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N4/N5: How should they be developed?

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 4,281 ✭✭✭ westtip


    SeanW wrote: »
    The biggest priority for the N4/5 must be the Longford-Mullingar DC. Ideally this would be Type 1 - if not M-way, from Mullingar to Longford, it could be type 2 dual afterwards bypassing Newtownforbes which is a mess. The N5 Longford Bypass is needed in any case because traffic in the town is mental, if the N5 were to be realigned towards the North as some on here have suggested, the eventual N5 Longford Bypass could be reclassified N63, as there is a new industrial link road connecting the N63 and the current N5 which could also be trunked. Would have to get rid of the speed bumps though.

    As to the actual realignment plan, it's been a while since I've travelled the N5 but I think the worst sections are West of Ballaghadeeran. So you would be talking about practically an entire rebuild.

    +1 absolutely right dc to Longford to Mullingar means once you get to Longford you are virtually in Dublin if its DC all the way. this must be the N5 priority. In fact I would go back to a post of mine sometime ago that DC to Carrick on Shannon and then a link road from Carrick to somewhere around Frenchpark is still the best execution for the N4/5 route.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭ Cool Mo D


    To be honest, I don't believe that dual-carriageway is the best answer to improving roads.

    At the moment, it's like there are two national road networks in Ireland - the improved motorway network, along with some new singe and dual carriageway, and the rest, which is mostly poor quality, badly surfaced and narrow.

    What is needed is a few things - not just for the N4 and N5 but for every primary (and secondary) national road in the country.

    - Bypass/realign past every single town and village on every national route with good quality single carriageway, and 2+2 dual where traffic requires.

    - Widen and straighten vast amounts of road, with the goal being that every bit of the national road network is of a high enough standard to allow anyone to comfortably drive at 100 km/h without fear of losing their hubcaps to a pothole, scraping their car off bushes, or the road slowing down when two trucks approach each other closely.

    - With straighter roads, safe overtaking should be possible along 90% of the road length, with few bends and sharp turns.

    - Ban new direct access from private houses to all national roads outside of towns. villages, and cities, which should be bypassed anyway.


    Now that the main interurbans (except for the PPPs currently planned) are almost done, bringing the less used parts of our network up to basic Western European standards should be the priority, rather than shorter, larger road building schemes.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 Sponge Bob


    Cool Mo D wrote: »
    To be honest, I don't believe that dual-carriageway is the best answer to improving roads.

    In general no. There are only six candidates for Dual after the PPPs that have been tendered

    1. Cork Limerick
    2. Sligo to Grange
    3. Galway Bypass
    4. Castlebar to Westpost
    5. Adare Bypass
    6. Longford - Mullingar OR Carrick On Shannon - Mullingar if westtips proposal on the N5 is accepted.

    maybe another 30km of short sections on commuter routes outside Limerick Cork and Dublin. Otherwise our Motorway/HQDC network has been built or has tendered. It is done.

    couple of 2+2 passing sections at 20km intervals on regionally important roads to shake off slow caravans etc and of course some decent laybys here and there, ideally along the 2+2 bits.

    That's it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 118 ✭✭ StephenM_smc


    Cool Mo D wrote: »
    To be honest, I don't believe that dual-carriageway is the best answer to improving roads.

    At the moment, it's like there are two national road networks in Ireland - the improved motorway network, along with some new singe and dual carriageway, and the rest, which is mostly poor quality, badly surfaced and narrow.

    What is needed is a few things - not just for the N4 and N5 but for every primary (and secondary) national road in the country.

    - Bypass/realign past every single town and village on every national route with good quality single carriageway, and 2+2 dual where traffic requires.

    I don't believe that single carriageway regardless of build quality can solve all the problems. The section of single carriageway just before the Mullingar bypass is quite wide, but last night there seemed to be about a mile long group of cars backed up behind a slow driver at the front. Traffic conditions didn't allow for any significant amounts of overtaking. If they could at least narrow the lines (They are very wide) and put in 2+1 like they have on the N17 outside Knock/Claremorris it would at least have some notable positive effect. I think eventual upgrade to dual carriageway is required. There'd be a fair bit of work in changing the type 2 dual carriageway the East side of Mullingar to motorway if they wanted to make it a through run of Motorway
    to Longford. Until they improve the Longford - Mullingar section I'll continue to leave the N5 at Tulsk and take the N61.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 Sponge Bob


    I don't believe that single carriageway regardless of build quality can solve all the problems.
    WS2 is a waste, the likes of the N5 Villa Carlos bypass should be retrofitted with 2+2 and future schemes built as S2 in the main.

    Grade separated like Villa Carlos but S2.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 596 ✭✭✭ Jayuu


    We really don't need 2+2 in most places in Ireland but single carraigeway is not really acceptable on most main routes either.

    I'm not a mad fan of 2+1 roads, mainly because of the poor central medians they put on them, but I think if its a choice between them and single carraigeway, I'd go for them anyday.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 Sponge Bob


    I think a lot of traffic is near towns. Were I to put stretches of 2+2 on the N5 it would be past Swinford past Charlestown and Past Ballaghadereen with Single S2 on the runs between those towns. On the N21 it would 2+2 be past Adare and past Newcastle West etc and on mountainy bits with S2 elsewhere. Offline of course.

    But I would grade separate and LILO the offline S2 such s the western end of the N5 from Castlebar to the Roscommon border which is (after all) less than 20 years old and not allow any building on it like we did with the 1960s and 1970s build S2 which was ribbonised into ruination with B and Bs and Country and Western emporia.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭ Cool Mo D


    Jayuu wrote: »
    We really don't need 2+2 in most places in Ireland but single carraigeway is not really acceptable on most main routes either.

    See, I think this attitude exists because of the very poor state of our normal single carriageway roads. With traffic levels of around 15,000 vehicles per day, a single carriage way is perfectly good, so long as it's wide, straight, and smooth, and doesn't have accesses and unprotected junctions scattered all over it. Most of the national roads like the N4 and N5 don't need dual carriageway, except in the vicinity of medium - large towns.

    Most continental countries do just this with their long-distance single carriageways, and it's an education to drive on them, to see what can be done.

    Especially things like giving towns ONE roundabout on the bypass instead of 7, and making use of priority T-junctions with traffic islands, and barriers to prevent crossovers at quieter junctions.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 Sponge Bob


    We did the numbers on this road in this thread. The N5 carries 5000 cars a day along much of its length and does not warrant 2+2 but rather a good S2 and selective 2+2 for overtaking at predictable intervals.


  • Registered Users Posts: 596 ✭✭✭ Jayuu


    I would think that from a safety point of view its better to limit the number of times vehicles have to cross the median which is where 2+1 has an advantage over single carraigeway. Its no conincidence that our road death numbers have dropped as our road network improves.

    And I would imagine the difference between providing single carraigeway or 2+1 is not huge nor would it require a large amount of extra land.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 118 ✭✭ StephenM_smc


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    WS2 is a waste, the likes of the N5 Villa Carlos bypass should be retrofitted with 2+2 and future schemes built as S2 in the main.

    Grade separated like Villa Carlos but S2.

    Where abouts is that section?

    What were the plans for this section of road. It is the strangest part of the N5 with the very wide central reservation and two lanes on the westbound side.
    http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=&sll=53.766623,-8.199803&sspn=0.004204,0.017166&ie=UTF8&ll=53.766623,-8.197753&spn=0.004204,0.013078&t=h&z=17


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 59,878 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011


    Villa Carlos = Charlestown.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,831 ✭✭✭ SeanW


    I was just thinking (seeing as I use the N4 from time to time) some of the single carriageway N4 is pretty wide. Would it be possible to (as a stopgap measure) convert parts of the existing N4 (and perhaps N5) to 2+2?

    I'm talking about wide sections where you could simply run a cable barrier down the middle and repaint the road with 4 lanes instead of two wide lanes plus hard shoulder?

    A lot of the problems on this part come from the peak loads of heavy traffic that can be slowed and turned into a convoy by one slow vehicle. Realistically there's little hope of any serious investment in the N4 and N5 corridors over the upcoming few years.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,831 ✭✭✭ SeanW


    N4 dual carriageway Mullingar Longford postponed indefinately.

    http://www.longfordleader.ie/news/Anger-as-N4-road-plans.6389964.jp

    I am disappointed, but not surprised. I saw this coming back when the programme for government was rejigged and the eco-whacko Greens got the road programme scrapped in its near entirity.

    Thank you John Gormless. One more reason to get all the bums out in 2012.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 Sponge Bob


    SeanW wrote: »
    N4 dual carriageway Mullingar Longford postponed indefinately.

    And the NRA knew that when they published This Bullsh1t in May saying it was not cancelled :(


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 115 ✭✭ 123easy


    at least they are getting the N5 Bypass soon


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,095 ✭✭✭ nordydan


    The finalised Mullingar-Roosky route corridor has been selected (as oppposed to the emerging preferred route):

    http://www.wccprojectoffice.ie/new/download_cat.asp?cat=12&dlCat=N4M2L.

    N4 Mullingar to Longford (Roosky) - Preferred Route Corridor Announced

    Posted By: Serena O'Connor - 7 Jul 2010

    Westmeath County Council and Longford County Council in partnership with the National Roads Authority have announced the publication of the Preferred Route Corridor for the N4 Mullingar to Longford (Roosky) Road Scheme. This scheme will upgrade approximately 52km of the N4 National Primary Route between the recently completed N4 Dromod-Roosky Bypass and the N4 Mullingar Bypass. The scheme is being designed to bypass Newtownforbes, Longford, Edgeworthstown, Rathowen and Ballinalack. It will improve road safety and will reduce travel times along this section of the N4.

    Maps showing the preferred route corridor and the Route Corridor Selection Report will be on public display at offices of Longford County Council, Great Water Street, Longford and the Westmeath NRDO Project Office, Culleen Beg, Mullingar from 7th July 2010 to 6th August 2010.Information will also be available for viewing on the Longford County Council web site www.longfordcoco.ie

    Those intending to undertake a development within the corridor of the Preferred Route in particular where an application for planning approval is required are advised to consult the Westmeath National Roads Design Office or Longford County Council.

    The National Roads Authority have indicated that due to funding restrictions the detailed design of the scheme is suspended.

    For further information regarding the scheme please contact any member of the N4 project team at the Westmeath NRDO.

    N4 Mullingar to Longford (Roosky) Preferred Route Corridor Drawings
    Also there is a Emerging Preferred Route Corridor Public Exhibition for the N4 Carrick-on-Shannon to Dromod Road Project over the next few days ( I cannot locate map online)

    N4 Carrick-on-Shannon to Dromod Road Project
    Emerging Preferred Route Corridor Public Exhibition

    PRESS RELEASE
    Leitrim County Council in conjunction with Roscommon County Council and the National Roads Authority (NRA) are holding a Public Consultation event in the Landmark Hotel from 2pm to 9pm on Tuesday 13th and Wednesday 14th July 2010. Information on the Emerging Preferred Route Corridor will be on display at the venue, where staff from Leitrim County Council, Roscommon National Road Design Office and Roughan & O’Donovan Consulting Engineers will be available to answer questions.
    The public exhibitions will be followed by unmanned displays that will be available for inspection until 13th August 2010 at:
    · Leitrim County Council Offices, Áras an Chontae, Carrick-on-Shannon, Co. Leitrim; and
    · Roscommon County Council Area Office, Bridge Street, Boyle, Co. Roscommon.
    A public consultation brochure and a questionnaire are available at the venues and your comments would be welcome.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,095 ✭✭✭ nordydan


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    N4 Carrick - Dromod, now you didn't exactly hunt for these Nords didya :D

    I spotted them.

    Where's the Emerging Preferred Route Corridor Map located in these publications?

    If its not there I demand an apology...:D


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 Sponge Bob


    nordydan wrote: »
    I spotted them.

    Where's the Emerging Preferred Route Corridor Map located in these publications?

    If its not there I demand an apology...:D

    It is there :D

    Go into my link for part two, note that there are pages of drawings .

    Page along to the series marked CS-06nn and the EPR is marked there with a dashed blue line and shall I make you coffee too ???

    The EPR appears to be online along the southern half and offline around the north of Carrick along the northern half if that is any help.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,095 ✭✭✭ nordydan


    I think you're wrong on this one. I believe that marks out the original CoS bypass, I think this scheme is an amalgamation of this & Carrick to Dromod. And as such the EPR is not displayed. Time will tell, I'll email LCC and see what they have to say


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 59,878 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011


    It SHOULD be online south of Carrick, the road from there to the Dromod bypass is all 1990s offline-built WS2 with little to no private accesses. Its even got a GSJ!


  • Registered Users Posts: 784 ✭✭✭ corm500


    A quick question on the emerging route corridor photo/drawing..the blue area that is above and below the prefered route (ie: not the road itself) goes over my folks house. Does this mean that they would want to purchase the house?
    :confused:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 115 ✭✭ 123easy


    corm500 wrote: »
    A quick question on the emerging route corridor photo/drawing..the blue area that is above and below the prefered route (ie: not the road itself) goes over my folks house. Does this mean that they would want to purchase the house?

    The scheme is still at Route Selection stage so you cant really tell. The route will be tweaked and moved many many times right through prelim design so your house may or may not be affected. The problem is if your house or land is not acquired you will receive no financial compensation even if it is really close to the road. Sometimes in such cases they buy people out sometimes not depends on the particular circumstances.

    Route Options:

    http://www.leitrimcoco.ie/eng/Services_A-Z/Roads/National_Primary_Roads/CorridorMap.pdf


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,095 ✭✭✭ nordydan




  • Registered Users Posts: 596 ✭✭✭ Jayuu


    nordydan wrote: »

    Would seem to be a fairly sensible route in that it necessitates only one crossing on the Shannon and avoids the railway line. It would be great to see this project completed as Carrick-on-Shannon is a major bottleneck on the N4. Are there definite plans to build this or is it just a case of bringing it to the design stage?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,145 ✭✭✭ Pete_Cavan


    After seeing the thread about the route selected for the N4 Mullingar to Longford, it got me thinking about the N4/5. I decided to resurrect this thread after being dormant for a long time as what I have to say would be more relavant to this thread that the N4 route selected thread.

    Anyway, I what I think should happen is the N5 be upgraded to HQDC. The current N4 west of Longford town should remain as it is and instead the N3 should be extended to Sligo. From Longford the N5 should take a more direct route to Castlebar, going south of Knock airport. The N3 would be extended as HQDC bypassing south of Cavan town, continuing west, bypassing Carrick-on-shannon on the northern side of the town and onto Collooney to intersect with the M17.

    There would be some reclassification of roads; the new M/N3 would go from Dublin to Sligo via Navan, Cavan and Carrick-on-shannon and existing N3 would become R roads, N4 would become an R road, new N5 would become N4 with M/N4 from Dublin to Castlebar via Mullingar and Longford. This would leave N5 free (for LOOR perhaps?).

    This would have the advantage of providing greater quality road coverage of the country with less km of road (eg. all the main towns in north Connaught, south-west Ulster and north-west Leinster all served by two roads, as opposed to three), meaning cheaper construction and maintenance costs. It would also provide greater economic benefits, Cavan Leitrim and Sligo need better roads to develop but the current situation of two roads serving this region means it is too expensive to develop an adequate road network. A lot easier to justify one road serving the entire region. The road to Castlebar would take a route further south of the existing N5 making it shorter also.

    Im not suggesting this should be done any time soon. After the M11, M17, M18, M20 and N25 are completed then the N3/N4 can be done. What do my esteemed colleagues of the Infrastructure forum think?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 Sponge Bob


    Not the maddest plan I ever heard of , running the M3 on a line roughly Kells > Virginia > Granard > Carrick and leaving the N4 completely as is but I defer to Westtips plans west of the Shannon..

    Traffic levels on the N5 west of the shannon do not justify any dualling other than overtaking sections in spots. Neither do traffic levels on the N4 after the road splits form the N5.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,161 Ren2k7


    I remember hearing a while back about a possible cross country route from sligo via cavan to dundalk. As someone who used the cavan to dundalk stretch a lot I can tell you it's badly needed.

    Anyway, im wandering off topic. The N4 should be built to HQDC all the way to Sligo. Sligo may not be as big as the other urban areas but it does serve as an important economic hub for the north west region and would benefit greatly from having a motorway to Dublin.

    As for the N5, build it to 2+2 standard and leave provision for upgrading to HQDC in the future.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 596 ✭✭✭ Jayuu


    I can't really agree with this idea. Given the upgrade of the A5 in the north to DC standard it would seem to me that it makes more sense that the M3 be routed to meet this north of Monaghan which would give Derry a proper DC quality link to Dublin and justify in some way the construction of the M3.

    I still think the N4 should be upgraded to at least DC (and preferably HQDC) standard the whole way to Sligo. I think this could be justified on the basis on giving a decent route from the North-West to the capital.

    As for the N5 while not saying that it doesn't need work I really wonder can a full HQDC N5 be justified. I think it could do with the following remedial work.
    - The Longford bypass should be completed around the town to the N5.
    - The road should be realigned to take Strokestown off the route. This really couldn't be that difficult give the way the road currently is.
    - A similar bypass of Ballaghadereen should be built.
    - A possible bypass of Castlebar although this might be harder to justify on traffic levels.

    In addition there probably could be some other work required. I'll admit that its been a long while since I've driven the N5 so I can't really comment directly on it's current state but I think the above would be enough.

    I also think that the N5 improvements could be done starting now even given our restricted financial situation as they wouldn't be massive costs involved. The N4 could be worked on in tandem.

    The M3 suggestion is probably unlikely to ever happen although I think once the A5 has been upgraded in the north there will be pressure to match it on the Republic side.


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