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Yeah_Right

Yellow carded players don't always go to a separate area though. I've definitely seen them sometimes sit on the bench with their team mates or use the stationary bikes to keep loose and other times take a seat on the half way line. It seems to vary depending on the competition.

Ben Bailey

Many thanks for all your replies.

I was intrigued by the manner in which temp suspension is managed and whether there exists any definitive guidance ; clearly not.

Does anyone believe that there could be a more gradual approach to sanctions ?

We currently have Free kick, Penalty kick, YC + Pk / Penalty Try, RC + Pk / Penalty Try.

Without wishing to further complicate things perhaps an extended Temporary Suspension of say, 20 mins for offences rated between YC and RC ?

Lost Ormond

Ben Bailey wrote: »

Many thanks for all your replies.

I was intrigued by the manner in which temp suspension is managed and whether there exists any definitive guidance; clearly not.

Does anyone believe that there could be a more gradual approach to sanctions?

We currently have Free kick, Penalty kick, YC + Pk / Penalty Try, RC + Pk / Penalty Try.

Without wishing to further complicate things perhaps an extended Temporary Suspension of say, 20 mins for offences rated between YC and RC ?

In the sport overall no there isnt but at higher levels where there is 4th/5th/6th officials there is a match official on sideline who can decide what they want. generally they sit with subs or even just beside the 4th official...

I dont see why there is a need for any more of a gradual approach to sanctions. Free kicks are primarily for technical offences such as too many players in a lineout, early push in a scrum and a dont see a need or want another tier between yellow and red. If committing an offence that is more than a yellow card offence or is a second yellow card offence i dont see why you should have a reprieve and potentially come on again. you may potentially been warned, committed penalty offences on multiple occasions and then been binned for 10 minutes. i dont see why you should get another break and potentially return to the pitch

MaybeMaybe

I think we just need to have something like this in every ground.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/671042429743710208?s=09

Yeah_Right

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Yellow carded players don't always go to a separate area though. I've definitely seen them sometimes sit on the bench with their team mates or use the stationary bikes to keep loose and other times take a seat on the half way line. It seems to vary depending on the competition.

Yes - it depends on where the Sin Bin area is, and even if it exists. It should be a defined location. There is no max/min size and it varies based on competition.

At grassroots level there is often no defined area. Players will often just stand on the sideline wherever they want, walk up and down etc.

Some refs unions adopt a unified approach, e.g. they should stand on the half-way line or behind the dead ball area and that becomes common practice. A ref should tell the teams before the game where he expects players to go when yellow carded as part of the pre-match conversations, if there isn't a defined area.

MJohnston

Kind of at a tangent to this topic, but has any consideration ever been given to how much injury risk is created by having an active player sit stop for 10 minutes and then return to activity?

sydthebeat

MJohnston wrote: »

Kind of at a tangent to this topic, but has any consideration ever been given to how much injury risk is created by having an active player sit stop for 10 minutes and then return to activity?

what do you think happens at half time??

MJohnston

sydthebeat wrote: »

what do you think happens at half time??

I’d imagine a lot of cool down stretches happen. I can’t imagine, at a professional level anyway, that they’re just chilling for ten minutes.

sydthebeat

MJohnston wrote: »

I’d imagine a lot of cool down stretches happen. I can’t imagine, at a professional level anyway, that they’re just chilling for ten minutes.

there is actually far more simple rest for the players, mostly seated... occasional rubs from physios etc

they dont spend the 15 minute half time break in motion and stretching.

but essentially the point is theres nothing different in what players do at half time than what a sin binned player is capable of / allowed to do.

ive even seen some sin bin players on a bike machine.

Ben Bailey

Lost Ormond wrote: »

In the sport overall no there isnt but at higher levels where there is 4th/5th/6th officials there is a match official on sideline who can decide what they want. generally they sit with subs or even just beside the 4th official...

I dont see why there is a need for any more of a gradual approach to sanctions. Free kicks are primarily for technical offences such as too many players in a lineout, early push in a scrum and a dont see a need or want another tier between yellow and red. If committing an offence that is more than a yellow card offence or is a second yellow card offence i dont see why you should have a reprieve and potentially come on again. you may potentially been warned, committed penalty offences on multiple occasions and then been binned for 10 minutes. i dont see why you should get another break and potentially return to the pitch

It seems to me that the underlying rationale behind the sometimes lengthy considerations between the match officials regarding sanctionable offences is an awareness of the considerable gap between YC and RC. It might assist match officials to have a middle ground sanction.
We've all witnessed striking discrepancies in interpretation by experienced officials.

Losty Dublin

Ben Bailey wrote: »

It seems to me that the underlying rationale behind the sometimes lengthy considerations between the match officials regarding sanctionable offences is an awareness of the considerable gap between YC and RC. It might assist match officials to have a middle ground sanction.
We've all witnessed striking discrepancies in interpretation by experienced officials.

Yellow card is the middle ground though, and one that works well for all concerned from Mini's through schools and up to International games. Granted some calls will appear unclear at times to us but all things being equal we are talking about a call that is made by up to 4 experienced officials, all who have video playback to aid them. I can't see any benefit in having another card that may be used to remove players temporarily from the game beyond that of Yellow.

Lost Ormond

Ben Bailey wrote: »

It seems to me that the underlying rationale behind the sometimes lengthy considerations between the match officials regarding sanctionable offences is an awareness of the considerable gap between YC and RC. It might assist match officials to have a middle ground sanction.
We've all witnessed striking discrepancies in interpretation by experienced officials.

A yellow is a middle ground though. You have penalty, penalty and yellow, penalty and red.
There will always be discrepancies in interpretation on many issues even by most experienced officials as 1 theyre humans and 2 thats part of the game

Lost Ormond

Ben Bailey wrote: »

It seems to me that the underlying rationale behind the sometimes lengthy considerations between the match officials regarding sanctionable offences is an awareness of the considerable gap between YC and RC. It might assist match officials to have a middle ground sanction.
We've all witnessed striking discrepancies in interpretation by experienced officials.

A yellow is a middle ground though. You have penalty, penalty and yellow, penalty and red.
There will always be discrepancies in interpretation on many issues even by most experienced officials as 1 theyre humans and 2 thats part of the game

dregin

Wasn't it the case at some stage that if a foul occurred in the act of scoring a try, the scoring team took the restart? Could have sworn that was a thing, but definitely went out the window last week.

It's a bit of an edge case but where someone gets a yellow with under 10 minutes to go are they allowed back on if there's a break after the 80 minute mark? I'm sure I remember someone coming back on after 80 minutes when his team was defending (and gave up a couple of penalties) which seems a bit lucky.

Bazzo

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's a bit of an edge case but where someone gets a yellow with under 10 minutes to go are they allowed back on if there's a break after the 80 minute mark? I'm sure I remember someone coming back on after 80 minutes when his team was defending (and gave up a couple of penalties) which seems a bit lucky.

Happened in the France Wales 6 nations match that went well over 80 mins a few years back I think

sydthebeat

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's a bit of an edge case but where someone gets a yellow with under 10 minutes to go are they allowed back on if there's a break after the 80 minute mark? I'm sure I remember someone coming back on after 80 minutes when his team was defending (and gave up a couple of penalties) which seems a bit lucky.

There was a game between France and Wales a couple of years ago where a prop was yellowed after 80 mins.... And ended up being able to come back on before the final whistle as the game didn't end until 100 mins

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/story-farcical-100-minute-france-15760803.amp

MaybeMaybe

dregin wrote: »

Wasn't it the case at some stage that if a foul occurred in the act of scoring a try, the scoring team took the restart? Could have sworn that was a thing, but definitely went out the window last week.

Are you thinking about awarding a penalty to the try scoring team? That's taken from half way line. Don't see it much though

Yeah_Right

Ben Bailey wrote: »

It seems to me that the underlying rationale behind the sometimes lengthy considerations between the match officials regarding sanctionable offences is an awareness of the considerable gap between YC and RC. It might assist match officials to have a middle ground sanction.
We've all witnessed striking discrepancies in interpretation by experienced officials.

I think I get what you're saying and I agree. A lot of the red cards these days are for bad timing or a slight mistake in technique. And these can have a massive impact on a game. I get why they are being sanctioned but pro rugby is entertainment and matches can get ruined by red cards.

In NZ they brought in a rule that a red card results in the team being a man down for 20 minutes then a replacement comes on but the sent off player can't return. I like this.

But I would also be happy to have another sanction where clear foul play (punching, kicking, gouging, biting etc) is a permanent reduction to 14. As long as both types of sending offs can result in suspension and fines then behaviours and techniques will change without ruining matches.

Lost Ormond

dregin wrote: »

Wasn't it the case at some stage that if a foul occurred in the act of scoring a try, the scoring team took the restart? Could have sworn that was a thing, but definitely went out the window last week.

Still is the case. If an incident occurs after a try has been awarded the ref can award a penalty on halfway against the infringing side.

Deleted User wrote: »

It's a bit of an edge case but where someone gets a yellow with under 10 minutes to go are they allowed back on if there's a break after the 80 minute mark? I'm sure I remember someone coming back on after 80 minutes when his team was defending (and gave up a couple of penalties) which seems a bit lucky.

Yes they can return if the sin bin period ends before the game is over

Lost Ormond

Lost Ormond wrote: »

Yes they can return if the sin bin period ends before the game is over

Might be a simple enough law to change. It's not a common occurrence but it seems like a team can gain an extra advantage by conceding a penalty when time's up.

Lost Ormond

Deleted User wrote: »

Might be a simple enough law to change. It's not a common occurrence but it seems like a team can gain an extra advantage by conceding a penalty when time's up.

Why does it have to change? What benefit is there to change the law?

Lost Ormond

Lost Ormond wrote: »

Why does it have to change? What benefit is there to change the law?

Because the only way a player can return to the field is a defending team concedes a free kick/penalty.
You're up 6 points, down to 14 men, clock is in the red, defending around your 22. Under serious pressure but no penalties conceded yet. Concede a tactical one and you're back up to 15 men.

Lost Ormond

Deleted User wrote: »

Because the only way a player can return to the field is a defending team concedes a free kick/penalty.
You're up 6 points, down to 14 men, clock is in the red, defending around your 22. Under serious pressure but no penalties conceded yet. Concede a tactical one and you're back up to 15 men.

And? The game ends when the ball goes dead next after the 60/70/80 minutes are up(depending on the level)

A team doesnt gain anything from conceding a penalty in this case.

sydthebeat

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Because the only way a player can return to the field is a defending team concedes a free kick/penalty.
You're up 6 points, down to 14 men, clock is in the red, defending around your 22. Under serious pressure but no penalties conceded yet. Concede a tactical one and you're back up to 15 men.

No your not.

Conceding a penalty is not making the ball dead, thus a sin binned player cannot rejoin

Losty Dublin

Correct Syd. The only way for the player to return is after the ball has been played dead or when time is stopped by the referee, which may well be to admonish the offending team. If a tactical penalty was committed a new yellow may well be issued, which naturally would negate any such benefit.

sydthebeat

sydthebeat wrote: »

No your not.

Conceding a penalty is not making the ball dead, thus a sin binned player cannot rejoin

So how do sinbinned players come back on? Is it only dead when the attacking team put it out for a lineout?

backcamslua

[Deleted User] wrote: »

So how do sinbinned players come back on? Is it only dead when the attacking team put it out for a lineout?

Lads ye weren't watching Wayne Barnes in action Wales V France from a number of years ago -Welsh prop (Samson Lee from memory) was yellow carded in 82nd minute -returned to play @92min -game finished around 100mins -and Barnes continues to ref at international level -I kid u not!

sydthebeat

Deleted User wrote: »

So how do sinbinned players come back on? Is it only dead when the attacking team put it out for a lineout?

its not 'dead' when the attacking team put it out for a line out off a penalty (as per your question)... that is the point.

think about it like this... the play between the penalty being kicked to touch and been thrown back in is considered to be still "open play"

thats why a penalty can be kicked to touch after the clock has gone into the red

otherwise a player can come back on when the ball goes dead ie the ref blows his whistle to stop the play for whatever reason ie knock on, foul play etc

sydthebeat

backcamslua wrote: »

Lads ye weren't watching Wayne Barnes in action Wales V France from a number of years ago -Welsh prop (Samson Lee from memory) was yellow carded in 82nd minute -returned to play @92min -game finished around 100mins -and Barnes continues to ref at international level -I kid u not!

see 12 posts up