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MJohnston · 31-03-2021 01:03PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

what do you think happens at half time??

I’d imagine a lot of cool down stretches happen. I can’t imagine, at a professional level anyway, that they’re just chilling for ten minutes.

sydthebeat · 31-03-2021 01:12PM

MJohnston wrote: »

I’d imagine a lot of cool down stretches happen. I can’t imagine, at a professional level anyway, that they’re just chilling for ten minutes.

there is actually far more simple rest for the players, mostly seated... occasional rubs from physios etc

they dont spend the 15 minute half time break in motion and stretching.

but essentially the point is theres nothing different in what players do at half time than what a sin binned player is capable of / allowed to do.

ive even seen some sin bin players on a bike machine.

Ben Bailey · 31-03-2021 09:23PM

Lost Ormond wrote: »

In the sport overall no there isnt but at higher levels where there is 4th/5th/6th officials there is a match official on sideline who can decide what they want. generally they sit with subs or even just beside the 4th official...

I dont see why there is a need for any more of a gradual approach to sanctions. Free kicks are primarily for technical offences such as too many players in a lineout, early push in a scrum and a dont see a need or want another tier between yellow and red. If committing an offence that is more than a yellow card offence or is a second yellow card offence i dont see why you should have a reprieve and potentially come on again. you may potentially been warned, committed penalty offences on multiple occasions and then been binned for 10 minutes. i dont see why you should get another break and potentially return to the pitch

It seems to me that the underlying rationale behind the sometimes lengthy considerations between the match officials regarding sanctionable offences is an awareness of the considerable gap between YC and RC. It might assist match officials to have a middle ground sanction.
We've all witnessed striking discrepancies in interpretation by experienced officials.

Losty Dublin · 31-03-2021 09:55PM

Ben Bailey wrote: »

It seems to me that the underlying rationale behind the sometimes lengthy considerations between the match officials regarding sanctionable offences is an awareness of the considerable gap between YC and RC. It might assist match officials to have a middle ground sanction.
We've all witnessed striking discrepancies in interpretation by experienced officials.

Yellow card is the middle ground though, and one that works well for all concerned from Mini's through schools and up to International games. Granted some calls will appear unclear at times to us but all things being equal we are talking about a call that is made by up to 4 experienced officials, all who have video playback to aid them. I can't see any benefit in having another card that may be used to remove players temporarily from the game beyond that of Yellow.

Lost Ormond · 31-03-2021 10:06PM

Ben Bailey wrote: »

It seems to me that the underlying rationale behind the sometimes lengthy considerations between the match officials regarding sanctionable offences is an awareness of the considerable gap between YC and RC. It might assist match officials to have a middle ground sanction.
We've all witnessed striking discrepancies in interpretation by experienced officials.

A yellow is a middle ground though. You have penalty, penalty and yellow, penalty and red.
There will always be discrepancies in interpretation on many issues even by most experienced officials as 1 theyre humans and 2 thats part of the game

Lost Ormond · 31-03-2021 10:07PM

Ben Bailey wrote: »

It seems to me that the underlying rationale behind the sometimes lengthy considerations between the match officials regarding sanctionable offences is an awareness of the considerable gap between YC and RC. It might assist match officials to have a middle ground sanction.
We've all witnessed striking discrepancies in interpretation by experienced officials.

A yellow is a middle ground though. You have penalty, penalty and yellow, penalty and red.
There will always be discrepancies in interpretation on many issues even by most experienced officials as 1 theyre humans and 2 thats part of the game

dregin · 31-03-2021 10:13PM

Wasn't it the case at some stage that if a foul occurred in the act of scoring a try, the scoring team took the restart? Could have sworn that was a thing, but definitely went out the window last week.

31-03-2021 10:26PM

It's a bit of an edge case but where someone gets a yellow with under 10 minutes to go are they allowed back on if there's a break after the 80 minute mark? I'm sure I remember someone coming back on after 80 minutes when his team was defending (and gave up a couple of penalties) which seems a bit lucky.

Bazzo · 31-03-2021 10:31PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's a bit of an edge case but where someone gets a yellow with under 10 minutes to go are they allowed back on if there's a break after the 80 minute mark? I'm sure I remember someone coming back on after 80 minutes when his team was defending (and gave up a couple of penalties) which seems a bit lucky.

Happened in the France Wales 6 nations match that went well over 80 mins a few years back I think

sydthebeat · 31-03-2021 10:34PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's a bit of an edge case but where someone gets a yellow with under 10 minutes to go are they allowed back on if there's a break after the 80 minute mark? I'm sure I remember someone coming back on after 80 minutes when his team was defending (and gave up a couple of penalties) which seems a bit lucky.

There was a game between France and Wales a couple of years ago where a prop was yellowed after 80 mins.... And ended up being able to come back on before the final whistle as the game didn't end until 100 mins

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/story-farcical-100-minute-france-15760803.amp

31-03-2021 11:34PM

dregin wrote: »

Wasn't it the case at some stage that if a foul occurred in the act of scoring a try, the scoring team took the restart? Could have sworn that was a thing, but definitely went out the window last week.

Are you thinking about awarding a penalty to the try scoring team? That's taken from half way line. Don't see it much though

Yeah_Right · 31-03-2021 11:48PM

Ben Bailey wrote: »

It seems to me that the underlying rationale behind the sometimes lengthy considerations between the match officials regarding sanctionable offences is an awareness of the considerable gap between YC and RC. It might assist match officials to have a middle ground sanction.
We've all witnessed striking discrepancies in interpretation by experienced officials.

I think I get what you're saying and I agree. A lot of the red cards these days are for bad timing or a slight mistake in technique. And these can have a massive impact on a game. I get why they are being sanctioned but pro rugby is entertainment and matches can get ruined by red cards.

In NZ they brought in a rule that a red card results in the team being a man down for 20 minutes then a replacement comes on but the sent off player can't return. I like this.

But I would also be happy to have another sanction where clear foul play (punching, kicking, gouging, biting etc) is a permanent reduction to 14. As long as both types of sending offs can result in suspension and fines then behaviours and techniques will change without ruining matches.

Lost Ormond · 01-04-2021 12:30AM

dregin wrote: »

Wasn't it the case at some stage that if a foul occurred in the act of scoring a try, the scoring team took the restart? Could have sworn that was a thing, but definitely went out the window last week.

Still is the case. If an incident occurs after a try has been awarded the ref can award a penalty on halfway against the infringing side.

Deleted User wrote: »

It's a bit of an edge case but where someone gets a yellow with under 10 minutes to go are they allowed back on if there's a break after the 80 minute mark? I'm sure I remember someone coming back on after 80 minutes when his team was defending (and gave up a couple of penalties) which seems a bit lucky.

Yes they can return if the sin bin period ends before the game is over

01-04-2021 12:52AM

Lost Ormond wrote: »

Yes they can return if the sin bin period ends before the game is over

Might be a simple enough law to change. It's not a common occurrence but it seems like a team can gain an extra advantage by conceding a penalty when time's up.

Lost Ormond · 01-04-2021 12:55AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Might be a simple enough law to change. It's not a common occurrence but it seems like a team can gain an extra advantage by conceding a penalty when time's up.

Why does it have to change? What benefit is there to change the law?

01-04-2021 01:36AM

Lost Ormond wrote: »

Why does it have to change? What benefit is there to change the law?

Because the only way a player can return to the field is a defending team concedes a free kick/penalty.
You're up 6 points, down to 14 men, clock is in the red, defending around your 22. Under serious pressure but no penalties conceded yet. Concede a tactical one and you're back up to 15 men.

Lost Ormond · 01-04-2021 02:48AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Because the only way a player can return to the field is a defending team concedes a free kick/penalty.
You're up 6 points, down to 14 men, clock is in the red, defending around your 22. Under serious pressure but no penalties conceded yet. Concede a tactical one and you're back up to 15 men.

And? The game ends when the ball goes dead next after the 60/70/80 minutes are up(depending on the level)

A team doesnt gain anything from conceding a penalty in this case.

sydthebeat · 01-04-2021 09:04AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Because the only way a player can return to the field is a defending team concedes a free kick/penalty.
You're up 6 points, down to 14 men, clock is in the red, defending around your 22. Under serious pressure but no penalties conceded yet. Concede a tactical one and you're back up to 15 men.

No your not.

Conceding a penalty is not making the ball dead, thus a sin binned player cannot rejoin

Losty Dublin · 01-04-2021 10:41AM

Correct Syd. The only way for the player to return is after the ball has been played dead or when time is stopped by the referee, which may well be to admonish the offending team. If a tactical penalty was committed a new yellow may well be issued, which naturally would negate any such benefit.

01-04-2021 01:55PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

No your not.

Conceding a penalty is not making the ball dead, thus a sin binned player cannot rejoin

So how do sinbinned players come back on? Is it only dead when the attacking team put it out for a lineout?

backcamslua · 01-04-2021 02:08PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

So how do sinbinned players come back on? Is it only dead when the attacking team put it out for a lineout?

Lads ye weren't watching Wayne Barnes in action Wales V France from a number of years ago -Welsh prop (Samson Lee from memory) was yellow carded in 82nd minute -returned to play @92min -game finished around 100mins -and Barnes continues to ref at international level -I kid u not!

sydthebeat · 01-04-2021 02:10PM

Deleted User wrote: »

So how do sinbinned players come back on? Is it only dead when the attacking team put it out for a lineout?

its not 'dead' when the attacking team put it out for a line out off a penalty (as per your question)... that is the point.

think about it like this... the play between the penalty being kicked to touch and been thrown back in is considered to be still "open play"

thats why a penalty can be kicked to touch after the clock has gone into the red

otherwise a player can come back on when the ball goes dead ie the ref blows his whistle to stop the play for whatever reason ie knock on, foul play etc

sydthebeat · 01-04-2021 02:12PM

backcamslua wrote: »

Lads ye weren't watching Wayne Barnes in action Wales V France from a number of years ago -Welsh prop (Samson Lee from memory) was yellow carded in 82nd minute -returned to play @92min -game finished around 100mins -and Barnes continues to ref at international level -I kid u not!

see 12 posts up

01-04-2021 02:16PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

its not 'dead' when the attacking team put it out for a line out off a penalty (as per your question)... that is the point.

think about it like this... the play between the penalty being kicked to touch and been thrown back in is considered to be still "open play"

thats why a penalty can be kicked to touch after the clock has gone into the red

otherwise a player can come back on when the ball goes dead ie the ref blows his whistle to stop the play for whatever reason ie knock on, foul play etc

Right so, back to my original point, I just think it'd be better that once 80 minutes are on the clock no-one can come back on. Since the only way the ball can be dead but the game not over is for the defending team to give away a penalty.

sydthebeat · 01-04-2021 03:21PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Right so, back to my original point, I just think it'd be better that once 80 minutes are on the clock no-one can come back on. Since the only way the ball can be dead but the game not over is for the defending team to give away a penalty.

the attacking team arent absolved from giving away penalties either.

01-04-2021 03:57PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

the attacking team arent absolved from giving away penalties either.

If the attacking team are ahead they'll kick it out.
If the attacking team are behind and give away a penalty then the final whistle is blown then no?

sydthebeat · 01-04-2021 04:08PM

Deleted User wrote: »

If the attacking team are ahead they'll kick it out.
If the attacking team are behind and give away a penalty then the final whistle is blown then no?

no.. the defending team, the team ahead, still have to tap the ball and then kick it dead.

the point im making is that youve said

the only way the ball can be dead but the game not over is for the defending team to give away a penalty

and i was just showing you that thats not correct.

in the case of Samson Lee coming back on in that game... france had a penalty and decided to scrum. If they had have chosen to tap and go then Lee wouldnt have been back on the pitch. So its arguable that it was the attacking teams decision which allowed the defender back onto the pitch.

i do agree that clarification should be given on the situation (maybe it already has?)... but i dont agree that there should be a blanket ban on a player returning just because the clock has gone red.

what if the winning team and down to 14.. need a TBP ... whats stopping them fouling and getting their player back on the pitch... knowing the losing team arent going to kick the ball dead?

It happens so rarely anyway.... i cant actually recall any similar situation

blackwhite · 01-04-2021 04:16PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Right so, back to my original point, I just think it'd be better that once 80 minutes are on the clock no-one can come back on. Since the only way the ball can be dead but the game not over is for the defending team to give away a penalty.

Not correct

If the referee stops the clock after giving a penalty then someone can come on. He might need to stop the clock to allow an injured player get attention, to speak to a captain, or for a number of other reasons.

blackwhite · 01-04-2021 04:27PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

It happens so rarely anyway.... i cant actually recall any similar situation

How often can you think of a situation where a team manages to retain possession for 10 minutes without turning the ball over, knocking it on, infringing at a ruck or getting knocked into touch. Never mind all of this being after 80 minutes of play with fatigued players.

It's a complete edge case that doesn't really warrant any change in the laws

Miley Byrne · 01-04-2021 04:32PM

Can a quick lineout be taken by the attacking team from their own penalty? Say for example the attacking team have a penalty in the corner on the 5M line. They kick to the corner where their wily scrumhalf (or anyone) collects the ball and immediately throws the ball to the waiting backline?

I assume a quick lineout is not permissible from your own touchfinder.

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