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Laws Question? Ask here!

Alan_007_

Just wondering.If the ball is on the ground and you kick it over do you get the 3 points or is it play on?

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fryup

does the ref have to call "maul" for it to be a maul?

cause i didn't hear Garces call it in the final for that 2nd half peno

Former Former

fryup wrote: »

does the ref have to call "maul" for it to be a maul?

cause i didn't hear Garces call it in the final for that 2nd half peno

No, it's just to give extra clarity to both sides, no actual obligation to do so

CIARAN_BOYLE

What is the law about having your hand on the ground at scrum time?

I'm noticing a flanker today seem to be fully bound to the ground at all times. I didn't think that was legal but I might be mixing things up. Is it only props not allowed to have hand on the ground.

Squidgy Black

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

What is the law about having your hand on the ground at scrum time?

I'm noticing a flanker today seem to be fully bound to the ground at all times. I didn't think that was legal but I might be mixing things up. Is it only props not allowed to have hand on the ground.

Openside and blindside can have their hand on the ground, only their inside shoulder needs to be bound. 8 needs to keep their head in and both shoulders on the locks.

Props need to use their outside hand to bind to the opposition prop

sydthebeat

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

What is the law about having your hand on the ground at scrum time?

I'm noticing a flanker today seem to be fully bound to the ground at all times. I didn't think that was legal but I might be mixing things up. Is it only props not allowed to have hand on the ground.

Shure how can a flanker throw mud into his opponents face if his hand has to stay bound???

The Lost Sheep

WORLD RUGBY HAS re-emphasised existing laws around the breakdown in a bid to clean up an area of the game that has become increasingly dangerous for players and increasingly frustrating for fans.

In short, the guidelines will ask referees to more strictly penalise the following:

- Side entry into rucks
- Players diving off their feet into rucks
- Players handling the ball after rucks have been formed
- Tacklers not releasing and rolling away immediately after completing tackles.

https://www.the42.ie/world-rugby-breakdown-laws-5064084-Apr2020/

ionadnapóca

But there is no actual change in the law?

edit: jut checked. Same laws

The Lost Sheep

ionadnapokot wrote: »

But there is no actual change in the law?

edit: jut checked. Same laws

yeah no change. Just world rugby saying refs should be more vigilant on certain areas

The Lost Sheep

https://twitter.com/EnglandRugby/status/1260218112785424385?s=19

Muligatawney

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

https://twitter.com/EnglandRugby/status/1260218112785424385?s=19

Good decision. Will also stop commentators praising scrumhalves for "very intelligent play" for knowing a rule that everyone knows.

Losty Dublin

Muligatawney wrote: »

Good decision. Will also stop commentators praising scrumhalves for "very intelligent play" for knowing a rule that everyone knows.

"Try" again

The Lost Sheep

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1265928067769401345?s=19

Losty Dublin

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1265928067769401345?s=19

After 30 years the Free Kick finally returns from exile to regain significance in the modern game

Ben Bailey

If when a player is temporarily suspended (yellow carded) just before half-time can that player join his teammates in the dressing room or must he remain apart from them, even though the match clock is stopped ?

awec

Ben Bailey wrote: »

If when a player is temporarily suspended (yellow carded) just before half-time can that player join his teammates in the dressing room or must he remain apart from them, even though the match clock is stopped ?

He can join them in the dressing room.

Quin_Dub

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1265928067769401345?s=19

I don't get the law trial for a hooker having to use a "brake foot" ??

It's always been a penalty offence for a hooker to take both feet off the ground in the scrum hasn't it?

Or am I misunderstanding what a "brake foot" is?

Lost Ormond

Quin_Dub wrote: »

I don't get the law trial for a hooker having to use a "brake foot" ??

It's always been a penalty offence for a hooker to take both feet off the ground in the scrum hasn't it?

Or am I misunderstanding what a "brake foot" is?

The Brake foot is where the hooker's striking foot is forward. Not having that foot forward and behind the foot the hooker will use to strike doesn't help scrum stability

Ben Bailey

awec wrote: »

He can join them in the dressing room.

Thank you. It does seem logical that since the match clock (and therefore the 'sin bin' clock also) is stopped until the referee signals the resumption of play that the suspended player can leave the 'sin bin' to join with his fellows for a refreshing cup of tea or the traditional segment of orange and have the coaches both chastise and simultaneously encourage him before he resumes his place on the naughty step.

Why then have a 'sin bin' at all. Why does the temporarily suspended player not leave the playing area and sit with the replacements & coaches ?

Losty Dublin

Ben Bailey wrote: »

Thank you. It does seem logical that since the match clock (and therefore the 'sin bin' clock also) is stopped until the referee signals the resumption of play that the suspended player can leave the 'sin bin' to join with his fellows for a refreshing cup of tea or the traditional segment of orange and have the coaches both chastise and simultaneously encourage him before he resumes his place on the naughty step.

Why then have a 'sin bin' at all. Why does the temporarily suspended player not leave the playing area and sit with the replacements & coaches ?

The sin bin only covers playing time. Half time isn’t counted as playing time; as such she or he are free to join their teammates.

Don’t forget though, the sin bin is away from the technical area so the player and coaches are out of contact for the duration, so there is some disadvantage besides the obvious numerical one.

Ben Bailey

Losty, my point seems to have lost.

If ;

Player A is temporarily suspended after 10 minutes of play & he is sent to the 'bin' where he can have no contact with his teammates or coaches until he rejoins play or is substituted.

Player B is temporarily suspended after 35 minutes play & he is sent to the 'bin' for 5 minutes, then rejoins his teammates and coaches for halftime, then he goes back to the 'bin' for the final 5 minutes of his suspension.

It seems clear that the intention of temporary suspension includes separating / isolating the player suspended and that intention is nullified in the case of Player B.

Lost Ormond

Ben Bailey wrote: »

Losty, my point seems to have lost.

If ;

Player A is temporarily suspended after 10 minutes of play & he is sent to the 'bin' where he can have no contact with his teammates or coaches until he rejoins play or is substituted.

Player B is temporarily suspended after 35 minutes play & he is sent to the 'bin' for 5 minutes, then rejoins his teammates and coaches for halftime, then he goes back to the 'bin' for the final 5 minutes of his suspension.

It seems clear that the intention of temporary suspension includes separating / isolating the player suspended and that intention is nullified in the case of Player B.

It isnt nullified. The punishment is a restriction from playing. The player does sit apart during game time but coaches can still talk to player on sideline etc during game if they need to communicate anything.

sydthebeat

Ben Bailey wrote: »

...

It seems clear that the intention of temporary suspension includes separating / isolating the player suspended and that intention is nullified in the case of Player B.

no, thats not the intention.

there is nothing in the law book which stops a player in the sin bin receiving instructions from a coach

coaches are suppose to remain within the technical area

its just happens that the sin bin area is usually at a remove from the technical area

[Deleted User]

Ben Bailey wrote: »

Losty, my point seems to have lost.
Player B is temporarily suspended after 35 minutes play & he is sent to the 'bin' for 5 minutes, then rejoins his teammates and coaches for halftime, then he goes back to the 'bin' for the final 5 minutes of his suspension.

It seems clear that the intention of temporary suspension includes separating / isolating the player suspended and that intention is nullified in the case of Player B.

If I may, as you know, a temporarily suspended player is required to remain in the Sin-Bin which is:

"the designated place outside the playing area within which a temporarily suspended player must remain" (see definitions)

I don't believe there ever was a specific purpose/intended consequence that the player could not be communicated with while in the Sin-Bin. Requiring an area to be designated as the Bin was always just an administrative thing to facilitate applying the suspension and keeping track of who was on/off, especially when you had props involved, where a team had to temporarily replace another position player to allow for scrums.

I believe you will see temporarily suspended players heading down the tunnel (where there is a tunnel) with their teams in the normal course at every level of the game. I don't think it's ever really been an issue.

I do remember NZ refs union decided to clarify that the laws would be applied as permitting the temporarily suspended player to rejoin the team over half-time, if the 10 minutes playing time of the suspension has not elapsed. I had a quick look at the IRB laws site for a clarification on it but couldn't find one. The laws are silent on it. I've never seen or heard of a ref attempting to keep a temporarily suspended player away from his team at half time though, or attempting to stop someone communicating with them.

edit: here's a link to content on the Wellington Rugby Refs website containing that clarification which was all I could find on a quick google but it definitely has been the subject of some discussion:

https://www.wrra.org.nz/coaching/wrra-directives/sin-bin-where-should-the-player-go/

Yeah_Right

Yellow carded players don't always go to a separate area though. I've definitely seen them sometimes sit on the bench with their team mates or use the stationary bikes to keep loose and other times take a seat on the half way line. It seems to vary depending on the competition.

Ben Bailey

Many thanks for all your replies.

I was intrigued by the manner in which temp suspension is managed and whether there exists any definitive guidance ; clearly not.

Does anyone believe that there could be a more gradual approach to sanctions ?

We currently have Free kick, Penalty kick, YC + Pk / Penalty Try, RC + Pk / Penalty Try.

Without wishing to further complicate things perhaps an extended Temporary Suspension of say, 20 mins for offences rated between YC and RC ?

Lost Ormond

Ben Bailey wrote: »

Many thanks for all your replies.

I was intrigued by the manner in which temp suspension is managed and whether there exists any definitive guidance; clearly not.

Does anyone believe that there could be a more gradual approach to sanctions?

We currently have Free kick, Penalty kick, YC + Pk / Penalty Try, RC + Pk / Penalty Try.

Without wishing to further complicate things perhaps an extended Temporary Suspension of say, 20 mins for offences rated between YC and RC ?

In the sport overall no there isnt but at higher levels where there is 4th/5th/6th officials there is a match official on sideline who can decide what they want. generally they sit with subs or even just beside the 4th official...

I dont see why there is a need for any more of a gradual approach to sanctions. Free kicks are primarily for technical offences such as too many players in a lineout, early push in a scrum and a dont see a need or want another tier between yellow and red. If committing an offence that is more than a yellow card offence or is a second yellow card offence i dont see why you should have a reprieve and potentially come on again. you may potentially been warned, committed penalty offences on multiple occasions and then been binned for 10 minutes. i dont see why you should get another break and potentially return to the pitch

[Deleted User]

I think we just need to have something like this in every ground.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/671042429743710208?s=09

[Deleted User]

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Yellow carded players don't always go to a separate area though. I've definitely seen them sometimes sit on the bench with their team mates or use the stationary bikes to keep loose and other times take a seat on the half way line. It seems to vary depending on the competition.

Yes - it depends on where the Sin Bin area is, and even if it exists. It should be a defined location. There is no max/min size and it varies based on competition.

At grassroots level there is often no defined area. Players will often just stand on the sideline wherever they want, walk up and down etc.

Some refs unions adopt a unified approach, e.g. they should stand on the half-way line or behind the dead ball area and that becomes common practice. A ref should tell the teams before the game where he expects players to go when yellow carded as part of the pre-match conversations, if there isn't a defined area.

MJohnston

Kind of at a tangent to this topic, but has any consideration ever been given to how much injury risk is created by having an active player sit stop for 10 minutes and then return to activity?

sydthebeat

MJohnston wrote: »

Kind of at a tangent to this topic, but has any consideration ever been given to how much injury risk is created by having an active player sit stop for 10 minutes and then return to activity?

what do you think happens at half time??