Welcome to World War 3

Sofa_King Good

Diogenes wrote: »

Here's a article from Nov 15th with Hamas taking responsibility for the rocket attacks

" Israeli forces have killed 10 Hamas gunmen. Hamas, and other militant groups, have responded with several days of rocket fire"..."Either there's full commitment to the truce and all its conditions, or the resistance will have a position on every Zionist crime."..."Mahmoud Zahar, Gaza's most senior Hamas leader said in a Friday sermon: "If you want to leave the truce, we are ready. And if you want to continue it, then abide by it."".
"
The truce was outlined in six points:

• Egypt sets the starting time of the truce (June 19 at 6 a.m.).
• Israel reopens the Karni and Sufa commercial crossings into the Gaza Strip on June 22, with the flow of goods set at 30 per cent of the levels before Hamas took over the territory in January 2006.
• Hamas guarantees that all Palestinian factions abide by the prohibition on the use of violence against Israel.
• By June 29, Israel is to lift all limits on the flow of goods through the Karni and Sufa crossings, with the exceptions of materials that could be used for explosives.
• Hamas and Fatah reach an arrangement on administering the Rafah crossing between Gaza and Egypt.
• Talks on the Rafah crossings and negotiations to over Shalit’s release as part of a prisoner swap with Hamas are to continue."

Sofa_King Good

King Mob wrote: »

I never stated they were the solution. Neither are continued rocket attacks. Imagine that, violence not solving a complex situation.

I couldn't agree more

King Mob wrote: »

Where did you hear this initially? I'm somewhat skeptical of this claim, given you pretty biased outlook on the situation.

I'll find a reference again when I have time.

King Mob wrote: »

So then Hamas have no right to be outraged and bare some responsibility for civilians being killed by Israeli attacks?

Some but not all. There are degrees of responsibility, Israel as the aggressor and cause of a massacre right at the top. Hamas are not innocent, but their actions could be viewed as desperate, and not unknown for an oppressed people.

King Mob wrote: »

I don't and never claimed to.

You don'y agree in principle that collective punishment is wrong?

King Mob wrote: »

I do and have done.

This has got to be like the seventh time I've asked: but where's the conspiracy?

I would say there is a pretty obvious historic and current conspiracy against the Palestinan people. Especially now with the lack of critical voices in the Arab world

Sofa_King Good

Diogenes wrote: »

. So answer this, you do think Hamas bares some responsibility for the civilian deaths in Gaza? Yes or No.

Yes. They also are the enemies of peace.

King Mob

Sofa_King Good wrote: »

I'll find a reference again when I have time.

And I'll stay skeptical till then.

Sofa_King Good wrote: »

Some but not all. There are degrees of responsibility, Israel as the aggressor and cause of a massacre right at the top. Hamas are not innocent, but their actions could be viewed as desperate, and not unknown for an oppressed people.

And I don't agree with Hamas' actions or positions.

Sofa_King Good wrote: »

You don'y agree in principle that collective punishment is wrong?

Yes I have mentioned several time that I don't agree with Israel's actions either.

Sofa_King Good wrote: »

I would say there is a pretty obvious historic and current conspiracy against the Palestinan people. Especially now with the lack of critical voices in the Arab world

Evidence? Reasoning?

Sofa_King Good

King Mob wrote: »

Evidence? Reasoning?

The Jewish state of Israel, by definition has to exclude the indigineous population. Denying refugees the right to return http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_return#Palestinian

r

King Mob

Sofa_King Good wrote: »

The Jewish state of Israel, by definition has to exclude the indigineous population. Denying refugees the right to return http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_return#Palestinian

r

So then you have evidence that the UN and Israel are conspiring against Palestine?

Who exactly is part of this conspiracy? And have you any evidence to this effect?

Sofa_King Good

King Mob wrote: »

So then you have evidence that the UN and Israel are conspiring against Palestine?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Oxford-Childrens-History-World-Grant/dp/0199115745

Diogenes

Sofa_King Good wrote: »

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Oxford-Childrens-History-World-Grant/dp/0199115745

If this is what you are using as a reference book it would explain your overly simplistic worldview.

King Mob

Sofa_King Good wrote: »

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Oxford-Childrens-History-World-Grant/dp/0199115745

So no, you have no evidence or reasoning?

Sofa_King Good

this partially explains some aspects, enjoy. http://ksgnotes1.harvard.edu/Research/wpaper.nsf/rwp/RWP06-011/$File/rwp_06_011_walt.pdf

http://ksgnotes1.harvard.edu/Research/wpaper.nsf/rwp/RWP06-011

King Mob

Sofa_King Good wrote: »

this partially explains some aspects, enjoy. http://ksgnotes1.harvard.edu/Research/wpaper.nsf/rwp/RWP06-011/$File/rwp_06_011_walt.pdf

Holy crap there are lobbyists in America pushing for pro Israeli policies?:eek:



Where's the conspiracy exactly?
Still no evidence of a conspiracy between Israel and UN against Palestine?


Edit: http://www.hks.harvard.edu/research/working_papers/abstract_dersh1.htm a response to that very paper.

Kernel

Diogenes wrote: »

You really are going to describe sustained rocket attacks that killed 4 Israeli's in the past few days, as the equivalent of a small child with a stick?

Is your analogy creator just like broken?

No, in comparison to the military might and backing which Israel has, attacking Palestine is much the same as attacking a child with a pointy stick. Self evident I would have thought.

No matter how irritating or disruptive the child is, people don't want to see that child beaten by a strong man. Unless such people are cruel bastards without a shred of humanity of course.

humanji

Do you know many children who want to wipe you off the face of the planet? Comparing Palestine to a child is a false analogy which tries to paint them as defenseless and innocent.

A better analogy is that both countries are rabid dogs, one big and one small. You'd assume the big dog will tear the little one apart, but that's not to say the little dog won't tear chucks out of the big dog if he gets a chance.

Diogenes

Kernel wrote: »

No, in comparison to the military might and backing which Israel has, attacking Palestine is much the same as attacking a child with a pointy stick. Self evident I would have thought.

No matter how irritating or disruptive the child is, people don't want to see that child beaten by a strong man. Unless such people are cruel bastards without a shred of humanity of course.

A child who fires dozens of rockets a day at you, and throws suicide bombers at innocent civilians.

It's a really dumb analogy kernel.

Kernel

humanji wrote: »

Do you know many children who want to wipe you off the face of the planet? Comparing Palestine to a child is a false analogy which tries to paint them as defenseless and innocent.

Nobody is innocent humanji, but defenceless? Near enough.

Diogenes wrote:

A child who fires dozens of rockets a day at you, and throws suicide bombers at innocent civilians.

It's a really dumb analogy kernel.

So such a response from Britain during the IRA troubles; say bombing the **** out of Dublin, cutting off our water/gas and shelling refugee camps would have been an appropriate response Diogenes? Israel is backed by the US, pumping money and armaments into a country which possesses nuclear weapons. The sophistication and might of the Israeli war machine in comparison to the Palestinian militia means my analogy stands.

I'm no fan of Hamas or any fanatics, but I can call a bully when I see one.

Diogenes

Kernel wrote: »

So such a response from Britain during the IRA troubles; say bombing the **** out of Dublin, cutting off our water/gas and shelling refugee camps would have been an appropriate response Diogenes? comparison to the Palestinian militia means my analogy stands.

Would you care to consider the death toil from thirty years of the IRA's campaign runs in total (not just those killed by the IRA, but in total) at around 3,000.

The death toil from this conflict in the past five years far exceeds that.

Also suppose the IRA were funded by the Irish government, who stated they wanted to wipe the UK off the face of the earth?

But hey, you have your analogy and don't let anyone take that away from you.

Israel is backed by the US, pumping money and armaments into a country which possesses nuclear weapons. The sophistication and might of the Israeli war machine in

And Hamas never got funding from Syria did they? And there's never been support from Eygpt. Hell when he was alive Saddam Hussein used to pay out $10,000 to the families of suicide bombers after each mission.

munchester29

Kernel wrote: »

So such a response from Britain during the IRA troubles; say bombing the **** out of Dublin, cutting off our water/gas and shelling refugee camps would have been an appropriate response Diogenes.

The question is what would have happened to Ireland if the IRA had fired over 3000 rockets within a few months on British cities, and had suicide bomber campaigns on a weekly basis in London…

I think Ireland would have been bombed back to the Stone Age.

Kernel

Diogenes wrote: »

Would you care to consider the death toil from thirty years of the IRA's campaign runs in total (not just those killed by the IRA, but in total) at around 3,000.

The death toil from this conflict in the past five years far exceeds that.

The death toll only exceeds that if you count palestinian dead. And that's not what the point is about, is it? How many Jews were killed? Israelis?

Diogenes wrote: »

And Hamas never got funding from Syria did they? And there's never been support from Eygpt. Hell when he was alive Saddam Hussein used to pay out $10,000 to the families of suicide bombers after each mission.

Evidence of Syrian government funding Hamas?

Evidence of Egypt funding Hamas?

Prove Saddam paid money to families of Hamas. I want verifiable bank records, not some ****e from CBS news or Rumsfeld's war-pig mouth. Thanks.

Kernel

munchester29 wrote: »

The question is what would have happened to Ireland if the IRA had fired over 3000 rockets within a few months on British cities, and had suicide bomber campaigns on a weekly basis in London…

I take your point, however, in the spirit of Conspiracy Theories, I will have to ask you for verifiable proof of 3000 rockets being fired. Oh, and it can only be from a source I consider reputable.

King Mob

So you're allowed to make unverifiable claims and get pissed off when we ask but demand diogenes verify his claims? Weird.

Mahatma coat

no Mob, the requiremnt for proof applies to both sides of the debate, especially when numbers are trotted out

Aye Matey!

Kernel wrote: »

I want verifiable bank records, not some ****e from CBS news or Rumsfeld's war-pig mouth.

War-pig mouth. Brilliant.

King Mob

Mahatma coat wrote: »

no Mob, the requiremnt for proof applies to both sides of the debate, especially when numbers are trotted out

Really? Who knew?
Does saying read book x by whackjob y count as actual evidence?

Mahatma coat

depends, if teh person referencing said book has read it and can give a reference to the bit in the book relevant to their point, then yeah

Sofa_King Good

Here is another analogy - Comparing the existing situation of Palestine/Israel to apartheid South Africa.

King Mob wrote: »

book x

= Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid

King Mob wrote: »

whackjob y

= Former American President and Nobel Peace Prize Winner Jimmy Carter.

From the book:

"There are two interrelated obstacles to permanent peace in the Middle East:1. Some Israelis believe they have the right to confiscate and colonize Palestinian land and try to justify the sustained subjugation and persecution of increasingly hopeless and aggravated Palestinians; and
2. Some Palestinians react by honoring suicide bombers as martyrs to be rewarded in heaven and consider the killing of Israelis as victories.
In turn, Israel responds with retribution and oppression, and militant Palestinians refuse to recognize the legitimacy of Israel and vow to destroy the nation. The cycle of distrust and violence is sustained, and efforts for peace are frustrated."

". The unwavering official policy of the United States since Israel became a state has been that its borders must coincide with those prevailing from 1949 until 1967 (unless modified by mutually agreeable land swaps), specified in the unanimously adopted U.N. Resolution 242, which mandates Israel's withdrawal from occupied territories. This obligation was reconfirmed by Israel's leaders in agreements negotiated in 1978 at Camp David and in 1993 at Oslo, for which they received the Nobel Peace Prize, and both of these commitments were officially ratified by the Israeli government.... Palestinian leaders unequivocally accepted this proposal, but Israel has officially rejected its key provisions with unacceptable caveats and prerequisites."

"The sovereignty of all Middle East nations and sanctity of international borders must be honored. There is little doubt that accommodation with Palestinians can bring full Arab recognition of Israel and its right to live in peace"

"The overriding problem is that, for more than a quarter century, the actions of some Israeli leaders have been in direct conflict with the official policies of the United States, the international community, and their own negotiated agreements. Regardless of whether Palestinians had no formalized government, one headed by Yasir Arafat or Mahmoud Abbas, or one with Abbas as president and Hamas controlling the parliament and cabinet, Israel's continued control and colonization of Palestinian land have been the primary obstacles to a comprehensive peace agreement in the Holy Land. In order to perpetuate the occupation, Israeli forces have deprived their unwilling subjects of basic human rights. No objective person could personally observe existing conditions in the West Bank and dispute these statements."


"Two other interrelated factors have contributed to the perpetuation of violence and regional upheaval: the condoning of illegal Israeli actions from a submissive White House and U.S. Congress during recent years, and the deference with which other international leaders permit this unofficial U.S. policy in the Middle East to prevail."

"because of powerful political, economic, and religious forces in the United States, Israeli government decisions are rarely questioned or condemned, voices from Jerusalem dominate in our media, and most American citizens are unaware of circumstances in the occupied territories"

"The United States has used its U.N. Security Council veto more than forty times to block resolutions critical of Israel. Some of these vetoes have brought international discredit on the United States, and there is little doubt that the lack of a persistent effort to resolve the Palestinian issue is a major source of anti-American sentiment and terrorist activity throughout the Middle East and the Islamic world."

"A new factor in the region is that the Palestinian election of January 2006 gave Hamas members control of the parliament and a cabinet headed by the prime minister...Israel and the United States reacted by announcing a policy of isolating and destabilizing the new government. Elected officials are denied travel permits to participate in parliamentary affairs, Gaza is effectively isolated, and every effort is made to block humanitarian funds to Palestinians, to prevent their right to employment or commercial trade, and to deny them access to Israel and the outside world."

There is more...

Sofa_King Good

All from; http://www.amazon.com/Palestine-Peace-Apartheid-Jimmy-Carter/dp/0743285026

"In order to achieve its goals, Israel has decided to avoid any peace negotiations and to escape even the mild restraints of the United States by taking unilateral action, called "convergence" or "realignment," to carve out for itself the choice portions of the West Bank, leaving Palestinians destitute within a small and fragmented remnant of their own land. The holding of almost 10,000 Arab prisoners and the destructive military response to the capture of three Israeli soldiers have aroused global concern about the hair-trigger possibility of a regional war being launched"

"A system of apartheid, with two peoples occupying the same land but completely separated from each other, with Israelis totally dominant and suppressing violence by depriving Palestinians of their basic human rights. This is the policy now being followed,"

"The bottom line is this: Peace will come to Israel and the Middle East only when the Israeli government is willing to comply with international law, with the Roadmap for Peace, with official American policy, with the wishes of a majority of its own citizens—and honor its own previous commitments— by accepting its legal borders."

"The United States is squandering international prestige and goodwill and intensifying global anti-American terrorism by unofficially condoning or abetting the Israeli confiscation and colonization of Palestinian territories. It will be a tragedy—for the Israelis, the Palestinians, and the world—if peace is rejected and a system of oppression, apartheid, and sustained violence is permitted to prevail."

Sofa_King Good

So nobody is gonna take the view opposite to this just just to be the opposite of my opinion.

Guess it means there is nothing to argue against. No baselss Jimmy Carter Bigot slurs? nothing?

Gaspode

D

Sofa_King Good

ME: The cease fire had expired. Don't you think that placing an occupied land under siege constitutes a declaration of war? http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/och...17_english.pdf, this was the "diet" the Palestinian people were on.

Diogenes wrote: »

Do you want me to try and defend the blockade? I won't. Will you defend the hundreds of rocket attacks by Hamas in the previous few weeks. There are reports in the press today, that Hamas shelled border crossings when they opened, because the blockade firmed up their stranglehold on power in the Strip.

Are you really going to continue grossly oversimplifying this complex conflict?

I must ask, do you still stand by your claim that it was Hamas that violated the cease-fire? ANd if not, what this changes for you?

Sofa_King Good

Because this has been the result
http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/specialsession/9/docs/S-9resolution12jan08.pdf

Is it still justified in your opinion?

This explains were the cease-fire was violated

Nov 4th - http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/nov/21/israel-palestine-gaza

Nov 5th - http://www.maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=ShowDetails&ID=33024