[US/IRL] 5X07 - "??????" [** SPOILERS WITHIN **] Poll added!!

Sad Professor

Another little thing I noticed:

After Locke writes Jack's letter he puts it in his back pocket. Hawking has it in "316" though. The police/medics certainly didn't give it to her unopened like that. So how does she get it? Ben? Perhaps but we never actually see him take it. In fact, he looks surprised when he sees it in "316".

So if it wasn't Ben, who was it? One of Widmore's people?

You see where I'm going? If Ben didn't give Hawking the letter then she must have got it off Widmore, meaning she's actually working for him. Which makes sense when you consider that they used to be on the island together and that Widmore gave Desmond her address in LA. And surely if Widmore knew about The Lamp Post he would have stormed it ages ago and taken control. So and he and Hawking must be working together.

But in that case what the hell is Ben doing? Does he know Hawking works for Widmore? Remember his reaction to Des saying she was Faraday's mother? Was he putting two and two together? And his reaction in this ep when Locke mentions her?

User45701

Fantastic,

Great episode - note i am only 21 mins in and well best epiosde in years (did i say that last week?) i think last weeks was funny but this is just quality

Acting 10/10 dialog 10/10 scenes 10/10 really enjoying it and the first and only time i have ever voted 10/10 on a last poll (and no its not cause im drunk - im generally more critical when im hammered)

Edit: hmm maybe i shouldnt have voted to early that scene with kate - boring & uninteresting from both john and kate

EDIT2: eithout a doubt the single greatest episode of lost since lockeu found the hatch in season one

tyhe only question i csn think of right now is if ben said "he who movwe sthe island cann ever return to the isl:land" thern how man ben and locke be there and does that mean charles can get back?

Really impressed with this episode and its omnly ep 7 -very interested to see what thetrest of the seaosn wil l bring

Basq

Christ, I didn't think User45701's posts could get any more illegible...

.. then he goes and gets hammered!

purple_hatstand

stevejazzx wrote: »

...Ben simply has to Know a lot of stuff..I'm wondering if there isn't some kind of time issue involved with him travelling between different time periods the way Locke recently has, perhaps Ben is only learning now what he knew in season 1, a bit out there but possible I suppose.
to know a lot of stuff

Interesting, cool ideas.

The period between Ben as a child meeting Richard in the woods and Ben as an adult destroying the Dharma Inititiative could/should answer some of this and hopefully more.

The original 815 Losties were collected together without their knowledge in order to perform some function on/for the island. The most important thing they had to do was get Christian there. Discuss.

stevejazzx

Sad Professor wrote: »

Another little thing I noticed:

After Locke writes Jack's letter he puts it in his back pocket. Hawking has it in "316" though. The police/medics certainly didn't give it to her unopened like that. So how does she get it? Ben? Perhaps but we never actually see him take it. In fact, he looks surprised when he sees it in "316".

So if it wasn't Ben, who was it? One of Widmore's people?

You see where I'm going? If Ben didn't give Hawking the letter then she must have got it off Widmore, meaning she's actually working for him. Which makes sense when you consider that they used to be on the island together and that Widmore gave Desmond her address in LA. And surely if Widmore knew about The Lamp Post he would have stormed it ages ago and taken control. So and he and Hawking must be working together.

But in that case what the hell is Ben doing? Does he know Hawking works for Widmore? Remember his reaction to Des saying she was Faraday's mother? Was he putting two and two together? And his reaction in this ep when Locke mentions her?

If Hawking worked with Widmore wouldn't Widmore have found the island before now? Or at least been on the last plane?

Sad Professor

stevejazzx wrote: »

If Hawking worked with Widmore wouldn't Widmore have found the island before now? Or at least been on the last plane?

I got the impression it took Hawking 3 years to find the island again. Perhaps as a result of Ben turning the wheel. But regardless of all that, given that Widmore clearly knew about The Lamp Post (he gave Des the address), I can't imagine anyway that he wouldn't have control of it. I mean it's not like The Lamp Post had heavy security. Widmore wanted to find the island and The Lamp Post was the easiest way to do so.

But you made a good point, which got me thinking:

Let's assume a few things first: The window to the island is always moving; Widmore controls the The Lamp Post and has been using it to try and find the island all these years, but prior to the arrival of the freighter he had failed. Why?

The button. It goes back to that old theory we had that the button-pushing somehow cloaked the island. So let's say that the island in its natural state emanates electromagnetism but the button-pushing somehow regulated and controlled it. Basically it messed up the pendulum. As long as the button was pushed The Lamp Post could never find the island. Until the hatch implosion, when suddenly the island became detectable again. That's how Widmore found the island and sent the boat.

(I don't know how Penny's guys in the tracking station up north fit into this, lets just forget about them for now.)

With The Swan destroyed, it wouldn't matter if the window to the island moved again, cause Widmore could just use the pendulum to find it again. That's why Ben had to turn the wheel, which moved the island completely out of Widmore's grasp but only for a few years. Perhaps this gave Ben and Richard time to prepare for "the war" Widmore spoke about.

anotherlostie

I suspect that the two new characters that we've seen interact with Locke this week may be Widmore plants on the plane, which ties in with Hawking and Widmore working together.

stevejazzx

anotherlostie wrote: »

I suspect that the two new characters that we've seen interact with Locke this week may be Widmore plants on the plane, which ties in with Hawking and Widmore working together.

I was just thinking that earlier but then why haven't they killed Ben?

Smoething doesn't work in all this...

Niall0

Sad Professor wrote: »

The button. It goes back to that old theory we had that the button-pushing somehow cloaked the island. So let's say that the island in its natural state emanates electromagnetism but the button-pushing somehow regulated and controlled it. Basically it messed up the pendulum. As long as the button was pushed The Lamp Post could never find the island. Until the hatch implosion, when suddenly the island became detectable again. That's how Widmore found the island and sent the boat.

I like that, what was it that hawking said earlier about, if the 72 hours ran out they were all doomed or something. Couldnt they just find it again or do they obly have one chance of finding it? maybe they somewhow setup the swan again?

Handsome Bob

I nabbed the following from Dark UFO, it's a great read and very convincing;

Widmore’s First Big Lie is that he wanted Ben "removed" so that John could assume his rightful Island Leadership Role.

Based on the Widmore comment in 409 ( “The shape of things to come“ ):
“That island's mine, Benjamin. It always was. It will be again.” , I think it’s safe to say that CW has/had no plans for John to become the Island Leader. On the other hand, Ben The Good specifically took on the burden of Moving The Island so that John could rejoin Family Richard and become their Leader - at least for a little while. Ben may be a Liar, but Widmore is a Lying Liar.

Finally, regarding John’s willingness to “trust” CW, he should remember 17-year-old CW completely willing to cut off Juliet’s hand just for starters and that he nonchalantly murdered “Cunningham” for the “crime” of hinting where to find Camp Richard, followed by his own cowardly flight which helped lead Team John directly to the Camp.

Widmore's Second Big Lie is that he doesn't want John to die. Not only does Charles want John to die, he wants him to die by suicide.

After the meeting with Walt, Matthew Abaddon’s comment: "That's 0 for 2, Mr. Locke. Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought you were supposed to bring everyone back." The Angel of The Abyss is pushing John into despair.

MA's final words to John are intended to lead him into Choosing Death: “Mr. Widmore told me that Richard Alpert said that you were going to die. So tell me, John, is that inevitable or is it a choice?"

After breaking some Westerfield Hotel ceiling tiles and stringing his Suicide cable over something strong enough near the poured concrete above and anchoring the cable to the radiator, John’s ready to die. He has chosen death - which is what CW and MA wanted him to choose.

When Ben intervenes, he knows that John must die. But not before he learns a few more things and not via Suicide.

"Widmore came to me. He saved me."
"No, John, he used you! He waited until you showed up so that you could help him get to the island. Charles Widmore is the reason I moved the island. So that he could never find it again. To keep him away so that you could lead." [which are exactly the circumstances under which Ben voluntarily left the island]

Ben then patiently rebuilt Locke's Faith and self-confidence to the point where he Chose Life and thanked Ben for preventing his suicide. At that point, it was OK for Ben to kill John, knowing that John would be resurrected as "himself" instead of whatever would have happened via suicide.

Suicide is a sin for "ordinary" people in the Christian, Jewish, Muslim, and Buddhist Religions and as I wrote a week or two ago, I was convinced that suicide would not permit John’s entry into Club Messiah.

Therefore, I believe that Ben’s intervention in John’s Suicide proves him to be a Good Guy, willing to do horrifying work in order to further The Island’s, or Jacob’s agenda. I believe that Ben’s “murder” of John was what permitted John to be resurrected, the opposite of what CW wanted. Note that Somebody also wanted Hugo to commit Suicide in “Dave”.

Knowing that John would retain his post-Resurrection memories, Ben knew that it was also important for John to hear, prior to his death, that he had, in fact succeeded in nudging Jack toward becoming a Believer.

The fact that Ben left Locke in Hanged Mode suggests that he wanted CW (and The O6) to believe that John had, in fact chosen Death - hence the Suicide Scene and the Suicide Note put into Ms H’s hands. I expect that CW will be unpleasantly surprised to find his erstwhile “protege” alive and well on The Island at some point. Theory by Roland

http://theoriesonlost.blogspot.com/




The only thing I would have reservations about is Ben saying along the lines of "I'll miss you John" which leads me to believe he may not have been aware that John would come back to life.

stevejazzx

Sad Professor wrote: »

(I don't know how Penny's guys in the tracking station up north fit into this, lets just forget about them for now.)

Well when the hatch impolded it created a detectable em field, before that the button was used to discharge the em build up (with of course a possible side of 'cloaking' the island) now the tracking station guys were placed there to detect just that (had orignailly imagined that penny came up with that idea herself to find desmond, but obviously Widmore told her where des was??) an em anomaly but it had always been contained historically. They report to penny who reports to her dad. The confusing part was, that at that point the story Penny and daddy weren't exactly getting along very well so I always suspected that Charles Widmore wasn't telling her everything; I actually always suspected that it was Widmore who set the action in motion for Desmond to be lampooned on the island, remember Widmores around the world boat race that Desmond had to win to get back his pride, then desmond mysteriously got that boat from Libby but the confusing part about that is if Widmore somehow contrived for des to be on the island then why can't widmore find the island himself??

SP wrote:

With The Swan destroyed, it wouldn't matter if the window to the island moved again, cause Widmore could just use the pendulum to find it again. That's why Ben had to turn the wheel, which moved the island completely out of Widmore's grasp but only for a few years. Perhaps this gave Ben and Richard time to prepare for "the war" Widmore spoke about.

How does the pendulum work exactly? It strikes me that it has to based on more than probabilities considering the losties are again back on the island, not only that but one set of losties sychronised into a 'time jumping experience' with another set of losties; can't help remembering that quote from damon years ago that this 'could' all be explained using fringe science...well they're certainly on the edge, that's for sure!:)

stevejazzx

LZ5by5 wrote: »

I nabbed the following from Dark UFO, it's a great read and very convincing;
http://theoriesonlost.blogspot.com/

.

Roland wrote:

Widmore’s First Big Lie is that he wanted Ben "removed" so that John could assume his rightful Island Leadership Role..................work in order to further The Island’ on The Island at some point. Theory by Roland

yeha that's excellent take on it. i mentioned that same suicide idea to the missus when we were watching it!

Sad Professor

stevejazzx wrote: »

Well when the hatch impolded it created a detectable em field, before that the button was used to discharge the em build up (with of course a possible side of 'cloaking' the island)

Yeah, I'd agree that the cloaking may have been an unintended side effect.

I think The Swan was initially a Dharma experiment gone wrong. They dug into the ground, opened a fissure in the island's electromagnetic core, siphoned energy off into a reactor (behind the cement wall) for experimentation. Then there was a near melt-down, everything went pear-shaped and they abandoned the experimentation. But instead of just sealing the whole thing off (which the fail-safe key did) they left the reactor there and implemented the button-pushing. Perhaps because they discovered it hid the island from the pendulum.

The big question of course is what did Ben know about all this? I've always argued that he didn't know the true purpose of The Swan but I don't know anymore.

now the tracking station guys were placed there to detect just that (had orignailly imagined that penny came up with that idea herself to find desmond, but obviously Widmore told her where des was??) an em anomaly but it had always been contained historically. They report to penny who reports to her dad. The confusing part was, that at that point the story Penny and daddy weren't exactly getting along very well so I always suspected that Charles Widmore wasn't telling her everything;

I think Penny and her father were running separate operations. He was looking for the island, she was looking for Desmond. I mean she seemed surprised when Charlie said he was on an island in the season 3 finale. But there's definitely a big question mark over what Penny knows.

I actually always suspected that it was Widmore who set the action in motion for Desmond to be lampooned on the island, remember Widmores around the world boat race that Desmond had to win to get back his pride, then desmond mysteriously got that boat from Libby but the confusing part about that is if Widmore somehow contrived for des to be on the island then why can't widmore find the island himself??

Henry Gale's balloon was sponsored by Widmore Corp as well. Maybe Widmore was just experimenting, trying different things under the guise of boat/balloon races in an attempt to find the island.

Hyzepher

If the Swan does in fact hide the island from the outside world then there is no way that Ben knew about it. Otherwise he wouldn't have pretented to Locke that he hadn't entered the numbers when Locke was trapped under the door. I also believe that if the Swan hides the Island then Ben would have ensured that he was in control of that station and not left it to chance by having Des or Locke or whoever control it.

Also, if the island is "so hidden" how come there was never an issue sending the food rations.

Sad Professor

Also, if the island is "so hidden" how come there was never an issue sending the food rations.

I reckon the food drops were dropped by Dharma years ago at the wrong bearing.

Anima

Would it have anything to do with the time stuff I wonder?

Mellor

~A few things that I'm stuck on.

Firstly, we seen John's "suicide" this week. Now, I have a few questions on this, in 5x06 Ms. Hawking said to Jack, "It's John Lockes suicide note", to which Jack replys "I didn't know".
Why did John say this?? The newspaper clipping we seen him reading outside the funeral palour mentions the suicide. Is this an oversight on the writers behalf, or was there something else to it.


The other thing is, Ben kills John after he mentions Eloise Hawking. Where did he get this name from??

Mr.Nice Guy

Mellor wrote: »

~A few things that I'm stuck on.

Firstly, we seen John's "suicide" this week. Now, I have a few questions on this, in 5x06 Ms. Hawking said to Jack, "It's John Lockes suicide note", to which Jack replys "I didn't know".
Why did John say this?? The newspaper clipping we seen him reading outside the funeral palour mentions the suicide. Is this an oversight on the writers behalf, or was there something else to it.

Maybe when Jack says he didn't know he's referring to the fact that Locke wrote a suicide note. Or maybe that's what the writers will claim.

Mellor wrote:

The other thing is, Ben kills John after he mentions Eloise Hawking. Where did he get this name from??

Christian gave Locke her name before he left the island.

With regards to the theory posted earlier, there's some points I find hard to agree with. Such as:

"Widmore came to me. He saved me."
"No, John, he used you! He waited until you showed up so that you could help him get to the island. Charles Widmore is the reason I moved the island. So that he could never find it again. To keep him away so that you could lead." [which are exactly the circumstances under which Ben voluntarily left the island]

Yet according to Christian, Ben wasn't supposed to go at all and he's annoyed Locke let him leave:

"Since when did listening to him (Ben) get you anywhere worth a damn?"

Of course, listening to Ben again gets Locke murdered!

Ben then patiently rebuilt Locke's Faith and self-confidence to the point where he Chose Life and thanked Ben for preventing his suicide. At that point, it was OK for Ben to kill John, knowing that John would be resurrected as "himself" instead of whatever would have happened via suicide.

Suicide is a sin for "ordinary" people in the Christian, Jewish, Muslim, and Buddhist Religions and as I wrote a week or two ago, I was convinced that suicide would not permit John’s entry into Club Messiah.

Presumably murder wouldn't have gotten Locke into Club Messiah either which is exactly what Ben wanted Locke to do to his father. Richard's intervention by suggesting Locke find Sawyer spares him this task.

Therefore, I believe that Ben’s intervention in John’s Suicide proves him to be a Good Guy, willing to do horrifying work in order to further The Island’s, or Jacob’s agenda. I believe that Ben’s “murder” of John was what permitted John to be resurrected, the opposite of what CW wanted. Note that Somebody also wanted Hugo to commit Suicide in “Dave”.

The Island told Locke that Ben was acting against its agenda. Jacob also asked Locke for help and Ben shot Locke and left him for dead. 'I certainly hope he helped you, John'. Did he shoot John to help him too? With friends like him... etc.

Knowing that John would retain his post-Resurrection memories, Ben knew that it was also important for John to hear, prior to his death, that he had, in fact succeeded in nudging Jack toward becoming a Believer.

How would Ben know Locke would retain post-Resurrection memories? I don't buy that. Remember what he said prior to leaving the room - 'I'm really going to miss you, John'. Why would he say that if he didn't believe this was the end of Locke once and for all?

The fact that Ben left Locke in Hanged Mode suggests that he wanted CW (and The O6) to believe that John had, in fact chosen Death - hence the Suicide Scene and the Suicide Note put into Ms H’s hands. I expect that CW will be unpleasantly surprised to find his erstwhile “protege” alive and well on The Island at some point. Theory by Roland

I agree he wanted everyone to believe Locke had chosen death but only because his own sinister plans would be unveiled otherwise. Seems to me Jacob wants Locke to lead the Island and Ben is hellbent on disrupting this plan.

Sad Professor

Mellor wrote: »

Why did John say this?? The newspaper clipping we seen him reading outside the funeral palour mentions the suicide. Is this an oversight on the writers behalf, or was there something else to it.

We never saw the full newspaper clipping Jack was looking at in that episode. We were only able to make out bits of it and there was nothing about suicide afaik. Somebody on the Fuselage later posted what they claimed was the full leaked version from the prop department which did mention suicide. But this was later proved to be foiler.

Psychedelic

Sad Professor wrote: »

Henry Gale's balloon was sponsored by Widmore Corp as well.

Was that mentioned in an episode? i can't remember that.

Hyzepher wrote: »

Also, if the island is "so hidden" how come there was never an issue sending the food rations.

someone metioned in another thread that the food rations might be explained through time travel - maybe the food ration drops were trapped in tme, say they were originaly dropped in the 80's but only landed on the island when the losties were there.....like that experiment faraday did in season 4?

Psychedelic

Sad Professor wrote: »

We never saw the full newspaper clipping Jack was looking at in that episode. We were only able to make out bits of it and there was nothing about suicide afaik. Somebody on the Fuselage later posted what they claimed was the full leaked version from the prop department which did mention suicide. But this was later proved to be foiler.

i always thought from that newspaper clipping (coz i saw the screenshots of it at the time) that it said jeremy bentham committed suicide (by hanging) so it wasn't a surprise for me when it was revealed on the show. i can't remember exactly though, memory is a bit hazy about this now...

Sad Professor

Psychedelic wrote: »

Was that mentioned in an episode? i can't remember that.

It was never mentioned but Widmore Labs was written on his balloon. I think this was in Lockdown in season 2.

someone metioned in another thread that the food rations might be explained through time travel - maybe the food ration drops were trapped in tme, say they were originaly dropped in the 80's but only landed on the island when the losties were there.....like that experiment faraday did in season 4?

Yeah it's to do with the bearing. If you enter on the correct bearing, everything is okay. But if you are even slightly off, there's a time dilation. We saw this several times last season: with the rocket experiment, the first helicopter trip (which arrived 2 days late) and with the doctor (who was thrown overboard and washed up on the island 2 days earlier, before he was actually killed).

Assumedly Dharma learned to measure this time dilation exactly and dropped the food rations on a precise bearing knowing that it would arrive in the future at a certain date.

Mellor

Sad Professor wrote: »

We never saw the full newspaper clipping Jack was looking at in that episode. We were only able to make out bits of it and there was nothing about suicide afaik. Somebody on the Fuselage later posted what they claimed was the full leaked version from the prop department which did mention suicide. But this was later proved to be foiler.

I don't think it said suicide or hanging exactly. But I was definitly aware that john commited suicide by hanging. Some about "body found ****** from a beam", or similar

Sad Professor

Mellor wrote: »

I don't think it said suicide or hanging exactly. But I was definitly aware that john commited suicide by hanging. Some about "body found ****** from a beam", or similar

Yeah actually you're right, there was something about a beam. This is what's visible according to Lostpedia:

Los Angeles
Man found dead in
downtown loft

"The body of Je ~*~ entham of
New York was discovered shortly after 4
a.m. in the ~*~ of Grand
Avenue. Ted [lastname], [a door]man at The
Tower ~*~ heard loud
noises ~*~ entham's loft.
~*~ [sa]fety, he co[nfessed]
~*~ discovered the
~*~ entered the loft a beam
in the ~*~ mom ~*~ [ac]cordin[g]
~*~

Mmcd

Im delighted to know for certain that Jack's father is the Jacob guy
Its been bugging me for ages when Jack finds his father's coffin empty in season 1 and then nothing more is mentioned of it!

Aldebaran

Mmcd wrote: »

Im delighted to know for certain that Jack's father is the Jacob guy

Say what now?

Mmcd

Aldebaran wrote: »

Say what now?

When John is pulling the steering wheel which sends him to Tunisia the man who is telling him to do it asks him to say hello to his son. John later says this to Jack and tells Jack his fathers name to confirm that he's correct. Maybe Im wrong with the Jacob part but the man who was with John when he turned the wheel is definitely Jack's father, whther this is Jacob or not - I could be wrong - all the time differences are confusing me!

Aldebaran

Mmcd wrote: »

When John is pulling the steering wheel which sends him to Tunisia the man who is telling him to do it asks him to say hello to his son. John later says this to Jack and tells Jack his fathers name to confirm that he's correct. Maybe Im wrong with the Jacob part but the man who was with John when he turned the wheel is definitely Jack's father, whther this is Jacob or not - I could be wrong - all the time differences are confusing me!

No I don't think Jack's father is Jacob. In fact I think he himself said he wasn't Jacob in a previous episode, he just said he was speaking on behalf of Jacob I think, I'm sure Sad Professor can clarify this!

Mr.Nice Guy

Aldebaran wrote: »

No I don't think Jack's father is Jacob. In fact I think he himself said he wasn't Jacob in a previous episode, he just said he was speaking on behalf of Jacob I think, I'm sure Sad Professor can clarify this!

Yeah it was in the cabin when Claire was there that Christian told Locke he could speak on behalf of Jacob.

ArmaniJeanss

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

How would Ben know Locke would retain post-Resurrection memories? I don't buy that. Remember what he said prior to leaving the room - 'I'm really going to miss you, John'. Why would he say that if he didn't believe this was the end of Locke once and for all?

It only really implies that he believes he won't see Locke again, not that he thinks its the end of Locke. Ben at this point thinks that he can never go back to the island. (If we beleive what he said in an earlier ep, an almightly leap I know, but he must have been telling the truth at least once or twice).

*******
Lol at SkyOne's pre-ep warning - 'This ep contains scenes of hanging which some viewers may find disturbing'.
Personally I was more disturbed by the topless Hurley scene 2 seasons ago but they never gave a warning for that. "This episode contains gratuitous moobies"

It seemed fairly clear to me that Matthew Abadon didn't want Locke to succeed. Firstly with the snide comments that weren't exactly a confidence builder for Locke. And the clincher was making sure that he was visible in the scene with Hurley - if he (Abadon) genuinely wanted Locke to convince Hurley to go back to the island then he would have kept himself hidden for that visit, by staying so smugly visible he made sure that Hurley would say no.
So if Abadon was faithfully following Widmore's wishes this implies that Widmore was lying to Locke about, well, everything really.

So yet again it looks to me that deceitful conniving murderous Benjamin is the good guy. Til the next ep when I'll probably change my mind.

By the way for those disappointed in the Jack v Locke encounter I'd be 90% sure that there will be another encounter revealed to us somewhere down the line. Maybe even a Locke/Sun encounter.

I thought this ep was fantastic, best since The Constant. 9/10.