Being an Atheist in Ireland is a Cnut

SoupyNorman

Jakkass wrote: »

...and all that is in it.

Thanks a million for the Cancer and AIDS God, You're a sound fella.

Sam Vimes

womoma wrote: »

Whatever about Jakkass, at least he doesn't send childish private messages.

Sam, if you can't take other people disagreeing with you, and having the odd pop at your "personality type", you should get out more instead of spending all your time on the internet, disagreeing with people.

As evidenced in this thread, and the old one about the chair from argos, you can give it but you can't take it, and you wont back down until you have the last word. That is how children behave - obsessive and insecure.

Please stop wasting my time and your own. Don't PM me again.

I was actually just logging in to PM you to try to calm things down but now I find you posting about it on the thread still insulting me while making out that I can't take a joke. You called me mind numbing, pathetic and childish over a thread that happened months ago. That's not "the odd pop", it's not "disagreeing with me" and it's not a joke

You keep saying I have to have the last word but you brought it up months later and you won't ****ing stop! It wasn't even enough that I didn't reply to your PM, you're so desperate to have the last word you have to post about it publicly too. Just stop insulting me and we won't have a problem ok?

Edit: I promise I won't respond to whatever you post if you choose to post and that'll be the end of it as far as I'm concerned and then hopefully we can bury the hatchet

condra

Jakkas, one more thing, may I politely ask you for a third time, why are you an atheist to all other gods than your own? (Abrahamic?)

I'd really like to get an answer to this if you have time.

Cheers.

Sam Vimes

womoma wrote: »

Jakkas, one more thing, may I politely ask you for a third time, why are you an atheist to all other gods than your own? (Abrahamic?)

I'd really like to get an answer to this if you have time.

Cheers.

I've asked him that before. He rejects the idea that he's an atheist and he says that he believes that all religions have some truth but that Christianity has the absolute truth. I haven't been able to get more from him than that

Jakkass

Jakkass wrote: »

Finite time since Big Bang surely? 15 billion years is still finite. If the universe began expanding following the Big Bang surely there has also been a finite amount of expansion?

This assumes time to be a constant. Time is relative.

philologos

womoma wrote: »

Jakkas, one more thing, may I politely ask you for a third time, why are you an atheist to all other gods than your own? (Abrahamic?)

I'd really like to get an answer to this if you have time.

Cheers.

I'm not atheist to any God. Atheist means the disbelief in god or gods. Even if I do not believe in a particular religion, I still have faith in Christ. Meaning that while I don't accept that particular religion, I am still a theist rather than an atheist.

I believe there to be some truth in other religions, but ultimately I believe them to be mistaken and that Christianity is the ultimate truth to be sought for. It is through a matter of recursive checking that I chose Christianity. I felt that God was becoming apparent in my life, and that I had a strong explanation for the existence of the God of the Bible, where I didn't have such a strong explanation for the God of the Qur'an which I also looked into, or in the material that I had received from Hare Krishnas. I believed that God revealing Himself through humankind, and God interacting with human beings through a covenant relationship made more sense than to what other religions seemed to be offering. Likewise, when I was reading sections of the Qur'an I found that the case for Jesus of Nazareth's crucifixion was too strong and as such there could only be one truth concerning it: Either He was crucified or He wasn't. I believe that He was crucified and rose again. Christianity both appealed to me, and made real sense when I started to read the Bible. I also had a strong spiritual connection, and I talked to many Christians, and I still do about these spiritual experiences which they can also relate to. That would be the main reasoning behind it anyway. I'm open to looking at other religious material, but I'm pretty certain that the God of the Bible is the only true God.

weeder

womoma wrote: »

Whatever about Jakkass, at least he doesn't send childish private messages.

:rolleyes:

condra

Jakkass wrote: »

I believe there to be some truth in other religions, but ultimately I believe them to be mistaken and that Christianity is the ultimate truth to be sought for. It is through a matter of recursive checking that I chose Christianity.

Thanks for the response and good luck with that.

Surgefilter

Howdy!

Was linked here and thought I'd chime in on this. I read the first few pages, Read the middle bit, then the last few. I just picked up on an....um, jackass posting a load of nonsense. Didn't read enough to make a well directed response so sorry if this comes accross as a tad general and a "why I don't believe in christianity" sorta post. Which it will end up as I'm sure....

Firstly,

Why is it all the developing countries are moving away from Christianity? It seems the trend is that as countries are become financially better off, better education is implemented, people become better educated (duh! :rolleyes:) and generally then the graphs show that over time the belief in Christianity is lessened.
Going by this rule of....um...Surgefilter (:o), I'll give you an example: A man posts on a forum, then the thread which is posted eventually becomes a "Christianity vs. Atheism" kinda thing, all the while over 40 or so pages, some guy.....let's call him "Jakkass" for the sake of it, attempts to defend Christianity. Let's also say that the odd's of this Jakkass being correct are extremely small judging by the amount of people against his POV. Jakkass has the "internets" at his disposal, which contain many arguments which are both for and against Christianity (and other religions). Jakkass has obviously gone onto his stool and bent backwards to defend what he believes to be true obviously using the internets to support himself, all the while blatantly ignoring the posts which point out blatantly obvious rustholes in Christianity's bodywork, of which there are lots. This complete Jakkass has used the internets to only support his argument, but an educated Jakkass might realise that everybody he's talking to on boards.ie isn't wrong, and go and investigate the evidence against his religion and eventually post an argument which isn't completely one sided. Therefore using the collective "intelligence" and arguments presented accross the interweb, and taking all these opinions into account he forms an relatively neutral Point Of View.

Going back to my paragraph on intelligence we can clearly see that if your not using all these resources at your disposal, you lack something. One might think you might be a jackass or something if you also blatantly ignore all the "evidence" which is a google search away.

I mean, I love the original Mini's, but I wouldn't go and say that they are supremely reliable, immune to rust and extremely comfortable on bumpy roads. I still love them even though from what I just said they seem a complete POS. I know exactly what they are, and realise that they have their shortcomings. If you have looked around at a wide variety of the other religions and self-religions there are on offer, while accepting that your religion has SO many blatantly obvious holes & inconsistencies in it, then I'm sure that you are most definitely happy with it. But chances are you didn't and you're just defending what has been put into your brain through the generations before you. Your Daddy's POV isn't the only one, and it certainly isn't yours if you just grew up accepting it.



Few things which made me turn away from Christianity and use my own mind:

1)If God is all knowing, then he knows what has happened in the past, what's happening now, and what will happen. Therefore God created Satan in the knowledge he would turn evil. Basically God created evil.

2)If God is all knowing, all powerful etc. then he could make a being which had all his abilities but didn't know about the God that created him. Let's say that for the sake of argument that the Christian God is this God jr., therefore God jr. isn't all knowing (even though he thinks he is), and therefore the whole bible get's flushed down the toilet.

3)Why bother praying? God is all knowing, and knows what will happen, so if you pray for something you are basically saying you know better than God. Which you obviously don't if he knows all. So why bother enraging your God by calling him a Dumb Jackass through prayer?

If you also take a look at some of the studies done by David Fontana in his book "Is There An Aftelife?" (Which I've linked to, and is cheaper on amazon.co.uk and not.com....whoops), you will see that in NDE's, the "afterlife" presented by the people who experienced them comes back as fulfilling no preconcieved thought of the afterlife. I recall a test he did (or was part of?) which studied NDE's in the USA and India, where the main religion is obviously waaaaaaaaayy different, which also happened to be the two religions studied. Both NDE reports came back eerily similar.

Also, the book looks into the afterlife completely neutrally, and is THE best book on investigating the possibility of an afterlife I've ever read (And I've read MANY). Throughly researched, expertly written. PLUG PLUG PLUG. Please buy if your interested in afterlife investigation. You won't regret the book.

And. Jakkass here was saying he is willing to listen to all points of view and prefers discussion with agnostics because athiests will be one sided and big headed. Meanwhile, throughout the whole thread he goes being a big ignorant christian following his own stereotype of athiesm.


Finally, I will accept that "athiesm" (Used in it's broadest sense) leaves questions unanswered, but I don't go and slap a load of bodyfiller over them and call them God.

Recommended websites:
http://www.vexen.co.uk/
http://www.dpjs.co.uk/index.html

Recommended Reading:
http://www.amazon.com/There-Afterlife-Comprehensive-Overview-Evidence/dp/1903816904

Sorry. Gotta run, inquisition are on their way...;)

RB

philologos

Surgefilter wrote: »

Why is it all the developing countries are moving away from Christianity? It seems the trend is that as countries are become financially better off, better education is implemented, people become better educated (duh! :rolleyes:) and generally then the graphs show that over time the belief in Christianity is lessened.

You ignore the fact that Christianity is growing in developed and developing countries, examples are:
Developed - South Korea - 28% Christian and second largest amount of missionaries in the world
Developing - China - 54 million Christians, and rapidly growing amongst young intellectuals. PDN in the Christianity forum discusses the adoption of Christianity in Shanghai on a visit:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=59757473&postcount=132

Christianity globally is actually growing rather healthily. I've explained what I think of the decline in Europe already.

Surgefilter wrote: »

Let's also say that the odd's of this Jakkass being correct are extremely small judging by the amount of people against his POV.

That's like saying that I have more chance of being right as there are 33% Christians in the world, and there are 16% Atheists and Agnostics. Even I know that numbers have nothing to do with being right or wrong.

Surgefilter wrote: »

blatantly obvious rustholes in Christianity's bodywork, of which there are lots.

Such as?

Surgefilter wrote: »

Going back to my paragraph on intelligence we can clearly see that if your not using all these resources at your disposal, you lack something. One might think you might be a jackass or something if you also blatantly ignore all the "evidence" which is a google search away.

Despite being an above average student at school, and still doing pretty well at university. I don't see where you are getting this from, and I don't see how belief in Christ has anything to do with my intelligence at all.

Surgefilter wrote: »

3)Why bother praying? God is all knowing, and knows what will happen, so if you pray for something you are basically saying you know better than God. Which you obviously don't if he knows all. So why bother enraging your God by calling him a Dumb Jackass through prayer?

Phillippians ch 4, claims that we pray to receive the peace of God. Matthew 5 clearly says that God already knows our prayers before we come forward to him, so there is no point in long prayers.

Surgefilter wrote: »

And. Jakkass here was saying he is willing to listen to all points of view and prefers discussion with agnostics because athiests will be one sided and big headed. Meanwhile, throughout the whole thread he goes being a big ignorant christian following his own stereotype of athiesm.

I am, but I don't have to adopt these views to listen.

Overheal

Forget Ireland, being an Atheist just about anywhere is a cnut. Especially the United States, where just 5% of the population declares itself as Atheist, and 75% of the population identifies itself as Christian. In one study carried out in a Minesotta University, people find Atheists the least trustworthy people you can encounter, citing muslims as more trustworthy.

As for the Dollar and the Pledge of Allegiance, its come very recently to my attention that the line "Under God," and the motto "In God We Trust" were not introduced until the Cold War. Now of course you're seeing the big push to bring Creationism Theory into public schools. And if you look closely you will find religious items on public property, like the Ten Commandments in government buildings, which is a violation of our First Amendment.

One of the many tenets of Christianity as I am aware is to spread the word of god to as many people as possible. And over the years I have encountered my fair share of would-be missionaries :rolleyes: I don't go door to door or spread fliers around trying to get people to follow Atheism after all. "Don't call me, I'll call you". But the way they're going about it, of course, Christianity is gone viral, and I have a problem with the methods by which it is spreading. Most especially when it treads on my constitutional rights.

You can see the inverse of that in Ireland I suppose, where religion seems to be subsiding now that the church is no longer involved in government. However, theres still plenty of evidence left, like Good Friday laws and the like.

Sam Vimes

Also, apparently atheists are barred from taking public office or testifying on a jury in 7 states. I'd have to verify that though, I just saw it at one source and I don't base my beliefs on things that only have one unverified source


hmmm, seems the laws are still on the books but aren't often enforced:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination_against_atheists

but atheists still aren't allowed in the scouts.

witnessmenow

Upward Spiral wrote: »

My mam is up in my house for the weekend and it being Sunday morning, she tried to make me go to mass with her. I refused, using the old "but I'm an Atheist" reasoning to broach the subject. So off she went, noticeably indifferent to my proclamation of faithlessness.

She returned an hour later with some of her friends for tea and a Chocolate Kimberley in my kitchen. I went in to feed the dog and mam said to her friends "he says he's an Atheist, so he wouldn't go to mass with me". The other women laughed, and basically dismissed that such a thing existed.

I tried my best to explain my position on the whole religion thing, and even quoted Darwin. It had little effect on them.

One of the women is a real Jesus freak, and part of the parish brigade. She looked visibly shocked at what I was saying and didn't even crack a smile.

Do any of you experience such rejection of your views by family or friends?

There was a group of people in your house, laughing at your beliefs (or lack there of in their mind), you should really grow a pair and tell to get the f#ck out the next time

condra

Like Overheal said, being an atheist in USA is much different to being an atheist in Ireland.
That's why I initially disagreed with the OPs sentiments. We have it easy here as far as discrimination goes. In parts of America, people have to be keep their atheism in the closet for their own personal safety.

Húrin

Upward Spiral wrote: »

Do any of you experience such rejection of your views by family or friends?

They weren't rejecting your views so much as rejecting your proselytising.

Sam Vimes wrote: »

The part I'm saying he's trolling about is the bit where he says atheist beliefs are half baked and based on no evidence. That is demonstrably not true of atheism and equally demonstrably true of theism

Atheists who believe that the origins of the universe are entirely natural do not have evidence for this.

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

...and those who have thought it through, are aware of the inconsistencies, but believe out of self delusion, the worst of these go on quests to convert others, to bolster their own nonsence.

What about those who believe because they have thought of something that you haven't? Is such a thing possible?

Dave! wrote: »

There doesn't need to be... If there is evidence for something, you'll believe in it. If there's not, you won't. Why would you require evidence against something in order to 'not believe' in it? There's no evidence against fairies or leprauchauns...

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Remember that evidence is subjective because it depends on one's senses and ideology. A lot of people think there is no evidence for God; I think there is.

Sam Vimes

Húrin wrote: »

Atheists who believe that the origins of the universe are entirely natural do not have evidence for this.

A good point. I don't say that. My position on the matter is the only logical position, ie "I don't know" and that is the position of the majority of atheists

GLaDOS

Sam Vimes wrote: »

A good point. I don't say that. My position on the matter is the only logical position, ie "I don't know" and that is the position of the majority of atheists

Sounds more like Agnosticism to me

Sam Vimes

ScienceNerd wrote: »

Sounds more like Agnosticism to me

Atheism is the lack of belief in a God. I do not have any belief in any God, I just don't discount that it might be possible because we don't know everything about the universe yet.

It's not just a matter of either being an atheist or a theist, there are agnostic atheists who lack belief in God. There are gnostic atheists who assert that there is not God (note how one is making a claim and the other isn't), then there are agnostic theists who think or hope there is a God and there are gnostic theists who assert that there is a God.

Gnostic atheists are really as bad as gnostic theists because both are asserting something which it is currently not humanly possible to know for sure

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheism

My name is URL

Húrin wrote: »

They weren't rejecting your views so much as rejecting your proselytising.

I wasn't trying to change anyone's views or beliefs, just explain the 'why' behind my own

Sam Vimes

To be honest, in all these debates I am actually hoping to be convinced. I would love if there was a God and I would love if a theist could convince me. Unfortunately all I see is the same few logical fallacies and faulty arguments trotted out time and again. Then the theists call us evil and say they'll pray for us

Spear

Húrin wrote: »

Atheists who believe that the origins of the universe are entirely natural do not have evidence for this.

You mean there's something unnatural about the direct observations made by the COBE and WMAP probes?

musicmonky

hurt me
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atTSwau9fwM&feature=channel_page

O'Coonassa

Gazza22 wrote: »

give it a few years and it will all change. Hopefully the Catholic church and every other religious order for that matter, fades away.

Yeah but Paine and Tone and all of those boys were saying that in the 1790's. Get the schools out of the clutches of the Church like in a secular society and it might fade.

condra

One problem is, the church has launched a pretty fierce counter-attack. They've dug their heels in pretty deep in USA.

Acacia

womoma wrote: »

Wow, what is it with all the misrepresentation these days? It gets really tiresome having to keep saying "I never said..."
It also makes the person doing the misrepresentation you look like an idiot.

Stop with the pity parade, there. Make your point a bit clearer and you won't be called on it so.

Ever think that's the reason you're being 'misrepresented'? Tbh, it seems like you say something deliberately unclear so somebody else calls you on it so you can whine about being mis-represented instead of arguing properly.

womoma wrote: »

Or to be more frank, the systematic abuse of children by priests and nuns is over. That is a good thing.

See, you could have just said this instead of an inflammatory, throwaway remark like ''kids bottom would be safer'', which insinuates some sort of inherent link between paedophilia and Christianity/religion.

womoma wrote: »

I noticed that Jakkass put his thanks under your post there. This is the kind of pathetic croniism I was referring to earlier. I'm not here to represent atheists and pick on theists, I'm here making my own points, and I'll gladly put my thanks under a theists point if I consider it thought provoking, objective and reasonable.

What are you on about? I'm not even Christian/religious/ whatever you want to call it so I think you'll find there is no 'cronyism' here.

Maybe he thought my post was 'thought-provoking, objective and reasonable', perhaps and that's why he thanked it.

condra

< Wow dude. Way to dig up an old post just to dish out some abuse. I'm too tired to respond right now but suffice to say, I think you're being a twat.

javaboy

womoma wrote: »

< Wow dude. Way to dig up an old post just to dish out some abuse. I'm too tired to respond right now but suffice to say, I think you're being a twat.

Banned.

vibe666

d'oh. it's easy to get worked up and forget the forum mantra of "attack the post, not the poster". i've done it myself in the last when someone posted something i very strongly disagreed with.

also, I'd like to say "jebus!" after reading though 40 pages of posts over the last few days to try and catch up and now that I'm here I can't remember what I was planning on saying.

I've tried arguing with theists in other threads, but it never gets anywhere as they do not require any evidence to actually believe what they believe in, which I guess is why they call it "faith".

I'm not the best at arguing my point and I've been known to jump to conclusions that make sense to me but don't stand up to scrutiny by more educated people so forgive me for that if you will.

no doubt it will be picked apart by someone and cause another argument which seems to be the theme of this thread, rather than the OP's original statement that "Being an Atheist in Ireland is a Cnut" which after 40 pages of this thread I'm inclined to wholeheartedly agree with. :pac:

so to finish and no doubt ramble on for ages as I'm lso known to do (and probably inadvertantly quote mr spock at some stage)...

there is no certainty without proof. you can't come to logical conclusions about anything without proof or hard evidence and since it has been said that 'god' exists outside of our universe and we cannot even observe anything outside of it, we have no proof of his existence other than a book written by dozens of bronze age men playing chinese whispers for a couple of generations with little or no understanding of how our universe actually operates or what part our planet plays in it, who could quite easily have just made it all up to explain everything the best way they knew how to at the time*.

there is no absolute truth, there may or may not be a god, there is no way for any of us to tell 100% for certain that he exists in any form, or that he doesn't. either way it's outside of our realm of understanding.

theists may think you hear him or see him or feel him in some other way, but in reality you have no way of knowing this with any amount of certainty, or if you're just barking. don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that anyone is or isn't bonkers either way, all I'm saying is, that there's no way for you to know for 100% certain which one it is, any more than it's possible for any other theist religion (or atheists) to know for 100% certain that their view is correct.

*one thing I will ask though, is if Jesus was ACTUALLY going round doing everything the bible claims he did, why did nobody think to follow him around writing it all down as he was doing it instead of waiting until after several generations of storytelling to record it? surely if it was true, someone would have seen that it might be an important event at the time and kept a record, no?

EDIT: actually going for lunch and I'm not quite finished, but I'll post now anyway and let the frenzy begin withou me.

Acacia

womoma wrote: »

< Wow dude. Way to dig up an old post just to dish out some abuse. I'm too tired to respond right now but suffice to say, I think you're being a twat.

I assure you I was not trying to dish out abuse. That's not how I argue/debate with people. I was merely calling you on your post. *shrug*

I think we'll leave it at that.

Paddy Samurai

Upward Spiral wrote: »

My mam is up in my house for the weekend and it being Sunday morning, she tried to make me go to mass with her. I refused, using the old "but I'm an Atheist" reasoning to broach the subject. So off she went, noticeably indifferent to my proclamation of faithlessness.

She returned an hour later with some of her friends for tea and a Chocolate Kimberley in my kitchen. I went in to feed the dog and mam said to her friends "he says he's an Atheist, so he wouldn't go to mass with me". The other women laughed, and basically dismissed that such a thing existed.

I tried my best to explain my position on the whole religion thing, and even quoted Darwin. It had little effect on them.

One of the women is a real Jesus freak, and part of the parish brigade. She looked visibly shocked at what I was saying and didn't even crack a smile.

Do any of you experience such rejection of your views by family or friends?

Darwin did'nt see himself as an atheist , he saw himself as an agnostic ,theres a difference.

In 1879 a letter came asking if he believed in God, and if theism and evolution were compatible. He replied that a man "can be an ardent Theist and an evolutionist", citing Charles Kingsley and Asa Gray as examples, and for himself, he had "never been an Atheist in the sense of denying the existence of a God". He added that "I think that generally (and more and more as I grow older), but not always, that an Agnostic would be a more correct description of my state of mind."