Germany putting the foot down

fergalr

Hans Joachim Fuchtel was paid €92,000 to represent 280,000 people in Germany's Black Forest region, while our TDs get more than €100,000 to represent 25,000 people each.
"My constituency is 280,000 people. For a member of the Irish parliament, it's smaller but the salaries seem to be much better," he told the Irish Independent.

Erm, Omg, there are only 100 US senators, and they only get paid e130k, and each has (on average) 3 million constituents, therefore the German MPs are way overpaid!


The main thrust of the 'Irish politicians are overpaid' argument here seems to be that the Irish TD constituency is smaller than the Germany MP constituency.

(Regarding the 'more than 100k' - from a quick google, the figures I find show that Irish TDs get between €100,189 and €106,567, depending on experience. (irish times). I'm not sure what the differing tax structures are (pension levy would make it more like 90k?), but it's not really much more than the 92K cited for German MPs.)


So really, Irish TDs seem to get paid around the same as the Germans, in what they actually take home.

The main thrust of this guys argument seems to be that the constituency of Irish TDs is smaller.
Well, so what?

Each TD has about 1/10 as many constituents as each German MP.
So perhaps he's saying Irish TDs should get paid 1/10th the amount? That'd be 10k each per year.

Obviously, that's ridiculous.

Because we don't pay politicians on the basis of how big their constituency is.
Just because that guy has 10 times as many constituents doesn't mean he meets with 10 times as many people per week to discuss their concerns, or works 10 times as many hours each week, or does 10 times as much work, or anything like that.


If he built an argument showing that he worked much harder than TDs, or did a much better job (and perhaps he does, I don't know) then, sure, he'd have a good point.

But as it is, there's no logical argument there.

I wonder what he'd think if an American was pointing out that each US senator had about 10 times as many constituents as each German MP, and so German MPs got paid too much?


I'm not saying Irish TDs are underpaid, or paid the correct amount, I'm just saying that this guy is not making a convincing argument by citing constituency sizes.

Also, as a result, I'm not sure this is, or perhaps was ever intended to be, constructive criticism.

Dannyboy83

Gruffalo wrote: »

I understand your contempt of FF (it is shared here) but no way would I give our sovereignty to anyone.

Regarding the private issue - if you mean kept out of the newspapers................how would we know if they had or not?
Perhaps they've done it in private numerous times?
I would be totally against keeping these things out of the papers.

Regarding soverignty, on 2 basic examples, same sex marraige and abortion.
I think these should be legal.
The EU would be representative of that.
Its unlikely any Irish government would be brave enough to implement it tho.

There are of course other issues where I would be against it, I would have to weigh it up.

Gruffalo

Zynks wrote: »

Are you talking about charity? Sure, between individuals that is fine, but when governments have to put big money for a similar purpose there is accountability, so secrecy (nor too much pride) doesn't really fit the situation.

Aint talking about money, if you have to criticise someone or offer them any advice you do it in a proper manner, not in a way which allows you to look all clever in the paper.

We took in around €50 billion from the EU (or should I say Germany to a large extent)...what do we have left to show other than an incredible amount of private and state debts and a few tolled roads? If I was a German person I would be annoyed to even contemplate new handouts of any kind.

I see you dont want to back up how much of the money came from Germany.

They know, and we know (except for you by the looks of it) that Germany might end up being the source of support we are increasingly likely to need. Would you feel offended if your bank manager tells you to sort out your messes before he lends?

If I was asking him to bail me out he would have the right, but not before then and not in the papers, in a manner which just seeks attention for himself.

I am more than happy to hear politicians from our European partners providing constructive criticism to our deserving government. :rolleyes:

Constructive? Pointing out a problem that everyone is aware of is not constructive.

x in the city

Germany will bail out Ireland with €0.00

Our politicians are doing sfa and earn way too much, Berties pension is probably greater than the German counceller lady ffs. and that swine is probably in the bahamas now.

axer

Gruffalo wrote: »

1. This clown is not giving us any info that is not in the public arena.

The information is in the public arena and we still haven't changed things.

Gruffalo wrote: »

2. Germany simply does not have the right to tell another sovereign state what to do. In case your memory is as short as theirs, they lost 2 wars and slaughtered millions of innocent people in an attempt to get this right.

WTF? I'm sorry neither Hans Joachim Fuchtel nor Angela Merkel were alive for any of those wars you speak of. So what in gods name are you on about?

Gruffalo wrote: »

3. We have not asked them to bail us out, if we do then they are entitled to a say.

They have no choice but to help countries like us because we are the idiots that could not manage our own economy which effects their economy.

Gruffalo wrote: »

4. They are in no position to bitch about giving aid i.e. the Marshall Plan, and ECB interest rates were adjusted in a manner unfavourable to Ireland to help their economy over the last 10 years.

They are not bitching - they are pointing out obvious problems that Ireland still has not addressed. Where are you getting this ECB crap? Ireland have received a huge amount of hand outs which the likes of germany has paid for and you bring up ecb rates? Do you really think that changes in ecb rates in any way caused the mess we are in today?

Gruffalo wrote: »

5. If he was interested in anything other than a cheap shot he would have corrected the factual error claiming that Cowen is paid 3 times as much as Merkel. This is just a typical German tactic, attack others to deflect attention from yourself.

Wow, why would he correct something that was in an independent national newspaper. He didnt make the mistake so whats the problem? You think that our national newspapers are always accurate?

Gruffalo wrote: »

Sure politicians and public servants wages and expenses needs to be sorted but we already know that, and we dont need a German clown to tell us.

We obviously do since we still haven't done anything about it. We are the clowns who cannot manage our economy. And less of the german ignorance please.

Gruffalo

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Regarding soverignty, on 2 basic examples, same sex marraige and abortion.
I think these should be legal.
The EU would be representative of that.
Its unlikely any Irish government would be brave enough to implement it tho.

But if other people disagree with you, I agree on same sex marriage not on abortion, and they are greater in number than those who want the change, why change? That would be undemocratic. Are you proposing some sort of dictatorship?

x in the city

At the end of the day

Germany is a well run country that doesn't need anyone's money.

Ireland is a screwed up country of our own (politicians) wrong doing.

Gruffalo

axer wrote: »

And less of the german ignorance please.

I am not German

Dannyboy83

Gruffalo wrote: »

But if other people disagree with you, I agree on same sex marriage not on abortion, and they are greater in number than those who want the change, why change? That would be undemocratic. Are you proposing some sort of dictatorship?

Not at all.

Its no different than voting for FG instead of FF.;)

Zynks

Gruffalo wrote: »

Constructive? Pointing out a problem that everyone is aware of is not constructive.

Just because he is stating the obvious doesn't mean the criticism is not constructive.

Just because we know about it doesn't mean it shouldn't be repeated over and over until something is done about it.

oscarBravo

Where did all the talk about sovereignty come from? A German politician expressed an opinion. How does the expression of an opinion dilute sovereignty? If a Brazilian politician expressed an opinion about us, would we be calling for his head too?

Dannyboy83

Zynks wrote: »

Just because he is stating the obvious doesn't mean the criticism is not constructive.

Just because we know about it doesn't mean it shouldn't be repeated over and over until something is done about it.

I think this may be the German approach with Ireland.

Other countries, you pull them aside and say "listen x,y,z, ...look after it, will ya?", they say, "Oh I will ya" and go away and do it

Ireland, "xyz, will ya?"
Ireland responds "Who tha FCUK do you think you are tellin me wat to do laike"? "I'll ****in do what I likes"

Ireland is like an indignant child that was abused for years and can't understand social norms:D, thinks it has a license to misbehave.

Rosser

Gruffalo wrote: »

How am I being prejudiced against Germany?

Did they not lose 2 wars slaughtering millions of innocent people in the process?

The Americans slaughtered the native Americans, the Brittish exploited millions through colonialism, Stalin was responsible for more deaths than Hitler and I could go on and on. As for your 'ask the Jews' comment, why not ask the Palestinians too?

Gruffalo

fergalr wrote: »

Erm, Omg, there are only 100 US senators, and they only get paid e130k, and each has (on average) 3 million constituents, therefore the German MPs are way overpaid!


The main thrust of the 'Irish politicians are overpaid' argument here seems to be that the Irish TD constituency is smaller than the Germany MP constituency.

(Regarding the 'more than 100k' - from a quick google, the figures I find show that Irish TDs get between €100,189 and €106,567, depending on experience. (irish times). I'm not sure what the differing tax structures are (pension levy would make it more like 90k?), but it's not really much more than the 92K cited for German MPs.)


So really, Irish TDs seem to get paid around the same as the Germans, in what they actually take home.

The main thrust of this guys argument seems to be that the constituency of Irish TDs is smaller.
Well, so what?

Each TD has about 1/10 as many constituents as each German MP.
So perhaps he's saying Irish TDs should get paid 1/10th the amount? That'd be 10k each per year.

Obviously, that's ridiculous.

Because we don't pay politicians on the basis of how big their constituency is.
Just because that guy has 10 times as many constituents doesn't mean he meets with 10 times as many people per week to discuss their concerns, or works 10 times as many hours each week, or does 10 times as much work, or anything like that.


If he built an argument showing that he worked much harder than TDs, or did a much better job (and perhaps he does, I don't know) then, sure, he'd have a good point.

But as it is, there's no logical argument there.

I wonder what he'd think if an American was pointing out that each US senator had about 10 times as many constituents as each German MP, and so German MPs got paid too much?


I'm not saying Irish TDs are underpaid, or paid the correct amount, I'm just saying that this guy is not making a convincing argument by citing constituency sizes.

Also, as a result, I'm not sure this is, or perhaps was ever intended to be, constructive criticism.

A very well made point. which suggests to me that the guy is just having a chep shot at Ireland because there is nothing constructive about his comments.

oscarBravo

I've already taken Gruffalo to task for his earlier comments - let it go.

Dannyboy83

yera, I don't think Gruffallo defends FF or agrees with them.
He just doesn't see that Germany have the right to criticse.
Its more of a high level objection I suppose.


Anyway, moving onward:

The original focus of this was..........if the Irish politicians refuse to reform expenses and payments (likely they will refuse to reform their pay), what can we legally do?

There is no political means for Germany to pressure them other than:
A) public humiliation until they get their act together
financial collapse of Ireland and EU bailout/IMF

Is there no intermediate step? (Assuming there will be no GE before our economy collapses)

turgon

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

There is no political means for Germany to pressure them other than:
A) public humiliation until they get their act together
financial collapse of Ireland and EU bailout/IMF

Is there no intermediate step? (Assuming there will be no GE before our economy collapses)

Threatening of the latter.

If it came to Germany raising questions about Irelands economy there would be questions of whether or not they are entitled to. However I would imagine the criticism they would level would be the same as the Irish people level at FF so nobody would mind overly.

Zynks

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

The original focus of this was..........if the Irish politicians refuse to reform expenses and payments (likely they will refuse to reform their pay), what can we legally do?

There is no political means for Germany to pressure them other than:
A) public humiliation until they get their act together
financial collapse of Ireland and EU bailout/IMF

Is there no intermediate step? (Assuming there will be no GE before our economy collapses)

Legally there is nothing anyone can do as far as i am aware. I think the outcome will not be them getting their act together. It will be more like a massive wave of protests and strikes that will result in the government quitting. Just my guess.

These guys don't know any other measures than increasing taxation to address shortfalls in income. I see no indication of changes of direction until people get fed up, and that might not take too long.

peasant

Just a tiny remark here:

The title of this thread "Germany is putting the foot down" is slightly misleading, to say the least.

One local German politician was in Dublin for Paddies day (what was he doing there in the first place?) and got a microphone shoved in his face ...so he said something with an Irish context ...bfd

One German newspaper wrote an article about the Irish economy ..well, yes, that's what newspapers do

Rest assured, most Germans still have difficulties with keeping Ireland and "England" apart, never mind worrying about how they could control our economy.

As for the German governement, they won't give Ireland any more or less attention than any other European country that is in danger of imploding and thus putting the EU (which they helped build) at risk.

Just stop over-estimating yourselves ...Germany basically doesn't give a damn about Ireland.

Dannyboy83

Peasant, we already examined this and concluded that they do care.

Here is the thread:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055509947


The fact is, they have to care.

They cannot bail out the A-10 countries.
But if they don't bail out Ireland, the Euro may implode.
Ireland, Brian Clow(e)n and Sean Fitzpatrick have helped to create a new iron curtain of 1st class and 2nd class EU countries.

Dannyboy83

Anyway, i guess the conclusion is that there is nothing we can do.
Apart from waiting for our fate.
Like people waiting for the firing squad.

At least I don't own a house anyway, HAHAHAHAHAHA:D

Gruffalo

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

yera, I don't think Gruffallo defends FF or agrees with them.
He just doesn't see that Germany have the right to criticse.
Its more of a high level objection I suppose.

Thank you Danny, that is pretty much it.

Anyway, moving onward:

The original focus of this was..........if the Irish politicians refuse to reform expenses and payments (likely they will refuse to reform their pay), what can we legally do?

There is no political means for Germany to pressure them other than:
A) public humiliation until they get their act together
financial collapse of Ireland and EU bailout/IMF

Is there no intermediate step? (Assuming there will be no GE before our economy collapses)

I am going to make myself more unpopular with this but:

We must not suggest that politicians have not taken a hit in pay. They have forgone the payrise they were supposed to get and they have been hit the pension levy. I am not saying that they are not still overpaid but they have effectively taken a pay cut, thanks to public pressure.

I think we would be better served attacking the expenses. These are ridiculous. Also the quangos must be merged or gotten rid of. And the most annoying thing for me is that if they are on some parliamentary committee then they get paid extra. This is a waste, it is their job and their elected duty to run the country and they are already paid for it.

Public pressure over the last number of months has led to some change, so before we go running to someone else we need to take action. Lets see what comes from this budget and if it is not right then we need to hit the streets, civil unrest, and force a GE if necessary.

Gruffalo

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Anyway, i guess the conclusion is that there is nothing we can do.
Apart from waiting for our fate.
Like people waiting for the firing squad.

At least I don't own a house anyway, HAHAHAHAHAHA:D

As I have said lets see what the election brings, take whatever nasty medicine we need to take and where necessary, hit the streets.

Dannyboy83

Gruffalo wrote: »

I am going to make myself more unpopular with this but:

We must not suggest that politicians have not taken a hit in pay. They have forgone the payrise they were supposed to get and they have been hit the pension levy. I am not saying that they are not still overpaid but they have effectively taken a pay cut, thanks to public pressure.

I think we would be better served attacking the expenses. These are ridiculous. Also the quangos must be merged or gotten rid of. And the most annoying thing for me is that if they are on some parliamentary committee then they get paid extra. This is a waste, it is their job and their elected duty to run the country and they are already paid for it.

Public pressure over the last number of months has led to some change, so before we go running to someone else we need to take action. Lets see what comes from this budget and if it is not right then we need to hit the streets, civil unrest, and force a GE if necessary.

While I agree with all of those comments, the one exception is the politicians pay.
Ther german article was "Refusal to pay for Irish Greed".

In this article, it outlines that the Slovakian Prime Minister earns 40K pa
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/nice-little-earner-for-ahern-as-he-nears-top-of-eu-pay-list-97017.html

So our Taoiseach's annual pay of 250k would probably pay a full years wages for half of the A10 countries for a full year.
Even more so, I think the greed of our politicians is the symbollic (shambolic) issue here.
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/td-brain-drain-theory-a-ridiculous-myth-1658174.html
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/only-two-in-21-volunteer-to-axe-costly-committees-1676078.html

Here Germany have helped us deal with the cost of borrowing by claiming they will help us if necessary:
http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/ireland-most-exposed-to-global-economic-shocks-1676022.html

Here is a good commentary I saw:

"
Our Orwellian scenario


Wednesday March 18 2009

I was trying to come up with a description of the current political/economic situation in Ireland when it hit me that one had already been written.
Although I'm sure George Orwell did not have Ireland of 2009 in mind when he wrote 'Animal Farm' in 1945, I think you will see it is frighteningly accurate:
"Somehow it seemed as though the farm had grown richer without making the animals themselves any richer-except, of course, for the pigs and the dogs. Perhaps this was partly because there were so many pigs and so many dogs. It was not that these creatures did not work, after their fashion.
"There was, as Squealer was never tired of explaining, endless work in the supervision and organisation of the farm. Much of this work was of a kind that the other animals were too ignorant to understand . . . neither pigs nor dogs produced any food by their own labour; and there were very many of them, and their appetites were always good."
Now, replace farm with Ireland, pigs with politicians, dogs with senior civil servants, and Squealer with any number of government spin doctors and read it again.
Tim Riordan
Milltown, Co Kerry"

It makes me wonder exactly what the Germans are really thinking.
They say this bailout will not be conditional, but I don't believe it.


If they could bail out the 6 struggling Eastern European countries for the same cost as bailing out the thick paddies whose politicians won't even cut their own exorbitant pay.
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/the-nightmare-of-a-new-iron-curtain-1658938.html

Dannyboy83

Gruffalo wrote: »

As I have said lets see what the election brings, take whatever nasty medicine we need to take and where necessary, hit the streets.

Yep, seems to be all we can do really,sit tight and wait for the Germans to invade:D
(only this time, it will be to liberate us)

Gruffalo

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

While I agree with all of those comments, the one exception is the politicians pay.
Ther german article was "Refusal to pay for Irish Greed".

In this article, it outlines that the Slovakian Prime Minister earns 40K pa
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/nice-little-earner-for-ahern-as-he-nears-top-of-eu-pay-list-97017.html

So our Taoiseach's annual pay of 250k would probably pay a full years wages for half of the A10 countries for a full year.
Even more so, I think the greed of our politicians is the symbollic (shambolic) issue here.
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/td-brain-drain-theory-a-ridiculous-myth-1658174.html
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/only-two-in-21-volunteer-to-axe-costly-committees-1676078.html

I agree that TD greed is a symbolic issue and I am not opposed to cutting their pay. My point is that you can take more money off them through cutting expenses and pay for parlimentary committees. For e.g. Paul Gogarty gets 20,000 Euro for heading an Education committee when he is already paid as a TD. Nuts, but I am all for cutting everything they get.


It makes me wonder exactly what the Germans are really thinking.
They say this bailout will not be conditional, but I don't believe it.

Exactly, the Germans have never lost their desire to have control. I actually like the Germans, and wouldnt mind spending time there, but I would question their political motives.

If they could bail out the 6 struggling Eastern European countries for the same cost as bailing out the thick paddies whose politicians won't even cut their own exorbitant pay.
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/the-nightmare-of-a-new-iron-curtain-1658938.html

As I have said we will have to see what the budget brings.

On your other post, dont assume that they will be coming to liberate us.

peasant

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Peasant, we already examined this and concluded that they do care.

....

The fact is, they have to care.

I think you're grasping at straws.

The EU, or rather the european central bank may or may not have to "do something", but "the Germans" or Germany on their own/off their own batt? ...forget it.

Nodin

Gruffalo wrote: »

we have a few bad months and they want to have a go.

The "few bad months" are the result of a decade of what might be most kindly called 'acting the bollocks'. As a result, we're not only going to feel the global recession, but possibly far worse than most.

We're neigbours to the most advanced states in the world, and haven't bothered our arses learning anything from them in terms of tax regimes, social equality etc. Nada, nothing. If some one now and again passes comment on it, its only to be expected.

Gruffalo

Nodin wrote: »

The "few bad months" are the result of a decade of what might be most kindly called 'acting the bollocks'. As a result, we're not only going to feel the global recession, but possibly far worse than most.

We're neigbours to the most advanced states in the world, and haven't bothered our arses learning anything from them in terms of tax regimes, social equality etc. Nada, nothing.

Valid argument, but just try talking to Germans about their mistakes. How would they feel if we attacked them in the press and without a proper argument - read Fergalr's comment earlier.

It was just a cheap shot.

axer

Gruffalo wrote: »

Valid argument, but just try talking to Germans about their mistakes.

Try talking to the germans about their mistakes that they haven't rectified. Which mistakes would they be then?