What are Germany's motives?

Dannyboy83 · 11-03-2009 12:52am #1

What did you feel about Christian Paul's remarks back in 2007 and what do you think about them now?

What were the objective of his comments?
He must surely have known that most Irish people did not live as he described, only the people at the top of the food chain.

I was speaking with my sister today via Skype, she lives in Germany.
She speaks fluent German and was telling me that in Germany, Ireland is in the media every second day, we are getting the worst reputation in Europe.

{* - skip here if you don't want to be depressed anymore * }

She said that the Irish Politicians are seen as totally corrupt and greedy, no difference to Bulgaria.
They are seen as money worshipping and have lost all German respect as they've come back to the EU with their cap in their hand looking for money, after rejecting the EU treaty.
She said that it was reported recently, that the government had effectively destroyed Irelands only shot at prosperity, they had wasted or pocketed the loot and betrayed Ireland.

My sister is not really living there long enough to know what German politicians themselves are like in Germany, i.e. if they are Natural Born Liars (and her partner is a German cynic so I wouldn't ask him

)

{* - Rejoin the text here * }

All these comments have got me thinking about what the German motives are.
Is it solely something to do with the Lisbon treaty?
Does it really bother them that the Irish politicans are corrupt?
Do they genuinely feel for the betrayal of the Irish people?

Ireland rebukes scornful German envoy

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David Sharrock, Dublin | September 18, 2007

Article from: The Australian
IRELAND is a coarse place with a sad history where the natives are obsessed by money. That, at least, is the view of the German ambassador to Dublin.
Christian Pauls earned a rare official rebuke from the Irish Government after he aired his opinions before a group of 80 German industrialists, many of whom were potential investors in the Celtic Tiger economy.
Mr Pauls poured scorn on Ireland's recent affluence and its Government, telling his audience at Clontarf Castle in Dublin that "junior ministers earn more than the German Chancellor" and that "20 per cent of the population are public servants" - neither of which is true.
He described the country's health service as chaotic, with hospital waiting lists that would not be tolerated elsewhere.
And he revealed his amazement that Irish doctors who were offered annual salaries of E200,000 ($330,000) to work in the public sector turned their noses up at what they called "Mickey Mouse money".
His comments, made in German and translated into English for the small gathering of Irish present, produced guffaws from the ambassador's countrymen but infuriated Gay Mitchell, a European parliament member for Dublin.
He was so alarmed by Mr Pauls' remarks that at one point he interjected, "Mr Ambassador, I am the next speaker", as a warning to him to moderate his comments.
But Mr Pauls ploughed on regardless, describing Irish history as "even sadder than Poland" and relating an amusing anecdote - one that he clearly regarded as a telling observation on contemporary Ireland.
He said he was at the National Concert Hall when an announcer appealed for the owner of a 1993-registered car to move the vehicle because it was blocking an entrance. "Of course, no one moved," Mr Pauls said. "All the Irish are driving 2006 and 2007 cars. For all I know, the car is still there."
He also said that tourists from the US had stopped visiting Ireland because they were sick of the incessant traffic jams.
Dermot Gallagher, secretary-general of Ireland's Department of Foreign Affairs, was ordered by Foreign Minister Dermot Ahern to issue a formal protest.
Government sources said Mr Gallagher had a frosty conversation with Mr Pauls late last week in which it was made clear that his comments were "inaccurate, misinformed and inappropriate at a public forum".
The event was to host members of the German Federation of Buying and Marketing Groups, representing more than 300 groups looking for business opportunities in Ireland.
Mr Mitchell said the ambassador's performance had been appalling. "In my view, he did a number on Ireland and the Irish." Responding to Mr Pauls's comments at the event, he told him tartly that his view of Ireland might have been different if he had been in the country during the years when it was having to manage poverty rather than its current wealth and success.
German embassy spokesman Reinod Herber said: "Maybe he misjudged the humour. I don't think he tried to insult the Irish people. My ambassador is a humorous man and maybe that humour was misunderstood."
The diplomatic spat comes as Irish leader Bertie Ahern faces more questions over his own finances during the 1990s when he served as finance minister.
Mr Ahern, the Taoiseach (prime minister), is to give evidence again this week in a long-running corruption tribunal amid signs that public opinion is turning against him over his explanations over how and why he received about $480,000 from wealthy friends in loans and gifts.

eoinbn · 11-03-2009 1:32am

At the time I felt he was right and right now I feel he understated the problem.

German has a right to be angry. They gave us billions of pounds/euro's when a billion meant something and we wasted it.
It's probably natural for it to happen and it reflects the lives of a lot of the people that caused it.
Poor kid->makes the big time->doesn't know when enough is enough->ends up bankrupt.
That's what happened a lot of the Irish developers and that's what happened the country. Lets hope that we can turn this around in the short-term, 15-20 years, so that there will be a few people that can remember what NOT to do.

Scofflaw · 11-03-2009 2:00am

I was working in Norway when the X case happened. There was a fair stream of people coming in with newspapers saying "what is this please? How can this happen in your country?". When I said "oh, she'll be let travel to have her abortion" they said "but it is not legal, so she will be arrested". I said no, some formula would be found whereby it would somehow not be illegal for her to go abroad without changing the Constitution. They goggled at me.

The northern Europeans are interested in what happens in other countries. They read about them, they take an interest. They also take the law very seriously. They don't really understand us, thank God.

cordially,
Scofflaw

P. Breathnach · 11-03-2009 2:20am

Scofflaw wrote: »

The northern Europeans are interested in what happens in other countries. They read about them, they take an interest. They also take the law very seriously. They don't really understand us, thank God.

How could they understand us? We don't seem to understand ourselves.

Pride Fighter · 11-03-2009 4:05am

The ambassador has been proven right. I knew it then and others now realise he was right, those with memory anyway.

Scofflaw · 11-03-2009 4:15am

Pride Fighter wrote: »

The ambassador has been proven right. I knew it then and others now realise he was right, those with memory anyway.

"What need you, being come to sense,
But fumble in a greasy till
And add the halfpence to the pence
And prayer to shivering prayer..."

cordially,
Scofflaw

Nodin · 11-03-2009 9:43am

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

She said that the Irish Politicians are seen as totally corrupt and greedy, no difference to Bulgaria.

As exaggerations go, its fairly accurate (the Bulgarian part is the exaggeration, the rest is spot on.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

They are seen as money worshipping

Der nail on der head, as they say in Hollywood German.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

and have lost all German respect as they've come back to the EU with their cap in their hand looking for money, after rejecting the EU treaty.

Well, in fairness the Politicians didn't reject the treaty, they just made a complete balls of getting it passed due to a mixture of arrogance and complacency.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

She said that it was reported recently, that the government had effectively destroyed Irelands only shot at prosperity, they had wasted or pocketed the loot and betrayed Ireland.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Is it solely something to do with the Lisbon treaty?
Does it really bother them that the Irish politicans are corrupt?
Do they genuinely feel for the betrayal of the Irish people?

They'd have to give a crap to feel for the Irish people, and I'd imagine they're more worried about their own. The corruption and incompetence would worry them, if they end up funding the kip with their Euros.

peasant · 11-03-2009 10:00am

Well, a good part of the motivation for reporting all the doom and gloom from Ireland would be ...naanaaneeenaanaah, I told you so.

For years the Germans stood slightly befuddled as the Irish economy exploded (with unheard of growth rates) on a basis of banking, services and some international investment while the German economy, mainly manufacturing based, proved to be solid but slow.

The Irish hat double figure growth and full employment, the Germans could just about muster two percent and a painfully slow reduction in numbers of unemployed.

The German voters were pestering the governement(s) ...why can't we be like Ireland? and the governement had to tell them that the Irish boom wasn't real and that it wouldn't work in Germany...nobody believed them of course.

Now, that the Irish house of cards has collapsed, you can't really blame the German media and officials for revelling in that fact to some degree.

Serenity Now! · 11-03-2009 10:33am

Scofflaw wrote: »

I was working in Norway when the X case happened. There was a fair stream of people coming in with newspapers saying "what is this please? How can this happen in your country?". When I said "oh, she'll be let travel to have her abortion" they said "but it is not legal, so she will be arrested". I said no, some formula would be found whereby it would somehow not be illegal for her to go abroad without changing the Constitution. They goggled at me

????
What has this got to do with Germany exactly?

Scofflaw wrote: »

They don't really understand us, thank God

I'd say the feeling between you and 'Norway' (in a thread about Germany!) would be mutual from what you've posted.

Fratton Fred · 11-03-2009 10:37am

I would say Germany's motives may be that they have pumped a lot of money into the EU (and seen a lot of benefit in return) but now there are still countries coming cap in hand (who have already received billions) at a time when Germany has it's own problems. the likes of ireland are supposed to by now be a strong economy and helping fund the development of the new members, but ireland looks as though it has gone back to the 80s.

In reality, now Germany has got over it's reunification problems, what benefit does it get from linking it's economy with the likes of Hungary? France is skint (and has never contributed that much to the EU, the UK are as wary as ever and Italy is...well Italy is Italy.

I wouldn't be surprised if the euro sceptics are gaining ground in Germany.

newname · 11-03-2009 10:48am

She said that the Irish Politicians are seen as totally corrupt and greedy, no difference to Bulgaria.
They are seen as money worshipping

We should be asking ourselves why our little country has a taoiseach earning more than any other EU leader. Why our politicians are earning such large salaries. Look at what our former taoiseach Haughey was up to creaming money from the state. Look at our last Taoiseach lovely Bertie.. his affairs were a little suspect too.

Is it any wonder germany and other countries look at us as they do.

The Irish electorate doesn't seem to demand wrong doings are delt with harshly enough. We tolerate all sorts of shenanigans and sit by as nobody is asked to resign or get sacked. If they go at all they head off with a 6 figure pension.

kmick · 11-03-2009 10:57am

Germany is a very ordered and sensible society and they cant understand why we are so chaotic in everything we do. In terms of corruption we are about the same as Germany (12)/Ireland (14)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index#CPI_Ranking_.282002.E2.80.932008.29

We laugh at the Germans because they wont cross the road in a rural area with no traffic if the red man is showing. They are amazed because we cross in spite of the red man even in heavy traffic.

So some civil servant slagged us off. Who cares. I heard a story about a woman in AIB on Stephens Green some years ago who slapped her child. A German woman in the queue said "Excuse me but in Germany we dont slap our children". The woman shot back "Yeah well in Ireland we dont kill our Jews." Lets just say we may be chaotic but we have a much prouder history than they do. Lets just ignore it - things will come around again.

Serenity Now! · 11-03-2009 11:03am

kmick wrote: »

I heard a story about a woman in AIB on Stephens Green some years ago who slapped her child. A German woman in the queue said "Excuse me but in Germany we dont slap our children". The woman shot back "Yeah well in Ireland we dont kill our Jews."

That woman should get in touch with Prof.Dermot Keogh in UCC. She'd learn how Ireland has treated its Jews and she wouldn't be too proud about it.

Off-topic, I know but another poster has brought Norway into the conversation for god knows why.

jimmmy · 11-03-2009 11:13am

newname wrote: »

We should be asking ourselves why our little country has a taoiseach earning more than any other EU leader. Why our politicians are earning such large salaries. Look at what our former taoiseach Haughey was up to creaming money from the state. Look at our last Taoiseach lovely Bertie.. his affairs were a little suspect too.

Is it any wonder germany and other countries look at us as they do.

The Irish electorate doesn't seem to demand wrong doings are delt with harshly enough. We tolerate all sorts of shenanigans and sit by as nobody is asked to resign or get sacked. If they go at all they head off with a 6 figure pension.

Hear hear. While our govt has screwed up here big time ( eg by raising minimum wage to its level where its now nearly 1.5 times that of our neighbouring island , by overpaying the public service and by messing up the propertry market with section 23/27/50 tax incentives etc ), all through the tiger years I knew our interest rates were too low...but were basically set by the germans to suit the germans.

If our interest rates / cost of borrowing money for property were 6 or 8 % instead of less than 3% in say 2004, then the bubble would not have happened, our banks would not have lent as much and we would not be in the difficulties we are.
The allies won the war for us, but we lost the peace.

grahamo · 11-03-2009 11:48am

jimmmy wrote: »

Hear hear. While our govt has screwed up here big time ( eg by raising minimum wage to its level where its now nearly 1.5 times that of our neighbouring island , by overpaying the public service and by messing up the propertry market with section 23/27/50 tax incentives etc ), all through the tiger years I knew our interest rates were too low...but were basically set by the germans to suit the germans.
If our interest rates / cost of borrowing money for property were 6 or 8 % instead of less than 3% in say 2004, then the bubble would not have happened, our banks would not have lent as much and we would not be in the difficulties we are.
The allies won the war for us, but we lost the peace.

The biggest economies in the EU are the German, French and UK economies. Of course they are going to look after their own interests which means they will set interest rates to suit themselves.
The massive injection of EU money Ireland received in the late 90's massively boosted economic activity here but it was always only going to last a few years which it has.
BTW I don't see what your trolling about the minimum wage and public sector workers has to do with the thread topic.
The Governments of this country have been screwing up for years and people continued to vote them in. I think people trying to blame minimum wage earners and the public sector are the people who will go out and vote the same govt. in again

jimmmy · 11-03-2009 12:02pm

grahamo wrote: »

The biggest economies in the EU are the German, French and UK economies. Of course they are going to look after their own interests which means they will set interest rates to suit themselves.

The ECB set rates to suit the mainland EC economies. My point entirely.

grahamo wrote: »

The massive injection of EU money Ireland received in the late 90's massively boosted economic activity here but it was always only going to last a few years which it has.

Our funds / handouts from the EC ( mainly Germany and UK ) has beneffited us for far longer than a few years....think decades

grahamo wrote: »

BTW I don't see what your trolling about the minimum wage and public sector workers has to do with the thread topic.

It was not trolling...I merely point out how the govt mismanaged our economy and allowed our cost base to get out of control, as pointed out by the German ambassador.i

grahamo wrote: »

The Governments of this country have been screwing up for years and people continued to vote them in. I think people trying to blame minimum wage earners and the public sector are the people who will go out and vote the same govt. in again

The minimum wage earners and the public sector only act in their own interests ; nobody can blame them. The govt are to blame for the fact they are paid so highly, compared to what other countries pay and our economic circumstances. Given ff ratings in the polls I think it unlikely they will be voted in again. Trouble is, the others may be just as bad if not worse on economic matters. As the editorial in the Sunday Ind. said last Sunday, the country needs a national govt to have the confidence to take the tough and unpopular decisions.

Communicationb · 11-03-2009 1:03pm

grahamo wrote: »

The biggest economies in the EU are the German, French and UK economies. Of course they are going to look after their own interests which means they will set interest rates to suit themselves.
The massive injection of EU money Ireland received in the late 90's massively boosted economic activity here but it was always only going to last a few years which it has.
BTW I don't see what your trolling about the minimum wage and public sector workers has to do with the thread topic.
The Governments of this country have been screwing up for years and people continued to vote them in. I think people trying to blame minimum wage earners and the public sector are the people who will go out and vote the same govt. in again

Why did that post recieve an infraction?

Scofflaw · 11-03-2009 1:05pm

peasant wrote: »

Well, a good part of the motivation for reporting all the doom and gloom from Ireland would be ...naanaaneeenaanaah, I told you so.

For years the Germans stood slightly befuddled as the Irish economy exploded (with unheard of growth rates) on a basis of banking, services and some international investment while the German economy, mainly manufacturing based, proved to be solid but slow.

The Irish hat double figure growth and full employment, the Germans could just about muster two percent and a painfully slow reduction in numbers of unemployed.

The German voters were pestering the governement(s) ...why can't we be like Ireland? and the governement had to tell them that the Irish boom wasn't real and that it wouldn't work in Germany...nobody believed them of course.

Now, that the Irish house of cards has collapsed, you can't really blame the German media and officials for revelling in that fact to some degree.

I don't think they are - they're genuinely shocked. The UK, on the other hand (if Serenity_Now will forgive me introducing yet another country) does seem to be indulging in a fair bit of "ha ha the dumb Paddies we knew it was too good to be true".

cordially,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw · 11-03-2009 1:08pm

Communicationb wrote: »

Why did that post recieve an infraction?

Posters are not to accuse other people of trolling in thread. If you think it's trolling, report the post. It's in the charter (which people have read, right?), and it stops "you're a troll, no you're a troll" round robins. Another rule is "if you have complaints about the modding, do it in Feedback/Help Desk".

moderately,
Scofflaw

nesf · 11-03-2009 1:56pm

peasant wrote: »

For years the Germans stood slightly befuddled as the Irish economy exploded (with unheard of growth rates) on a basis of banking, services and some international investment while the German economy, mainly manufacturing based, proved to be solid but slow.

Not really, any economist could tell you it's par for the course and has happened multiple times as an initially poor country starts to catch up with the richer ones. High growth in the catching up phase followed by slow growth after they've reached rich country GDP per capita levels.

Explaining why it works this way is more complicated but it's a well established phenomena.

Fratton Fred · 11-03-2009 2:24pm

nesf wrote: »

Not really, any economist could tell you it's par for the course and has happened multiple times as an initially poor country starts to catch up with the richer ones. High growth in the catching up phase followed by slow growth after they've reached rich country GDP per capita levels.

Explaining why it works this way is more complicated but it's a well established phenomena.

put simply, 6% growth in a small economy is a lot easier to achieve than 2% in an economy the size of Germany.

i think what may have pissed of the Germans as well, is that Ireland used the development money it received to gain what a lot of the EU states consider to be an unfair advantage over other states. the biggest gripe being corporation tax.

Fratton Fred · 11-03-2009 2:27pm

Scofflaw wrote: »

I don't think they are - they're genuinely shocked. The UK, on the other hand (if Serenity_Now will forgive me introducing yet another country) does seem to be indulging in a fair bit of "ha ha the dumb Paddies we knew it was too good to be true".

cordially,
Scofflaw

That is just an inferiority complex. The UK is too concerned with the problems it is experiencing to care too much about what is happening in Ireland. the only news reports I have seen of late about Ireland is regarding Anglo Irish, which considering the name is relevant.

Oh yeah, and the one about the Polish man with 22,000 speeding tickets:D

axer · 11-03-2009 2:33pm

Serenity Now! wrote: »

That woman should get in touch with Prof.Dermot Keogh in UCC. She'd learn how Ireland has treated its Jews and she wouldn't be too proud about it.

Exactly - the ignorance of some somehow looking down at and slagging germans about WW2 (many who were not alive during ww2) whilst they have some rosey picture about Ireland's history. Well I have news for them - our history aint that rosey.

I think for the germans it is like the story of the prodigal son. Ireland got its money and blew it away, went crazy for years and now needs some help whereas Germany looked after things and kept things under control but are now suffering because of countries like us that took risks. They should tell us to f**k off but they don't since they actually want to help us because they know it will effect them if they don't.

Scofflaw · 11-03-2009 2:35pm

nesf wrote: »

Not really, any economist could tell you it's par for the course and has happened multiple times as an initially poor country starts to catch up with the richer ones. High growth in the catching up phase followed by slow growth after they've reached rich country GDP per capita levels.

Explaining why it works this way is more complicated but it's a well established phenomena.

I think Jared Diamond explained it very simply. At base, it's the idea that in a poor economy, you can, for example, double the speed of delivery just by paving a road, or double the output of a farm by buying a tractor. Relatively cheap improvements, big effects.

By the time every farm has a tractor, and every road has been paved, the next improvements are more incremental - a bigger road, a better tractor - and more expensive.

By the time your agricultural sector is no longer economically important and everywhere is connected by autobahns, the cost of improving output by even 1% is absolutely enormous, because it needs to buy things like improved R&D facilities and upgrade nuclear facilities.

Given how backward Ireland was in the Eighties, our high growth rates once we started doing things right was hardly surprising. The same with China - I'm not sure why people think there's something special happening there, when agricultural output could double based purely on the breakup of collective farms.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw · 11-03-2009 2:38pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

That is just an inferiority complex. The UK is too concerned with the problems it is experiencing to care too much about what is happening in Ireland. the only news reports I have seen of late about Ireland is regarding Anglo Irish, which considering the name is relevant.

Oh yeah, and the one about the Polish man with 22,000 speeding tickets:D

Really? Here you go then: Results 1 - 10 of about 5,290 from telegraph.co.uk over the past year for irish economy at telegraph.co.uk.

cordially,
Scofflaw

nesf · 11-03-2009 2:39pm

Scofflaw wrote: »

I think Jared Diamond explained it very simply. At base, it's the idea that in a poor economy, you can, for example, double the speed of delivery just by paving a road, or double the output of a farm by buying a tractor. Relatively cheap improvements, big effects.

By the time every farm has a tractor, and every road has been paved, the next improvements are more incremental - a bigger road, a better tractor - and more expensive.

By the time your agricultural sector is no longer economically important and everywhere is connected by autobahns, the cost of improving output by even 1% is absolutely enormous, because it needs to buy things like improved R&D facilities and upgrade nuclear facilities.

Given how backward Ireland was in the Eighties, our high growth rates once we started doing things right was hardly surprising. The same with China - I'm not sure why people think there's something special happening there, when agricultural output could double based purely on the breakup of collective farms.

cordially,
Scofflaw

The one thing he missed on that explanation is that it's quite easy to see good areas to throw money at when only a quarter of farms have a tractor but it's extremely difficult to see which areas will give you the best results as you get closer to "international best practice". It becomes as much a problem of increasing difficulty in resource allocation as anything else. It's not just a problem of cost but one of information.

Fratton Fred · 11-03-2009 2:52pm

Scofflaw wrote: »

Really? Here you go then: Results 1 - 10 of about 5,290 from telegraph.co.uk over the past year for irish economy at telegraph.co.uk.

cordially,
Scofflaw

May I suggest growing a thicker skin?:D

ionix5891 · 11-03-2009 2:54pm

i laughed and then i cried as unfortunately they are correct

sigh ...

peasant · 11-03-2009 2:57pm

To answer the original question

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

All these comments have got me thinking about what the German motives are.
Is it solely something to do with the Lisbon treaty?
Does it really bother them that the Irish politicans are corrupt?
Do they genuinely feel for the betrayal of the Irish people?

To most Germans, news about Ireland is just one step above the "light entertainment" stuff that you find on news websites or in broadcasts.

Basically, the average German knows feck all about Ireland. For years the only news out of Ireland/about Ireland that ever reached Germany was the report about the latest killing up north.
Once that died down, coverage pretty much ended, to be replaced by cheesy (pardon the pun) Kerrrygold ads where aul fellas in flatcaps drove through green pastures with pony and trap and the odd Maeve Binchy / Rosamund Pilcher fillum shot in beatiful wesht Cork scenery.
Very recently you had programmes following German emmigrants all over the world and one or two of them ended up in booming Ireland.

All mildly entertaining ...and so is the current story of squandered riches and corrupt politicians.

To be perfectly honest, I wouldn't read too much into it ...when it comes down to it, the average German couldn't care less about Ireland. But seeing someone (a whole nation) on de telly that is worse off than oneself always has uplifting value during bad times.

(especially if that someone has fallen from great heights). You can then pat yourself on the back and tell yourself that the good old values like prudence and responsibility still win at the end of the day and feel a bit better about yourself.

That, in short, is the German motivation.

acontadino · 11-03-2009 3:00pm

and also the average german doesn't care we rejected lisbon either. i get the impression these are just little special reports like we get on rte about eu countries like latvia

Scofflaw · 11-03-2009 3:06pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

May I suggest growing a thicker skin?:D

You may, of course - I'm famously sensitive. However, I think the fact that there's over 5,000 "irish economy" results for just the Telegraph in the last year does rather suggest that this...

Fratton Fred wrote:

The UK is too concerned with the problems it is experiencing to care too much about what is happening in Ireland. the only news reports I have seen of late about Ireland is regarding Anglo Irish, which considering the name is relevant.

...is rather less than an accurate reflection of the level of interest in the UK.

I would say that Ireland is currently in the position of a relentless self-publicist whose trousers have fallen down - or perhaps been found to be swimming naked.

cordially,
Scofflaw

What are Germany's motives?

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