-mails, because I signed up for them.

There's a lot of energy here being wasted on being all gung-ho and ho-hum, which I feel could be better channeled into something positive.

So why not open a dialogue?

Hauk

Slow Motion

Hauk wrote: »

Bah, just don't tar all the good people at AI that are doing seriously good work.

If you've taken the effort to type up a reply on a public forum, then there should be no hassle dropping them an e-mail.

I've nothing to do with AI, and don't really care what they do because I get everything I need from the internet and from friends. But I do know that they are doing valuable stuff for the astronomy community like organising lectures and stuff.

As I've said, I have had very little dealings with AI, only that I bought my telescope from them. I went elsewhere for everything else. I do receive their e-mails, because I signed up for them.

There's a lot of energy here being wasted on being all gung-ho and ho-hum, which I feel could be better channeled into something positive.

So why not open a dialogue?

Hauk

In fairness I think most of the ire being expressed on this thread is directed squarely at one particular individual.

eoinS

just to point out my story above was with regard to one particular person

i remember many people i dealt with in AI at the time who were decent skins who just loved Astronomy .....

squonk

Fair point Hauk and, for the record, I know there's decent people in AI and really don't want it to sound like I'm making a genralisation and tarring everyone with the same brush. I didn't want to imply that the general volunteers were anything other than as dedicated to astronomy as the rest of us.

and, yes, I'm talking about a particular person as well who deserves the comments. As regards dialog, fair enough but I think you could talk to this person til you were blue in the face and not get anywhere.

Hauk

Ah yeah, I think we all know who this individual is.

Hadouken!!

squonk wrote: »

If even 2 people in the whole country decide to buy a pair of binoculars and start following the ISS out of this and end up getting interested in Astronomy, it's a great result I think. Inundating the public with unwanted mails hawking overpriced technical equipment they know nothing about is pretty much going to kill all that goodwill.

Couldn't agree more. The response from the general public has been awesome but that will quickly fade if they are hit with the sales offensive.

Hauk wrote: »

Bah, just don't tar all the good people at AI that are doing seriously good work.

If you've taken the effort to type up a reply on a public forum, then there should be no hassle dropping them an e-mail.

So why not open a dialogue?

Hauk

I think most people who know about AI properly do realise that the staff/volunteers who work there are just doing their job. The sad fact is all decisions, big and small, are made by one person. I've had lengthy discussions with a lot of the volunteers there, lovely people with a passion for the hobby who have great ideas about what direction the club could/should take but they were afraid to give their opinions to the people with the power because they knew what reaction they'd get! That's not a club... thats total BS.

It all basically falls on deaf ears.

Hauk is right though, if people have views on the club/shop, they should e-mail them into AI. Or if someone from AI is reading this thread, why not join in the discussion and answer the critics. There is little point having a thread 6 pages long bitching about how s**te they are if thats as far as it goes...

IF AI were to become a proper club, with proper meetings and a proper committee voted in by its members, it could do wonders for the hobby. I've said it before, if thats the way it was run, i'd gladly join myself! The foundations for a great club are there, it's just a shame one persons inability to see the bigger picture is holding it back.

coylemj

AI will never become a club with a democratically elected committee for the simple reason that it is a commercial operation masquerading as a self-styled charity. As I said in an earlier post, it exists for no other reason than to provide a living for the individual we are all talking about.

To talk about 'one persons inability to see the bigger picture' is to completely miss the point - if you want to promote astronomy in Ireland via a proper club, then go join one.

Linguo

To me it's not missing the point, it IS the point...His inability to see the bigger picture beyond his owns selfishness means that he will always be stuck with a club that people cancel after a year's subscription and inevitably end up moving on to other clubs. His staff will always leave because they aren't able to contribute ideas to help the club and in the end he will have a few hangers on but not much else....a lonely way to live I think!

Hadouken!!

coylemj wrote: »

To talk about 'one persons inability to see the bigger picture' is to completely miss the point

How is it missing the point?? Like it or not, AI are the major source of astronomy related info for the general public. Take the recent shuttle launch... HUGE interest and if if you ask around, most people new to the subject heard about it "from the AI guy on the radio". AI's relationship with the media is second to none with regards astronomy exposure. They have the resources to do great things but can't because of one person, so that IS the point!

coylemj wrote: »

if you want to promote astronomy in Ireland via a proper club, then go join one.

If people are curious about astronomy, when they search the media they of course find AI before all the other clubs. If they have a bad experience like a lot of people do, the majority don't just go and search out another club, they just drop the hobby. So of course it's in all the clubs best interests what AI do and don't do. Sad fact of life but that's how it is!!

kiki

Hi - Ive been a member of AI for past few years, as of yesterday have decided I am going to leave AI and cancel my membership. I will go elsewhere.

My reason - I wrote to AI earlier last week complaining about the cost of the StarBQ event (40 Euro, 30 Euro if booking early) and noted that in my opinion it was too much for the event. (Ive been twice to this event - It is a very enjoyable event but I think its price is too high)

Mr Moore did email back and said that he thought it was good value given the cost of all the telescopes that could the public could use at the event. - I was of the opinion that the members of the society donated their scopes / time for the event so was very surprised at this justification of the cost/price for the event.

Another justification of the cost of the event was the entertainment planned for the event (they will have fire jugglers this year) and also the catering costs.

I did make some further suggestions in response his responding email but to date have not received a reply to this.

My wife did purchase me a scope from A&S a couple of years ago and while I am happy with the scope - I have bought all my accessories overseas (as the prices being charged were too high in comparison to other shops selling the exact same kit).

My sister rang him about a year ago to complain about the prices in the A&S shop in Artane. She was also not satisfied with his response and in the end picked up what she was looking for by going to the UK.

That my 2c worth.

Kiki
Louth

squonk

Sell said Kiki! I haven't been to a StarBQ but it would be my impression too that the scopes are being donated by the members and, if that even wasn't the case, he runs A&S who seel the things so I'm sure he could organise a few models to be present for demo. It sounds like a nice little earner tbh. I couldn't see catering and entertainment costs amounting to €40/head. Crazy!!

Slow Motion

kiki wrote: »

Hi - Ive been a member of AI for past few years, as of yesterday have decided I am going to leave AI and cancel my membership. I will go elsewhere.

My reason - I wrote to AI earlier last week complaining about the cost of the StarBQ event (40 Euro, 30 Euro if booking early) and noted that in my opinion it was too much for the event. (Ive been twice to this event - It is a very enjoyable event but I think its price is too high)

Mr Moore did email back and said that he thought it was good value given the cost of all the telescopes that could the public could use at the event. - I was of the opinion that the members of the society donated their scopes / time for the event so was very surprised at this justification of the cost/price for the event.
Another justification of the cost of the event was the entertainment planned for the event (they will have fire jugglers this year) and also the catering costs.

I did make some further suggestions in response his responding email but to date have not received a reply to this.

My wife did purchase me a scope from A&S a couple of years ago and while I am happy with the scope - I have bought all my accessories overseas (as the prices being charged were too high in comparison to other shops selling the exact same kit).

My sister rang him about a year ago to complain about the prices in the A&S shop in Artane. She was also not satisfied with his response and in the end picked up what she was looking for by going to the UK.

That my 2c worth.

Kiki
Louth

If they charge people for looking through the scopes then how can they he justify this as a reason for the cost of the event?

Edit: Fire jugglers? Would that not ruin your dark adaption? Talk about counter productive

squonk

Slow Motion wrote: »

Edit: Fire jugglers? Would that not ruin your dark adaption? Talk about counter productive

LOL! That had occured to me too, and I was under the impression that your entry fee allowed you to look through the telescopes as many times as you want for free... ah, simple old me

kiki

Misunderstanding - they dont charge for looking throuth the scopes - the entry price covers all. The point is if the scopes are by and large donated by members and they also give their time etc. to let the public look through them then the justification for the cost of the event should not mention the scopes. I dont have a problem with AI using the event as a fund raising event but am a little surprised given the ecomony etc. that the price of the tickets is so high. The real cost to AI being the ground hire, catering, and entertainment (incl fire jugglers).

Slow Motion

kiki wrote: »

Misunderstanding - they dont charge for looking throuth the scopes - the entry price covers all. The point is if the scopes are by and large donated by members and they also give their time etc. to let the public look through them then the justification for the cost of the event should not mention the scopes. I dont have a problem with AI using the event as a fund raising event but am a little surprised given the ecomony etc. that the price of the tickets is so high. The real cost to AI being the ground hire, catering, and entertainment (incl fire jugglers).

I'm pretty sure someone else posted earlier on this thread that they were charging €1 per person to look through their scopes at one of their events!

kiki

Not aware of that. Im not defending them just want to be fair. Re. the StarBQ ASAIK they dont charge to look - the charge is on entry alone - can someone else comment on this.

If they did charge (per view) at an event I would be very disappointed and this would just reinforce my my decision to leave AI society anyway.

Slow Motion

ynotdu wrote: »

Big D I went to an event organised by Ai in the phoenix park,They charged a euro for a 30 second look through their telescope x 2,as there was two planets highly visable.

Look Moore has done a lot more harm than good in promoting Astronomy to people with a fledgling interest in the hobby,kids going to an event that live in areas with so much street lighting they miss nearly every event.
Ai would not let them even see the cosmo,s for free.
It would not surprise Me if Moore thinks He invented it!

kiki wrote: »

Not aware of that. Im not defending them just want to be fair. Re. the StarBQ ASAIK they dont charge to look - the charge is on entry alone - can someone else comment on this.

If they did charge (per view) at an event I would be very disappointed and this would just reinforce my my decision to leave AI society anyway.

I don't know if they still do but according to the above post they have done so at least once in the past!

Edit: 15 posts in 6 years, you're quite the chatterbox aren't you

kiki

Slow Motion wrote: »

I don't know if they still do but according to the above post they have done so at least once in the past!

Edit: 15 posts in 6 years, you're quite the chatterbox aren't you

Yes and 5 of 15 them this morning ;-) AI have got me mad, normally I Im the silent one.... Seriously just a result of forgetting my username password for several years.

Seanie M

Chipping in a bit more...

Those of you referring to AI as a 'club'... there is no club!!!

AI means 'artficial intelligence', something Moore is parading under to enforce Joe Public into thinking he is a charity and a club, blah blah blah...



Seanie.

Hadouken!!

kiki wrote: »

Not aware of that. Im not defending them just want to be fair. Re. the StarBQ ASAIK they dont charge to look - the charge is on entry alone - can someone else comment on this.

If they did charge (per view) at an event I would be very disappointed and this would just reinforce my my decision to leave AI society anyway.

The money to look through scopes is just for the normal events, like the IYA events recently. It's touted as a "donation" but isn't optional... lol

StarBQ is different, 40 euro covers it all :rolleyes:

Calibos

Can the likes of Seanie confirm the AI charging to view through scopes. Not that I don't trust people posting here but is this something you can confirm too Seanie being in the game a lot longer than most of us.

Charging at public outreach, I just find unbelievable. Its a joke right. They don't really charge at outreach do they??

Hadouken!!

Calibos wrote: »

Can the likes of Seanie confirm the AI charging to view through scopes. Not that I don't trust people posting here but is this something you can confirm too Seanie being in the game a lot longer than most of us.

Charging at public outreach, I just find unbelievable. Its a joke right. They don't really charge at outreach do they??

I'm an ex employee... can 100% confirm!

cruizer22b

Hadouken!! wrote: »

The money to look through scopes is just for the normal events, like the IYA events recently. It's touted as a "donation" but isn't optional... lol

StarBQ is different, 40 euro covers it all :rolleyes:

PMSL, I went to the Phoenix park and got hit for the non optional donation and even had to walk back to the car to get it ha ha.

Iridium

I've been an AI member for years, and this week I too cancelled my membership.

I am a former volunteer at their Phoenix Park events too, and yes I can confirm that "optional" donations of sometimes €2 were asked for. Not something I agreed with so I just used to leave the money box on the table and if people felt the need to contribute something, so be it. Every time they didn't it felt like a personal victory. Nobody was refused access to the telescopes when I was on the desk, contribution or not. The audacity of charging people to look at the sky was one of the major reasons I eventually stopped volunteering my time though.

Donations are not asked for at the Star-BQ, the €40 covers everything. However, the volunteers who turn up with their scopes for the public to look through do not receive any payment for their time and effort. I only went to the Star-BQ once, only got one burger and two sausages for my €40, and there was only about an hour of clear skies, most of which occurred when we were all in the GAA hall for David Moore's Universe lecture. I saw nothing through a telescope, and after about two hours I gave up and went home.

I believe the price of the Star-BQ is far too high. I mean it's only €8 cheaper than the annual membership fee. It might be something if it were cheaper for AI members, but it isn't. Nothing is. Your membership fee is nothing more than a subscription fee for their magazine. And at €4 per issue it's less than €1 cheaper than Astronomy Now - which has over twice the content and is a professionally produced magazine. The number of errors and typos in Astronomy and Space is really annoying.

And yes, the fire juggler seems like such a stupid, counterproductive idea. I'm totally baffled by it.

Calibos

Who gets the donations. The scopers or Mr Moore?

Breaktown

cruizer22b wrote: »

PMSL, I went to the Phoenix park and got hit for the non optional donation and even had to walk back to the car to get it ha ha.

I was a volunteer a few years ago and then it was an optional donation, I hadn't realised they're actually insisting on it now.

One time when I was collecting the voluntary contributions for a look through the telescope I got so annoyed at the whole thing that I started asking people to sponser me for a genuine charity event I was doing instead.

Linguo

Calibos wrote: »

Who gets the donations. The scopers or Mr Moore?

Chairman of course!:D

cruizer22b

Iridium wrote: »

I've been an AI member for years, and this week I too cancelled my membership.

I am a former volunteer at their Phoenix Park events too, and yes I can confirm that "optional" donations of sometimes €2 were asked for. Not something I agreed with so I just used to leave the money box on the table and if people felt the need to contribute something, so be it. Every time they didn't it felt like a personal victory. Nobody was refused access to the telescopes when I was on the desk, contribution or not. The audacity of charging people to look at the sky was one of the major reasons I eventually stopped volunteering my time though.

Donations are not asked for at the Star-BQ, the €40 covers everything. However, the volunteers who turn up with their scopes for the public to look through do not receive any payment for their time and effort. I only went to the Star-BQ once, only got one burger and two sausages for my €40, and there was only about an hour of clear skies, most of which occurred when we were all in the GAA hall for David Moore's Universe lecture. I saw nothing through a telescope, and after about two hours I gave up and went home.

I believe the price of the Star-BQ is far too high. I mean it's only €8 cheaper than the annual membership fee. It might be something if it were cheaper for AI members, but it isn't. Nothing is. Your membership fee is nothing more than a subscription fee for their magazine. And at €4 per issue it's less than €1 cheaper than Astronomy Now - which has over twice the content and is a professionally produced magazine. The number of errors and typos in Astronomy and Space is really annoying.

And yes, the fire juggler seems like such a stupid, counterproductive idea. I'm totally baffled by it.

I was at the Star-BQ aswell, €40 per ticket. Im part of another club the last 6 years and each year we get a FREE all we can Eat BBQ and maybe 5 or 6 free outings each year, If we stay over night the club pays for everyones hotel. And it costs 50 per year. All the money goes back to the club members one way or another. If I go to all events id say I get my 50 euro back 10 times over or more. A.I and David Moore are a disgrace IMO.

aten

Calibos wrote: »

Who gets the donations. The scopers or Mr Moore?

Where dose all the money go ? and do AI produce + circulate annual accounts?
Ignore the many " money streams " in operation like membership fees, " pay to view" fees and lecture entrance charges etc. the star -b-q must be the biggest money spinner, last year AI boasted an attendance of approx 500 people @ € 40.00 per person this equated to € 20,000.00 - not bad for a few hours work !