[US/IRL] 5X07 - "??????" [** SPOILERS WITHIN **] Poll added!!

cooker3

- WARNING: THIS THREAD WILL CONTAIN SPOILERS FOR THOSE WHO HAVE NOT YET SEEN EPISODE

THE EPISODE TITLE IS A SPOILER. DO NOT READ ON IF YOU WANT THE TITLE OF THIS EPISODE TO REMAIN A MYSTERY

---

SPOILER WARNING:

From now on, this thread shall reveal details of the episode mentioned above. If you have not yet seen this episode, please do not move any further down the thread.


Episode Title: "The life and death of Jeremy Bentham"
Airdate: Feb 26th 2009

Synopsis (from TV.Com):

Spoiler: Locke's fateful mission off the island as Jeremy Bentham is revealed.

Next New Episode: 5X08 - Mar 4th - 2009
This episode shall air on:

ABC (US) - Feb 26th 2009
RTÉ (IRL) - Mar 01st 2009

If you are sure you have seen the episode as mentioned above (on the channels on those original airdates), you can move down further in order to discuss the episode.

Otherwise, YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED - there shall be major plot details of the episode revealed and discussed below with no spoiler tags used!



Ok, real thread here
It should be reaching its conclusion now in the states so hopefully it's out very soon!

cooker3

*bump so it's above the old thread*

whirlwind

ben kills locke

wtf didnt see that coming
iam bit diaspointed so far though tbh

pretty good a lot of locke's mission was played how i expected it would. Was hoping for a big Jack v Locke scene and felt a little underwemled by their encounter. Good to see to walt again and we found out who abadanon was working for.
I dont know who to believe Ben or widmore. Did ben do what he did for good reasons ie to make them go back or for his own reasons and what will he do now that he is there. Also the way we see Ben at the end does that mean he wasnt supposed to go back like the others. I gave it an 8 because i was a little disappointed in the Locke and Jack scene. Anyway next weeks looks class.

Anima

Good episode I thought. I guess the main thing we can take from it is the whole 'whos telling the truth' angle. Both Ben and Widmore were basically saying the same thing throughout. I don't really know what to make of it.

cooker3

Decent episode. I was hoping for a bit more.
It kinda reminded me of Meeting Kevin Johnson, fairly dark especially the scene in the motel.

Main questions answered is that Abaddon was working for Widmore. I get the sense they brought him in to kill him off cause the actor is in Fringe. Flight 316 crashed on prison island like was said on some other thread. Ben is there and Locke is "alive" despite being killed by Ben!

I was a little disappointed with Lockes meetings with the Oceanic 6. I wanted them to say more. How come nobody asked how he got of the island. Why didn't Jack ask about Claire. Did Kate ask about Sawyer and so on.
Also how did Jack know his name was Jeremy Bentham?
I also wonder how Sayed got from Dominican Republic to the mental instituted in Santa Rosa. Who or what made him go? Hopefully we see that in an upcoming flashback.

Oh also, we learned a good bit more about Widmore which was interesting. I think he said he was on the island for 3 decades before Ben ousted him. This must mean Penny was born on the island right?

Anyway. I give it a 7.

Requiem4adream

Anima wrote: »

Good episode I thought. I guess the main thing we can take from it is the whole 'whos telling the truth' angle. Both Ben and Widmore were basically saying the same thing throughout. I don't really know what to make of it.

For a long time now the writers have been playing the "is he good/evil" card re: Ben, i think after this episode if they try pull another 360 to portray him as good it'll lose credibility.

He clearly murdered John in a fit of rage after hearing Eloise Hawkings name

- yet there's still more to be filled in as to why he wanted him brought back to the island.

I was underwhelmed with some of the conversations: particularly with Walt. Clunky at best. "Must be like 3 years since i saw my dad". Glad to know you care then Walt! Still unconvinced for the reason behind seeing him, as their conversation revealed nothing.

None of the other encounters had an epic feel to them, nor did John really offer compelling reasons for wanting them to come back. The whole 'to save your friends' angle was all he could come up with and i doubt they believed him anyway.

I'm also not convinced they did enough in the episode to make his attempting suicide realistic. Reminded me of a poor imitation of the Shawshank Redemption scene minus the compelling reasons for doing it. He gave up rather too quickly; i dont think Kate, Jack etc making him out to be a lonely, old man would dissuade him (from trying to get them back) as quickly as it did.

I guess the major thing to take from the episode is that he's alive again. Raises questions re: Christian and some others over the duration of the show who have appeared to people.

Overall i think it had potential to be a classic but trudged in disappointingly around the 7/10 mark.

cooker3

I agree that his reasons were not enough and in general I can't think of 1 reason why Richard, Ben, Eloise, Locke and everyone needs the Oceanic 6 to return the island. What will they actually do or achieve?

Handsome Bob

Requiem4adream wrote: »

I was underwhelmed with some of the conversations: particularly with Walt. Clunky at best. "Must be like 3 years since i saw my dad". Glad to know you care then Walt! Still unconvinced for the reason behind seeing him, as their conversation revealed nothing.

I thought that conversation had a bit of forshadowing. Walt told John he had been having dreams of John in a suit being threatened by a bunch of people on the island. Now that we know Ben is there with John, I wouldn't be surprised if Ben manipulates the crash victims of 316 into thinking that John is the bad guy, thus explaining Walts dreams.

Oh, and Helen died on my birthday!:eek::P

abelard

Like was said above, I thought it promised a lot but was ultimately disappointing.

I guess they're saving the actual reasons Jack, Kate etc. decided to return for future flashbacks. We really got nothing but confirmation that Locke visited them all (bar Sun).

The only level on which it really worked for me was as something of a character study of Locke. He's been written as someone who always felt inadequate until he got to the island, and I think they wanted to show him struggle again as he tried and failed to fulfil this "destiny" that he feels is there but doesn't understand.

jimbling

Thought it was a good episode, with a few flaws.
It was pretty obvious, from previous episodes, that Locks discussions with the oceanic 6 were not the ones to convince them (aside from starting Jack on his downward spiral) but they were very very underwhelming. He made little effort to convince. As mentioned by others... this "save the people left behind" is a bit weak.

Agree with LZ5by5 on the Walt comment... that was the reason for the encounter all right.

My big peeve about this episode was the Lock suicide scene. Very disappointing. I was sure it was going to be due to him realising that Richard was right, and he needed to die. Followed by an epic inner battle to actually carry out the deed.
Instead, we got a whimpering John, giving up... I thought we were rid of that insecure whiny bitch. I know you could say it's the off island John vs the on island John, but that doesn't cut it for me.

I did liked the death scene though.... Bens rage at the mention of Eloise Hawking was interesting... lends towards it been jealousy that she thinks John is special and not him. I recall someone mentioning that she may also be Bens mother, perhaps more of a possibility now. This might also clear up why he then wanted JLs body to go back to the island.... because mummy said so :pac:

The Charles vs Ben battle for righteousness continues. My take, they're both twisted evil fcks
Seriously, never mind good vs bad... I reckon they're both evil. The island, and perhaps the power it gave them, has corrupted them both. I reckon the two are just the top layer of pawns fighting it out anyway.

All in all, I thought it better than the last few weeks

pkumohideeile

abelard wrote: »

Like was said above, I thought it promised a lot but was ultimately disappointing.

I guess they're saving the actual reasons Jack, Kate etc. decided to return for future flashbacks. We really got nothing but confirmation that Locke visited them all (bar Sun).

The only level on which it really worked for me was as something of a character study of Locke. He's been written as someone who always felt inadequate until he got to the island, and I think they wanted to show him struggle again as he tried and failed to fulfil this "destiny" that he feels is there but doesn't understand.

Yes this is all true in my mind. Still I wasn't bored, i enjoyed it all so gave it an 8 because i've wanted to see these scenes for a long time since the 3rd/4th season.

I can't remember the timeframe in lost but does anybody remember when Jack says in the hostpital hallway to some doctor "you can ask my father upstairs" about something or other? And that sounded ludicrous because his dad was dead. Did that happen right after locke met with jack??

What is the deal with Walt aging so fast? He's going to end up like Robin Williams in 'Jack'. I heard the creators had a story for this, i wish they'd filled that in a few seasons ago so we wouldn't think it's weird to watch Walt on screen.

Sad Professor

They landed on Hydra island, I knew it! :cool: Although not on the runway the Others were building. Would have been cool if they had.

I really liked this episode. The O6 stuff was a bit predictable. But the end was pure craziness. I can't believe they killed Abaddon, but like cooker said he's in the Fringe now so we should have seen it coming.

I reckon the two island sequences bookending the episode were added after they decided to switch it with last week's episode. According to DarkUFO the opening scene (with Caesar in the Hydra, etc) was originally going to be the teaser scene of the premiere but they replaced it with the Candle/Orchid stuff. And the last scene of Locke finding Ben was probably ripped from another episode.

What is the deal with Walt aging so fast? He's going to end up like Robin Williams in 'Jack'. I heard the creators had a story for this, i wish they'd filled that in a few seasons ago so we wouldn't think it's weird to watch Walt on screen.

I think he's meant to have aged normally. That scene takes placed 3 years after Walt left the island.

pkumohideeile

I wonder would I have given this episode an 8 if last weeks episode wasn't so dissapointing. Probably should have given a 7. ah well.

Hey will Locke get super dissappearing powers like Christian?!

Sad Professor

Sad Professor wrote:

They landed on Hydra island, I knew it! Although not on the runway the Others were building. Would have been cool if they had.

On second thoughts, going by the screencaps, it looks like Lapidus DID land the plane on the runway, he just went slightly off it into the trees as the plane came to a stop.

Check it out:

http://i.iimmgg.com/images/gr/d3651c14c6743e1ccb1f8feb0cff3ff1.jpg

You can just about make out the makeshift gravel runway. Very very cool. This means Ben knew back in season 3 about Flight 316 coming to the island.

Here's a shot of the runway from a deleted scene in season 3:
http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Image:Runwaybirdview.jpg

Handsome Bob

I forgot to mention what I thought about Locke and Ben. I really am conflicted about Locke's death scene because it is hard to decipher want angle they were coming from.

How did Ben get to point A (genuine concern for John) to point B (choking John in a fit of rage)? The only guess I can come up with is that Ben always planned on murdering John. I think Ben lured John into a fall sense of security so he could committ the deed himself. He has blind hatred for John because of how he was usurped as the leader of the island, he wanted the satisfaction of murdering John. It truly was an evil act.

Anima

What I took from Ben's actions is that he was only using Locke again for his own plans. Ben acted concerned because he needed to find out how to get back to the island. He told Locke everything that he wanted to hear, you're inportant / special etc. If Locke died, that information would have been lost forever and Ben would be stuck not knowing what to do. After Locke told him the plan ie. get all the people and go to Eloise, Ben no longer needed him.

Sherifu

Anima wrote: »

What I took from Ben's actions is that he was only using Locke again for his own plans. Ben acted concerned because he needed to find out how to get back to the island. He told Locke everything that he wanted to hear, you're inportant / special etc. If Locke died, that information would have been lost forever and Ben would be stuck not knowing what to do. After Locke told him the plan ie. get all the people and go to Eloise, Ben no longer needed him.

This is exactly how I saw it too. Once Ben knew what to do after getting the O6 together he didn't need Locke.

Psychedelic

I really enjoyed the Jack and Locke scene, especially when Locke mentioned Christian. The big thing I took from this episode was Abbadon's "I make sure people get where they're supposed to be" - ramming home the point that he made sure all the Losties were on Flight 815.

jimbling wrote: »

My big peeve about this episode was the Lock suicide scene. Very disappointing. I was sure it was going to be due to him realising that Richard was right, and he needed to die. Followed by an epic inner battle to actually carry out the deed.

I thought Terry O'Quinn's acting was fantastic, the highlight of this episode for me, but like you said I was a bit disappointed that once again he let himself be manipulated by Ben. I thought he would just for once ignore Ben and do what Richard said and kill himself. For a moment I thought Ben and Locke were going to fake Locke's suicide, maybe by putting Locke in a temporary coma like Nikki & Paulo were in, then out of nowhere Ben murders him, didn't see that coming.

I did liked the death scene though.... Bens rage at the mention of Eloise Hawking was interesting... lends towards it been jealousy that she thinks John is special and not him. I recall someone mentioning that she may also be Bens mother, perhaps more of a possibility now. This might also clear up why he then wanted JLs body to go back to the island.... because mummy said so :pac:

Sherifu wrote: »

This is exactly how I saw it too. Once Ben knew what to do after getting the O6 together he didn't need Locke.

I can't make out why he killed Locke, why didn't he leave Locke do it himself? Why plead with him, then kill him? Is it because of the mention of Eloise that Ben realised something else, jealousy maybe?

The Charles vs Ben battle for righteousness continues. My take, they're both twisted evil fcks
Seriously, never mind good vs bad... I reckon they're both evil. The island, and perhaps the power it gave them, has corrupted them both. I reckon the two are just the top layer of pawns fighting it out anyway.

All in all, I thought it better than the last few weeks

I always thought Ben was definitely one of the "good guys" but now I'm totally confused after him murdering Locke.

Sad Professor wrote: »

On second thoughts, going by the screencaps, it looks like Lapidus DID land the plane on the runway, he just went slightly off it into the trees as the plane came to a stop.

Check it out:

http://i.iimmgg.com/images/gr/d3651c14c6743e1ccb1f8feb0cff3ff1.jpg

You can just about make out the makeshift gravel runway. Very very cool. This means Ben knew back in season 3 about Flight 316 coming to the island.

Here's a shot of the runway from a deleted scene in season 3:
http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Image:Runwaybirdview.jpg

Nicely spotted. From a recent podcast or DVD commentary the writers laughed about the runway as if it was something that they were just going to pretend never happened, but it looks like they worked it into the show, whether it was planned since then, who knows.

Sherifu

Psychedelic wrote: »

I can't make out why he killed Locke, why didn't he leave Locke do it himself? Why plead with him, then kill him? Is it because of the mention of Eloise that Ben realised something else, jealousy maybe?

The way I saw it is as much as Ben knows he didn't know Eloise was the key. There could be a different angle but that was my first take on it.

This is the first time that old fake spoiler from previous seasons is actually true:

"Locke dies"

purple_hatstand

I'm thinking Ben doesn't know half as much about evrything as we've previously been led to believe. He didn't know Jin was still alive, and it seemed he was teasing information out of Locke before he killed him. He obviously didn't know at that point that getting Locke back to the island was critical to 'the plan'. He obviously rushes straight off to see Eloise, who fills him in and he begins the rounding-up process all over again. He's then surprised again to find out (from Desmond) that Eloise is Faraday's mother. Ben/Widmore - good/evil question is definitely a red herring. They're both vying for control of something they don't fully understand.

anotherlostie

I liked the stuff with Locke and Widmore, and Locke and Abbadon, but asides from that it was a letdown. The O6 meetings told us nothing, but I guess they set up a start point for the subsequent flashbacks to explain their motivation for going to the island. I'm still curious as to what the impact of Walt and Desmond's absence will be. My read of Ben killing Locke was that Locke couldn't die by his own hand, he needed someone else to do it (presuming Ben knew what Richard told Locke, as Ben always seems to know these things).

Helix

huge improvement on last week's disaster

Psychedelic

anotherlostie wrote: »

My read of Ben killing Locke was that Locke couldn't die by his own hand, he needed someone else to do it (presuming Ben knew what Richard told Locke, as Ben always seems to know these things).

Yeah I was mulling over that idea too, but for some reason it's just not sitting right with me. Remember what Abbadon was saying to Locke about having a choice whether he wanted to die or not? That might tie in with what you're saying.

Mellor

cooker3 wrote: »

Main questions answered is that Abaddon was working for Widmore. I get the sense they brought him in to kill him off cause the actor is in Fringe.

It was already confirmed that he worked for Widmore, at the end of last season, he was the one who hired Daniel, Miles etc

LZ5by5 wrote: »

I thought that conversation had a bit of forshadowing. Walt told John he had been having dreams of John in a suit being threatened by a bunch of people on the island. Now that we know Ben is there with John, I wouldn't be surprised if Ben manipulates the crash victims of 316 into thinking that John is the bad guy, thus explaining Walts dreams.

I took that dream to be a reference to the opening scene, locke dressed up on the beach surrounded by people worried about him.

pkumohideeile wrote: »

What is the deal with Walt aging so fast? He's going to end up like Robin Williams in 'Jack'.

Em, you have it backwards, its been 3 years on screen since we seen Walt. (which was only a year off screen) So he actually aging quite slow. Unlike the 100 days spent over 4 years.

Sad Professor

Ben is a good guy. I've been convinced of this since episode 4 of season 3. It may take until the end of the series, but I've no doubt that he will be revealed as a good guy in the end. Not as a white knight but as someone who did bad things to ensure good prevails. Like a certain character in the Harry Potter series...

Why did he kill Locke? I think Locke will tell a past-version of Ben to do it in the future. Locke's death and rebirth is a necessary part of his journey. But there's something about Locke's mention of Hawking that makes Ben realise he has to do it.

And now that it turns out that Abaddon was just a lowly human, I'm starting to (again) lean towards the idea that Jacob is the big force for evil on the show.

stevejazzx

purple_hatstand wrote: »

I'm thinking Ben doesn't know half as much about evrything as we've previously been led to believe. He didn't know Jin was still alive, and it seemed he was teasing information out of Locke before he killed him. He obviously didn't know at that point that getting Locke back to the island was critical to 'the plan'. He obviously rushes straight off to see Eloise, who fills him in and he begins the rounding-up process all over again. He's then surprised again to find out (from Desmond) that Eloise is Faraday's mother. Ben/Widmore - good/evil question is definitely a red herring. They're both vying for control of something they don't fully understand.

Going on that episode that seems absolutely sound logic and I really want to agree with it but what about the information Ben has known in the past; the individual files on the losteis, the communicatios center on the island, the information about Jacob, the commanding of Richard Alpert, bringnig Juliet to the Island via sub, the operation of 'smokie' to kill off the army guys last season, his little foray from the wheel through the desert (interesting that Ben wasn't killed by Widmore who is monitoring the 'exit'...Ben simply has to Know a lot of stuff..I'm wondering if there isn't some kind of time issue involved with him travelling between different time periods the way Locke recently has, perhaps Ben is only learning now what he knew in season 1, a bit out there but possible I suppose.
to know a lot of stuff

Mr.Nice Guy

I thought it was an outstanding piece of drama. Loved it. I thought Terry O'Quinn's performance throughout the episode was absolutely brilliant. The murder of Locke had me absolutely outraged. :pac: The ending did placate me somewhat.

I'm not so sure that I agree with Sad Professor on Ben ultimately being revealed as a good guy. I can certainly see it's a possibility alright, but this is a guy that watched his own daughter be killed in front of him so I'm not sure he's getting orders from another Locke on what to do.

I find myself thinking back to Sayid's words to Hurley when he said whatever he tells you, do the opposite. Sayid knows he can't be trusted. Remember he was pretty much bang on the money all the time during the first two seasons when it came to figuring people out. It's what he did for a living, figure people out. I think he's right about Ben once again. He's not to be trusted. I don't think Locke will trust him in the future. Then again, I could be completely wrong. That's what I love about this episode. It has set things up beautifully and the writers can go a lot of ways with it.

10/10 from me. Best show on television when it produces episodes like this. :cool:

Basq

Thought it was more or less a fine episode to be honest!

The twist of Ben turning on Locke and killing him was magnificiently done.. as was the end of episode reveal.

I'm with SP on this... Ben has been (in my opinion for the past 2 seasons) essentially a "good guy". He's done bad things.. but I think with a purpose and is fighting for a good cause essentially.

One thing I did take with me from this episode is if Locke is alive on the Island and it's somewhat due to taking the place of Christian on 316, this vision we're seeing of Christian would not appear a hallucination (as Locke can be seen.. well, by the survivors of 316) but will this have an effect on either Christian or Locke leaving the Island?

Mr.Nice Guy

basquille wrote: »

One thing I did take with me from this episode is if Locke is alive on the Island and it's somewhat due to taking the place of Christian on 316, this vision we're seeing of Christian would not appear a hallucination (as Locke can be seen.. well, by the survivors of 316) but will this have an effect on either Christian or Locke leaving the Island?

On a related point to this, where does Claire fit in? A few episodes back she appeared to Kate and told her not to go back with Aaron. Yet Christian told Locke to bring them all back. So is she on a different page to Christian? Was it not Claire?

Anyone got any thoughts?

Sad Professor

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

On a related point to this, where does Claire fit in? A few episodes back she appeared to Kate and told her not to go back with Aaron. Yet Christian told Locke to bring them all back. So is she on a different page to Christian? Was it not Claire?

Anyone got any thoughts?

Maybe Christian's idea of "all" means only Jack, Kate, Sayid, Sun and Hurley. He told Locke last season: "The baby's where he's supposed to be, and that's not here. "

anotherlostie

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

On a related point to this, where does Claire fit in? A few episodes back she appeared to Kate and told her not to go back with Aaron. Yet Christian told Locke to bring them all back. So is she on a different page to Christian? Was it not Claire?

Anyone got any thoughts?

Aaron wasn't on the 815 flight manifest, so technically he didn't need to be brought back (neither was Desmond, but as we know, the island isn't finished with him yet. I'd go along with the theory that Kate will be pregnant as a result of sleeping with Jack the night before they went, to replace Claire on the 316 flight. Remember Claire was told that she, and she alone, was to raise Aaron - I'm presuming this will come up again when/ if ever she reappears.

As regards Christian being there, I'm presuming he was reincarnated in the same way that John has been now; I recall Jack finding the coffin way back in Season 1 and it was empty, and he also had visions (or were they) of his father on the island. Whether or not there can only be one reincarnated person on the island at one time could be revealed (maybe via flashback to what happens to Christian when John wakes up, or maybe they will meet up at some future point).

Sad Professor

Another little thing I noticed:

After Locke writes Jack's letter he puts it in his back pocket. Hawking has it in "316" though. The police/medics certainly didn't give it to her unopened like that. So how does she get it? Ben? Perhaps but we never actually see him take it. In fact, he looks surprised when he sees it in "316".

So if it wasn't Ben, who was it? One of Widmore's people?

You see where I'm going? If Ben didn't give Hawking the letter then she must have got it off Widmore, meaning she's actually working for him. Which makes sense when you consider that they used to be on the island together and that Widmore gave Desmond her address in LA. And surely if Widmore knew about The Lamp Post he would have stormed it ages ago and taken control. So and he and Hawking must be working together.

But in that case what the hell is Ben doing? Does he know Hawking works for Widmore? Remember his reaction to Des saying she was Faraday's mother? Was he putting two and two together? And his reaction in this ep when Locke mentions her?

User45701

Fantastic,

Great episode - note i am only 21 mins in and well best epiosde in years (did i say that last week?) i think last weeks was funny but this is just quality

Acting 10/10 dialog 10/10 scenes 10/10 really enjoying it and the first and only time i have ever voted 10/10 on a last poll (and no its not cause im drunk - im generally more critical when im hammered)

Edit: hmm maybe i shouldnt have voted to early that scene with kate - boring & uninteresting from both john and kate

EDIT2: eithout a doubt the single greatest episode of lost since lockeu found the hatch in season one

tyhe only question i csn think of right now is if ben said "he who movwe sthe island cann ever return to the isl:land" thern how man ben and locke be there and does that mean charles can get back?

Really impressed with this episode and its omnly ep 7 -very interested to see what thetrest of the seaosn wil l bring

Basq

Christ, I didn't think User45701's posts could get any more illegible...

.. then he goes and gets hammered!

purple_hatstand

stevejazzx wrote: »

...Ben simply has to Know a lot of stuff..I'm wondering if there isn't some kind of time issue involved with him travelling between different time periods the way Locke recently has, perhaps Ben is only learning now what he knew in season 1, a bit out there but possible I suppose.
to know a lot of stuff

Interesting, cool ideas.

The period between Ben as a child meeting Richard in the woods and Ben as an adult destroying the Dharma Inititiative could/should answer some of this and hopefully more.

The original 815 Losties were collected together without their knowledge in order to perform some function on/for the island. The most important thing they had to do was get Christian there. Discuss.

stevejazzx

Sad Professor wrote: »

Another little thing I noticed:

After Locke writes Jack's letter he puts it in his back pocket. Hawking has it in "316" though. The police/medics certainly didn't give it to her unopened like that. So how does she get it? Ben? Perhaps but we never actually see him take it. In fact, he looks surprised when he sees it in "316".

So if it wasn't Ben, who was it? One of Widmore's people?

You see where I'm going? If Ben didn't give Hawking the letter then she must have got it off Widmore, meaning she's actually working for him. Which makes sense when you consider that they used to be on the island together and that Widmore gave Desmond her address in LA. And surely if Widmore knew about The Lamp Post he would have stormed it ages ago and taken control. So and he and Hawking must be working together.

But in that case what the hell is Ben doing? Does he know Hawking works for Widmore? Remember his reaction to Des saying she was Faraday's mother? Was he putting two and two together? And his reaction in this ep when Locke mentions her?

If Hawking worked with Widmore wouldn't Widmore have found the island before now? Or at least been on the last plane?

Sad Professor

stevejazzx wrote: »

If Hawking worked with Widmore wouldn't Widmore have found the island before now? Or at least been on the last plane?

I got the impression it took Hawking 3 years to find the island again. Perhaps as a result of Ben turning the wheel. But regardless of all that, given that Widmore clearly knew about The Lamp Post (he gave Des the address), I can't imagine anyway that he wouldn't have control of it. I mean it's not like The Lamp Post had heavy security. Widmore wanted to find the island and The Lamp Post was the easiest way to do so.

But you made a good point, which got me thinking:

Let's assume a few things first: The window to the island is always moving; Widmore controls the The Lamp Post and has been using it to try and find the island all these years, but prior to the arrival of the freighter he had failed. Why?

The button. It goes back to that old theory we had that the button-pushing somehow cloaked the island. So let's say that the island in its natural state emanates electromagnetism but the button-pushing somehow regulated and controlled it. Basically it messed up the pendulum. As long as the button was pushed The Lamp Post could never find the island. Until the hatch implosion, when suddenly the island became detectable again. That's how Widmore found the island and sent the boat.

(I don't know how Penny's guys in the tracking station up north fit into this, lets just forget about them for now.)

With The Swan destroyed, it wouldn't matter if the window to the island moved again, cause Widmore could just use the pendulum to find it again. That's why Ben had to turn the wheel, which moved the island completely out of Widmore's grasp but only for a few years. Perhaps this gave Ben and Richard time to prepare for "the war" Widmore spoke about.

anotherlostie

I suspect that the two new characters that we've seen interact with Locke this week may be Widmore plants on the plane, which ties in with Hawking and Widmore working together.

stevejazzx

anotherlostie wrote: »

I suspect that the two new characters that we've seen interact with Locke this week may be Widmore plants on the plane, which ties in with Hawking and Widmore working together.

I was just thinking that earlier but then why haven't they killed Ben?

Smoething doesn't work in all this...

Niall0

Sad Professor wrote: »

The button. It goes back to that old theory we had that the button-pushing somehow cloaked the island. So let's say that the island in its natural state emanates electromagnetism but the button-pushing somehow regulated and controlled it. Basically it messed up the pendulum. As long as the button was pushed The Lamp Post could never find the island. Until the hatch implosion, when suddenly the island became detectable again. That's how Widmore found the island and sent the boat.

I like that, what was it that hawking said earlier about, if the 72 hours ran out they were all doomed or something. Couldnt they just find it again or do they obly have one chance of finding it? maybe they somewhow setup the swan again?

Handsome Bob

I nabbed the following from Dark UFO, it's a great read and very convincing;

Widmore’s First Big Lie is that he wanted Ben "removed" so that John could assume his rightful Island Leadership Role.

Based on the Widmore comment in 409 ( “The shape of things to come“ ):
“That island's mine, Benjamin. It always was. It will be again.” , I think it’s safe to say that CW has/had no plans for John to become the Island Leader. On the other hand, Ben The Good specifically took on the burden of Moving The Island so that John could rejoin Family Richard and become their Leader - at least for a little while. Ben may be a Liar, but Widmore is a Lying Liar.

Finally, regarding John’s willingness to “trust” CW, he should remember 17-year-old CW completely willing to cut off Juliet’s hand just for starters and that he nonchalantly murdered “Cunningham” for the “crime” of hinting where to find Camp Richard, followed by his own cowardly flight which helped lead Team John directly to the Camp.

Widmore's Second Big Lie is that he doesn't want John to die. Not only does Charles want John to die, he wants him to die by suicide.

After the meeting with Walt, Matthew Abaddon’s comment: "That's 0 for 2, Mr. Locke. Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought you were supposed to bring everyone back." The Angel of The Abyss is pushing John into despair.

MA's final words to John are intended to lead him into Choosing Death: “Mr. Widmore told me that Richard Alpert said that you were going to die. So tell me, John, is that inevitable or is it a choice?"

After breaking some Westerfield Hotel ceiling tiles and stringing his Suicide cable over something strong enough near the poured concrete above and anchoring the cable to the radiator, John’s ready to die. He has chosen death - which is what CW and MA wanted him to choose.

When Ben intervenes, he knows that John must die. But not before he learns a few more things and not via Suicide.

"Widmore came to me. He saved me."
"No, John, he used you! He waited until you showed up so that you could help him get to the island. Charles Widmore is the reason I moved the island. So that he could never find it again. To keep him away so that you could lead." [which are exactly the circumstances under which Ben voluntarily left the island]

Ben then patiently rebuilt Locke's Faith and self-confidence to the point where he Chose Life and thanked Ben for preventing his suicide. At that point, it was OK for Ben to kill John, knowing that John would be resurrected as "himself" instead of whatever would have happened via suicide.

Suicide is a sin for "ordinary" people in the Christian, Jewish, Muslim, and Buddhist Religions and as I wrote a week or two ago, I was convinced that suicide would not permit John’s entry into Club Messiah.

Therefore, I believe that Ben’s intervention in John’s Suicide proves him to be a Good Guy, willing to do horrifying work in order to further The Island’s, or Jacob’s agenda. I believe that Ben’s “murder” of John was what permitted John to be resurrected, the opposite of what CW wanted. Note that Somebody also wanted Hugo to commit Suicide in “Dave”.

Knowing that John would retain his post-Resurrection memories, Ben knew that it was also important for John to hear, prior to his death, that he had, in fact succeeded in nudging Jack toward becoming a Believer.

The fact that Ben left Locke in Hanged Mode suggests that he wanted CW (and The O6) to believe that John had, in fact chosen Death - hence the Suicide Scene and the Suicide Note put into Ms H’s hands. I expect that CW will be unpleasantly surprised to find his erstwhile “protege” alive and well on The Island at some point. Theory by Roland

http://theoriesonlost.blogspot.com/




The only thing I would have reservations about is Ben saying along the lines of "I'll miss you John" which leads me to believe he may not have been aware that John would come back to life.

stevejazzx

Sad Professor wrote: »

(I don't know how Penny's guys in the tracking station up north fit into this, lets just forget about them for now.)

Well when the hatch impolded it created a detectable em field, before that the button was used to discharge the em build up (with of course a possible side of 'cloaking' the island) now the tracking station guys were placed there to detect just that (had orignailly imagined that penny came up with that idea herself to find desmond, but obviously Widmore told her where des was??) an em anomaly but it had always been contained historically. They report to penny who reports to her dad. The confusing part was, that at that point the story Penny and daddy weren't exactly getting along very well so I always suspected that Charles Widmore wasn't telling her everything; I actually always suspected that it was Widmore who set the action in motion for Desmond to be lampooned on the island, remember Widmores around the world boat race that Desmond had to win to get back his pride, then desmond mysteriously got that boat from Libby but the confusing part about that is if Widmore somehow contrived for des to be on the island then why can't widmore find the island himself??

SP wrote:

With The Swan destroyed, it wouldn't matter if the window to the island moved again, cause Widmore could just use the pendulum to find it again. That's why Ben had to turn the wheel, which moved the island completely out of Widmore's grasp but only for a few years. Perhaps this gave Ben and Richard time to prepare for "the war" Widmore spoke about.

How does the pendulum work exactly? It strikes me that it has to based on more than probabilities considering the losties are again back on the island, not only that but one set of losties sychronised into a 'time jumping experience' with another set of losties; can't help remembering that quote from damon years ago that this 'could' all be explained using fringe science...well they're certainly on the edge, that's for sure!:)

stevejazzx

LZ5by5 wrote: »

I nabbed the following from Dark UFO, it's a great read and very convincing;
http://theoriesonlost.blogspot.com/

.

Roland wrote:

Widmore’s First Big Lie is that he wanted Ben "removed" so that John could assume his rightful Island Leadership Role..................work in order to further The Island’ on The Island at some point. Theory by Roland

yeha that's excellent take on it. i mentioned that same suicide idea to the missus when we were watching it!

Sad Professor

stevejazzx wrote: »

Well when the hatch impolded it created a detectable em field, before that the button was used to discharge the em build up (with of course a possible side of 'cloaking' the island)

Yeah, I'd agree that the cloaking may have been an unintended side effect.

I think The Swan was initially a Dharma experiment gone wrong. They dug into the ground, opened a fissure in the island's electromagnetic core, siphoned energy off into a reactor (behind the cement wall) for experimentation. Then there was a near melt-down, everything went pear-shaped and they abandoned the experimentation. But instead of just sealing the whole thing off (which the fail-safe key did) they left the reactor there and implemented the button-pushing. Perhaps because they discovered it hid the island from the pendulum.

The big question of course is what did Ben know about all this? I've always argued that he didn't know the true purpose of The Swan but I don't know anymore.

now the tracking station guys were placed there to detect just that (had orignailly imagined that penny came up with that idea herself to find desmond, but obviously Widmore told her where des was??) an em anomaly but it had always been contained historically. They report to penny who reports to her dad. The confusing part was, that at that point the story Penny and daddy weren't exactly getting along very well so I always suspected that Charles Widmore wasn't telling her everything;

I think Penny and her father were running separate operations. He was looking for the island, she was looking for Desmond. I mean she seemed surprised when Charlie said he was on an island in the season 3 finale. But there's definitely a big question mark over what Penny knows.

I actually always suspected that it was Widmore who set the action in motion for Desmond to be lampooned on the island, remember Widmores around the world boat race that Desmond had to win to get back his pride, then desmond mysteriously got that boat from Libby but the confusing part about that is if Widmore somehow contrived for des to be on the island then why can't widmore find the island himself??

Henry Gale's balloon was sponsored by Widmore Corp as well. Maybe Widmore was just experimenting, trying different things under the guise of boat/balloon races in an attempt to find the island.

Hyzepher

If the Swan does in fact hide the island from the outside world then there is no way that Ben knew about it. Otherwise he wouldn't have pretented to Locke that he hadn't entered the numbers when Locke was trapped under the door. I also believe that if the Swan hides the Island then Ben would have ensured that he was in control of that station and not left it to chance by having Des or Locke or whoever control it.

Also, if the island is "so hidden" how come there was never an issue sending the food rations.

Sad Professor

Also, if the island is "so hidden" how come there was never an issue sending the food rations.

I reckon the food drops were dropped by Dharma years ago at the wrong bearing.

Anima

Would it have anything to do with the time stuff I wonder?

Mellor

~A few things that I'm stuck on.

Firstly, we seen John's "suicide" this week. Now, I have a few questions on this, in 5x06 Ms. Hawking said to Jack, "It's John Lockes suicide note", to which Jack replys "I didn't know".
Why did John say this?? The newspaper clipping we seen him reading outside the funeral palour mentions the suicide. Is this an oversight on the writers behalf, or was there something else to it.


The other thing is, Ben kills John after he mentions Eloise Hawking. Where did he get this name from??

Mr.Nice Guy

Mellor wrote: »

~A few things that I'm stuck on.

Firstly, we seen John's "suicide" this week. Now, I have a few questions on this, in 5x06 Ms. Hawking said to Jack, "It's John Lockes suicide note", to which Jack replys "I didn't know".
Why did John say this?? The newspaper clipping we seen him reading outside the funeral palour mentions the suicide. Is this an oversight on the writers behalf, or was there something else to it.

Maybe when Jack says he didn't know he's referring to the fact that Locke wrote a suicide note. Or maybe that's what the writers will claim.

Mellor wrote:

The other thing is, Ben kills John after he mentions Eloise Hawking. Where did he get this name from??

Christian gave Locke her name before he left the island.

With regards to the theory posted earlier, there's some points I find hard to agree with. Such as:

"Widmore came to me. He saved me."
"No, John, he used you! He waited until you showed up so that you could help him get to the island. Charles Widmore is the reason I moved the island. So that he could never find it again. To keep him away so that you could lead." [which are exactly the circumstances under which Ben voluntarily left the island]

Yet according to Christian, Ben wasn't supposed to go at all and he's annoyed Locke let him leave:

"Since when did listening to him (Ben) get you anywhere worth a damn?"

Of course, listening to Ben again gets Locke murdered!

Ben then patiently rebuilt Locke's Faith and self-confidence to the point where he Chose Life and thanked Ben for preventing his suicide. At that point, it was OK for Ben to kill John, knowing that John would be resurrected as "himself" instead of whatever would have happened via suicide.

Suicide is a sin for "ordinary" people in the Christian, Jewish, Muslim, and Buddhist Religions and as I wrote a week or two ago, I was convinced that suicide would not permit John’s entry into Club Messiah.

Presumably murder wouldn't have gotten Locke into Club Messiah either which is exactly what Ben wanted Locke to do to his father. Richard's intervention by suggesting Locke find Sawyer spares him this task.

Therefore, I believe that Ben’s intervention in John’s Suicide proves him to be a Good Guy, willing to do horrifying work in order to further The Island’s, or Jacob’s agenda. I believe that Ben’s “murder” of John was what permitted John to be resurrected, the opposite of what CW wanted. Note that Somebody also wanted Hugo to commit Suicide in “Dave”.

The Island told Locke that Ben was acting against its agenda. Jacob also asked Locke for help and Ben shot Locke and left him for dead. 'I certainly hope he helped you, John'. Did he shoot John to help him too? With friends like him... etc.

Knowing that John would retain his post-Resurrection memories, Ben knew that it was also important for John to hear, prior to his death, that he had, in fact succeeded in nudging Jack toward becoming a Believer.

How would Ben know Locke would retain post-Resurrection memories? I don't buy that. Remember what he said prior to leaving the room - 'I'm really going to miss you, John'. Why would he say that if he didn't believe this was the end of Locke once and for all?

The fact that Ben left Locke in Hanged Mode suggests that he wanted CW (and The O6) to believe that John had, in fact chosen Death - hence the Suicide Scene and the Suicide Note put into Ms H’s hands. I expect that CW will be unpleasantly surprised to find his erstwhile “protege” alive and well on The Island at some point. Theory by Roland

I agree he wanted everyone to believe Locke had chosen death but only because his own sinister plans would be unveiled otherwise. Seems to me Jacob wants Locke to lead the Island and Ben is hellbent on disrupting this plan.

Sad Professor

Mellor wrote: »

Why did John say this?? The newspaper clipping we seen him reading outside the funeral palour mentions the suicide. Is this an oversight on the writers behalf, or was there something else to it.

We never saw the full newspaper clipping Jack was looking at in that episode. We were only able to make out bits of it and there was nothing about suicide afaik. Somebody on the Fuselage later posted what they claimed was the full leaked version from the prop department which did mention suicide. But this was later proved to be foiler.

Psychedelic

Sad Professor wrote: »

Henry Gale's balloon was sponsored by Widmore Corp as well.

Was that mentioned in an episode? i can't remember that.

Hyzepher wrote: »

Also, if the island is "so hidden" how come there was never an issue sending the food rations.

someone metioned in another thread that the food rations might be explained through time travel - maybe the food ration drops were trapped in tme, say they were originaly dropped in the 80's but only landed on the island when the losties were there.....like that experiment faraday did in season 4?