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Effects of the recession on religious attendance

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13

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    #62
    SimpleSam06
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,048 ✭✭✭SimpleSam06


    CDfm wrote: »
    Why are you picking on the RCC. Its where we worship as a community as the catholic communion. Its what we do and its important to us.
    I'm sure it is, you wouldn't be contributing otherwise, now would you?
    CDfm wrote: »
    BTW - are their atheist groups providing whatever service you propose?
    If you call not scalping people out of cash a service, then yes, they are.


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    #63
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    SimpleSam06 wrote: »
    I'm sure it is, you wouldn't be contributing otherwise, now would you?


    If you call not scalping people out of cash a service, then yes, they are.
    Well yes we do worship in congregations and for our communities and our faith.

    Its our right and we are not doing anything illegal- its what we do.

    Contributions are voluntary and for the most part modest and the churches are largely self supporting.A bit like the GAA in that respect.


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    #64
    Keith186
    Registered Users Posts: 3,200 ✭✭✭Keith186


    SimpleSam06 wrote: »
    Title says it all, so what do you think it will be? Increased attendance with the hard times ahead, or reduced attendance on the basis that its pointless? I ask because I was talking to a priest the last day, and he didn't seem unduly concerned about the recession. When I asked him why he felt that way, he said "wolves at the gate bring the lambs to the shepherd".

    Tough question...

    Personally I think the longer it goes on the more people will find themselves in hardship and will turn to religion to pray that they will get by, won't get evicted and so on.

    On the other hand there seems to be so many people leaving the country which will probably increase but I would hazard a guess and say that a lot of them would not be attendees had they remained in the country.


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    #65
    Keith186
    Registered Users Posts: 3,200 ✭✭✭Keith186


    CDfm wrote: »
    Well yes we do worship in congregations and for our communities and our faith.

    Its our right and we are not doing anything illegal- its what we do.

    Fair enough it's not illegal but the Christian faith does have a bloody history.

    The most sadistic torture 'contraptions' I ever seen where used by the Christians on suspected witches and that's not very nice now.

    Things have changed now but I only think they have changed so they keep in line with how the human race developed into smarter beings so the RCC adopted to keep people as part of their faith but why adopt a faith to suit people's changes?


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    #66
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Keith186 wrote: »
    Fair enough it's not illegal but the Christian faith does have a bloody history.

    The most sadistic torture 'contraptions' I ever seen where used by the Christians on suspected witches and that's not very nice now.

    You are confusing church law with state law.

    Witchcraft trials in England came into vogue at the instigation of one of the Kings -James I think who wrote a book on it which was followed as practice.So it was a criminal issue not a church issue.

    Which hunts were instigated by individuals and not by the church and used the state apparatus.It is important to distinguish this.

    I would be interested in seeing your sources - interestingly enough the native irish didnt believe in witches but banshees and faeries - witch trials in Ireland were part of the "english" settlements etc.


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    #67
    Húrin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭Húrin


    SimpleSam06 wrote: »
    Not exactly pocket change to bang them together either ha? I wonder how many dinners Galway Cathedral would have bought. :P Ah no I know the priests only want to do good in the world and putting people in overwhelming surroundings in no way influences their contributions to the continuation of the mother church.
    There is enough money in the world to both build churches and feed everyone. Don't blame religion, blame capitalism. Who needs another shopping centre? Another cathedral to consumerism?
    Keith186 wrote: »
    Things have changed now but I only think they have changed so they keep in line with how the human race developed into smarter beings so the RCC adopted to keep people as part of their faith but why adopt a faith to suit people's changes?
    The idea that humans have developed into smarter beings than they were 500 years ago is ridiculous. There is no biological evidence to support it.


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    #68
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Húrin wrote: »
    There is enough money in the world to both build churches and feed everyone. Don't blame religion, blame capitalism. Who needs another shopping centre? Another cathedral to consumerism?
    Last month, I spent three weeks working in Jakarta, staying in a hotel in the city's chinese district in which christianity is one of the dominant religions. Around the back of the hotel, there's a large, recently-built christian church whose imposing entrance is blocked by eight-foot tall steel gates surmounted with spikes, and which is guarded day and night.

    There's quite a contrast between the sharp, blinding-white, rich and inaccessible church, and the desperately poor shanty town immediately behind it, in which there are kids sleeping on the streets, household refuse literally three feet deep and raw sewage flowing straight into fetid and slow-moving canals.

    Why build yet another church when, around the corner, there are kids who need a roof?


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    #69
    SimpleSam06
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,048 ✭✭✭SimpleSam06


    Húrin wrote: »
    There is enough money in the world to both build churches and feed everyone. Don't blame religion, blame capitalism. Who needs another shopping centre? Another cathedral to consumerism?
    Shopping centres provide employment, enabling people to feed their families and ensure that their children grow up to become educated enough to make society a better place. If you call that consumerism, I'll take two, thanks. And sure since there is enough to go round, lets dump a few boatloads of cash in the Liffey, sure inflation is on the up.

    Churches on the other hand are farcical and disastrous wastes of effort that serve only one purpose, the continuation of an organisation that has, among other things, been shown to provide harbour to child molesters at an institutional level. Of course the church is swift to point out the many good things it has done, without realising that had its resources been properly directed, the bad things that happened to make the good things neccessary, might never have happened.

    I find it extremely distasteful to see the religious licking their florid chops at what they assume will be a "great return" to religion, against a backdrop of what looks like the worst swathe of human misery to strike the world since the 40s.

    I find it even more distasteful to see their sneering disdain for the "hubris" of mankind, and oh how the mighty are falling, isn't God great ha, while failing to see that at least most people are proud of what they have achieved, rather than proud of the achievements of stone age goat herders.

    Those who see others in trouble and prey on that weakness in the worst way should not lightly be tolerated.


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    #70
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Keith186 wrote: »
    Fair enough it's not illegal but the Christian faith does have a bloody history.

    The most sadistic torture 'contraptions' I ever seen where used by the Christians on suspected witches and that's not very nice now.

    Things have changed now but I only think they have changed so they keep in line with how the human race developed into smarter beings so the RCC adopted to keep people as part of their faith but why adopt a faith to suit people's changes?

    Given that this thread is about religiosity in Ireland I think you're overegging your pudding a bit. There were only 4 witches ever executed in Ireland which, while still 4 too many in my book, is pretty civilised for the 14th Century.
    CDfm wrote:
    Witchcraft trials in England came into vogue at the instigation of one of the Kings -James I think who wrote a book on it which was followed as practice.So it was a criminal issue not a church issue.

    Which hunts were instigated by individuals and not by the church and used the state apparatus.It is important to distinguish this.

    In Ireland the 3 witches burnt in Kilkenny were in the 14th Century (at least two and a half centuries before James I) at the instigation of the Bishop of Ossory, Richard Ledrede. He picked up the nasty witch hunting habit (pun intended) from the friars in France who were much more prolific.

    Sorry, there's no way history will let you pin this one on the Brits.


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    #71
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    PDN wrote: »
    In Ireland the 3 witches burnt in Kilkenny were in the 14th Century (at least two and a half centuries before James I) at the instigation of the Bishop of Ossory, Richard Ledrede. He picked up the nasty witch hunting habit (pun intended) from the friars in France who were much more prolific.

    Sorry, there's no way history will let you pin this one on the Brits.

    Richard Ledrede is a real Irish Gaelic Name- not - sounds a bit anglo norman to me.

    In Irish culture you had fairies,banshees changelings and stuff. Remember the case of the killing of Bridget Cleary in Tipperary in the 1890s. I am not saying it didnt exist -but in Ireland withcraft trials were associated with the Anglo-Normans. Like Florence Newton of Youghal -another walled town and Anglo Norman settlement.


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    #72
    DublinWriter
    Registered Users Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭DublinWriter


    SimpleSam06 wrote: »
    I find it extremely distasteful to see the religious licking their florid chops at what they assume will be a "great return" to religion, against a backdrop of what looks like the worst swathe of human misery to strike the world since the 40s.
    Hear hear. Very well said.

    By the same argument, should we expect church attendance to go downward when things start picking up economically?

    If Einstein said "God doesn't play dice" then we can infer that God doesn't keep score either.


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    #73
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    SimpleSam06 wrote: »
    I find it extremely distasteful to see the religious licking their florid chops at what they assume will be a "great return" to religion, against a backdrop of what looks like the worst swathe of human misery to strike the world since the 40s.

    I thought the thread was about the effects of the economic recession in Ireland. Obviously you've got something else in mind. You think the credit crunch is going to cause more human misery than the Cultural Revolution, the Rwandan Genocide, famine in Ethiopia, the spread of AIDS, the Iran Iraq war etc? Flipping heck! You make Run to da hills sound like an optimist!


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    #74
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    SimpleSam06 wrote: »
    I find it extremely distasteful to see the religious licking their florid chops at what they assume will be a "great return" to religion, against a backdrop of what looks like the worst swathe of human misery to strike the world since the 40s.
    Hee youth of today and all that. Things haven't yet reached the levels of unemployment of the 40's. Hell they're not even on par with the levels in the 80's. Things may be bad, but they're not that bad.


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    #75
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    SimpleSam06 wrote: »

    Churches on the other hand are farcical and disastrous wastes of effort that serve only one purpose, the continuation of an organisation that has, among other things, been shown to provide harbour to child molesters at an institutional level.

    I find it extremely distasteful to see the religious licking their florid chops at what they assume will be a "great return" to religion, against a backdrop of what looks like the worst swathe of human misery to strike the world since the 40s.

    I find it even more distasteful to see their sneering disdain for the "hubris" of mankind, and oh how the mighty are falling, isn't God great ha, while failing to see that at least most people are proud of what they have achieved, rather than proud of the achievements of stone age goat herders.

    What religion are you posting about.Not one I know.

    Churches were reeling about the sex abuse scandals- while the civil authorities that also knew about the abuse failed to act. By the same logic you have we need to attack the Dept of Health and Education.Where are the prosecutions of civil servants and regulators and doctors etc that were monitoring and were aware of the problems. Show me the prosecutions.Why are there not prosecutions?

    The RCC exists for its members and churches are where we meet to express our faith. If you dont like it well tough.

    Where are all these people from churches licking their chops - post your sources - if there are Ive not seen them.


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    #76
    Húrin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭Húrin


    SimpleSam06 wrote: »
    Shopping centres provide employment, enabling people to feed their families and ensure that their children grow up to become educated enough to make society a better place. If you call that consumerism, I'll take two, thanks.
    Like a lot of people who are not market fundamentalists, I think that things are pretty bad for our culture if the only legitimate way to feed people is in such a trickling fashion. 1 for the poor, 99 for the rich, eh?
    Churches on the other hand are farcical and disastrous wastes of effort that serve only one purpose, the continuation of an organisation that has, among other things, been shown to provide harbour to child molesters at an institutional level.
    Catholic Church =/= all religion.
    I find it extremely distasteful to see the religious licking their florid chops at what they assume will be a "great return" to religion, against a backdrop of what looks like the worst swathe of human misery to strike the world since the 40s.
    I find it distasteful that you are so petulant about people finding happiness in religion during hard times.

    This "great swath of misery" is entirely a creation of market fundamentalism. It's not some natural disaster. It's the creation of the same system that builds endless shopping centres, justified by the pretence that they're improving the lot of humanity.
    I find it even more distasteful to see their sneering disdain for the "hubris" of mankind, and oh how the mighty are falling, isn't God great ha, while failing to see that at least most people are proud of what they have achieved, rather than proud of the achievements of stone age goat herders.
    By the mighty I don't think that anyone means young office workers who will not be able to pay the mortgage. Rather, those who made huge fortunes on markets off the backs of others without doing very much work for themselves. Why should anyone admire people like that?
    Those who see others in trouble and prey on that weakness in the worst way should not lightly be tolerated.
    I'd love to hear about what kind of intolerance you have in store for the wolves of compassion.


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    #77
    SimpleSam06
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,048 ✭✭✭SimpleSam06


    CDfm wrote: »
    By the same logic you have we need to attack the Dept of Health and Education.
    I am not sparing them. If a doctor or teacher had committed the crimes however you may rest assured their unions would not lift a finger in their defence.
    CDfm wrote: »
    The RCC exists for its members and churches are where we meet to express our faith. If you dont like it well tough.
    See your problem arises when enough people "don't like it". Then its tough for you.
    CDfm wrote: »
    Where are all these people from churches licking their chops - post your sources - if there are Ive not seen them.
    Yes, the pope has been spamming everyone with emails about church attendance. :rolleyes: Ten seconds googling reveals:
    “It’s a wonderful time, a great evangelistic opportunity for us,” said the Rev. A. R. Bernard, founder and senior pastor of the Christian Cultural Center in Brooklyn, New York’s largest evangelical congregation, where regulars are arriving earlier to get a seat. “When people are shaken to the core, it can open doors.”

    “I found it very exciting, and I called up that fellow to tell him so,” said the Rev. Don MacKintosh, a Seventh Day Adventist televangelist in California who contacted Dr. Beckworth a few weeks ago after hearing word of his paper from another preacher. “We need to leverage this moment, because every Christian revival in this country’s history has come off a period of rampant greed and fear. That’s what we’re in today — the time of fear and greed.”
    Greed indeed. And lets not forget that research paper mentioned in the article "Praying for a recession".
    Húrin wrote: »
    Like a lot of people who are not market fundamentalists, I think that things are pretty bad for our culture if the only legitimate way to feed people is in such a trickling fashion. 1 for the poor, 99 for the rich, eh?
    What exactly is market fundamentalism? And who do you think runs all the shops in those supermarkets - the units are leased out individually? Independent entrepreneurs. So its more like 20 for the poor, 60 for the middle class, and 20 for the rich, which is still a lot better than 0 for the poor and 100 for the rich.

    If your protest is against monolithic groups like Dunnes, then you might have a point - lack of competition in an area as crucial as general food supply is extremely toxic. Don't confuse the two, however.
    Húrin wrote: »
    Catholic Church =/= all religion.
    Heh. I'm far less charitable to the likes of Islam, if thats any comfort.
    Húrin wrote: »
    I find it distasteful that you are so petulant about people finding happiness in religion during hard times.
    People were finding happiness long before the Church, Christ, or even Moses. That certain parasites with their little tin gods latched onto the emotion and claimed responsibility for it does not mean they really are. And people will still be finding happiness long after these religious icons are little more than footnotes in early history.
    Húrin wrote: »
    This "great swath of misery" is entirely a creation of market fundamentalism. It's not some natural disaster. It's the creation of the same system that builds endless shopping centres, justified by the pretence that they're improving the lot of humanity.
    Again with the mysterious market fundamentalism. The current situation was mostly caused by relaxing government regulation on financial institutions, so if you mean that shopping centres were enabled by government regulations, perhaps, but then again hospitals and universities happened because of government regulations as well.

    The existence of shopping centres is the most efficient means of distribution of resources to the general population. Corner stores and comely maidens dancing at the crossroads are a logistical impossibility in this day and age, unless you think you could come up with something better.

    I do find it extremely funny how the religious seem to see them as a challenge to their own far less useful constructions however, like some of the comments on the LHC gallery page.
    Húrin wrote: »
    By the mighty I don't think that anyone means young office workers who will not be able to pay the mortgage.
    Of course they do. The ones who trusted the advice of their families and colleagues, who bought overpriced shoeboxes they can no longer afford, while missing their communions, those are the ones that the church sees as its future base.
    Húrin wrote: »
    I'd love to hear about what kind of intolerance you have in store for the wolves of compassion.
    Tolerance is a very much abused word in our society, especially with regard to ostensible "religions", a case in point being the "church" of scientology. Besides, if either compassion or faith were truly foundations of religion, the various sects worldwide should have no difficulty in turning over all their worldly assets to the relative secular governments for proper public disposal, and let their sky beard put food on the table.

    Sure what does an omnipotent deity need with a fallible human organisation to tell people about him after all?


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    #78
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    SimpleSam06 wrote: »
    I am not sparing them. If a doctor or teacher had committed the crimes however you may rest assured their unions would not lift a finger in their defence.


    See your problem arises when enough people "don't like it". Then its tough for you.


    Yes, the pope has been spamming everyone with emails about church attendance. :rolleyes: Ten seconds googling reveals:

    Greed indeed. And lets not forget that research paper mentioned in the article "Praying for a recession".


    I am a tad confused. Doctors and civil servants were responsible for the monitoring and regulation of intitutions. I am not defending anyone involved and am all for prosecuting wrong doers - but I dont think that the civil and secular authorities that presided over these institutions should be allowed to get off scott free.

    We know that paedophiles are attracted to vulnerable children and will do whatever the can to infiltrate anything including schools etc run by and on behalf of the state.These people had a regulatory and supervisory role.Yet we are not told who they are.

    Why should the people at the top get of scott free.They are not mentioned by you.

    Your NY Times link is not related to the Catholic Church.Its the Sevent Day Adventists. I dont think anyone is praying for a recession except Michael O'Leary from Ryanair- I read he hopes it will eliminate his competition. So if you are going to attack Catholicism you should have factual information that you can back up and it should be accurate.


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    #79
    SimpleSam06
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,048 ✭✭✭SimpleSam06


    CDfm wrote: »
    Why should the people at the top get of scott free.They are not mentioned by you.
    You won't divert the discussion by trying to blame doctors and officials for priests raping children.
    CDfm wrote: »
    Your NY Times link is not related to the Catholic Church.Its the Sevent Day Adventists.
    Had you bothered to read the article, there is discussion of several denominations. Besides, who are you trying to fool.

    Seriously, let the religious become heroes of the hour, save the world from a disastrous depression by turning over all assets. What, it wasn't your fault? So were the problems which required those other strings-attached charitable works your fault? God will whip up a few new cathedrals in every city and town in no time, or do you doubt his power?

    It would beat kneeling smugly while the lost sheep return to the shepherd and thence to their inevitable final destination, his employer's dinner table.


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    #80
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    SimpleSam06 wrote: »
    You won't divert the discussion by trying to blame doctors and officials for priests raping children.


    Had you bothered to read the article, there is discussion of several denominations. Besides, who are you trying to fool.

    My own view is that child molesters/rapists should be hanged.I constantly post that the punishments are not harsh enough.

    I cant believe that you have state officials and police officers who were aware of what was going on not being held to account.

    The regulators didnt regulate and the supervisors didnt supervise - they got paid and get pensions and should be named and shamed.Thats the only way to ensure such scandals wont happen again.

    I am sorry you disagree but they should be named and shamed.

    I dont see huge queues of people -but I do know that Catholic food kitchens are providing increased services in Dublin largely funded by private donations. Can you tell me if the church dont provide food for the homeless who will?


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    #81
    SimpleSam06
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,048 ✭✭✭SimpleSam06


    CDfm wrote: »
    I am sorry you disagree but they should be named and shamed.
    Strawman fail.
    CDfm wrote: »
    I dont see huge queues of people -but I do know that Catholic food kitchens are providing increased services in Dublin largely funded by private donations. Can you tell me if the church dont provide food for the homeless who will?
    Here, quote back to me the social welfare bill for the state in 2008 like a good man.

    This is why I gave up arguing with the religious, its like beating up a quadraplegic; too easy and utterly pointless.

    Bah.

    /out


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    #82
    Húrin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭Húrin


    CDfm wrote: »
    My own view is that child molesters/rapists should be hanged.
    What the hell? What is this based on, besides anger? People who are executed never get another chance.


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    #83
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    CDfm wrote: »
    My own view is that child molesters/rapists should be hanged. I constantly post that the punishments are not harsh enough.
    Reminds me of a case I heard about last year in the USA in which a 16yo gave his 14yo girlfriend a blowjob and was had up for child abuse, jailed for ten years and will have a record as a sex offender for life. You'd hang him, would you?
    CDfm wrote: »
    Can you tell me if the church dont provide food for the homeless who will?
    I worked part-time for the Dublin Simon for five years and one of the services we offered was the nightly soup-run, where we travelled around Dublin, handing out soup and sandwiches to homeless people in doorways, under bridges and so on.

    I don't recall seeing any bishops or priests on the streets doing anything similar. In fact, of my group, only two out of the ten were church-goers, the rest were agnostics or atheists.


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    #84
    Húrin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭Húrin


    robindch wrote: »
    I worked part-time for the Dublin Simon for five years and one of the services we offered was the nightly soup-run, where we travelled around Dublin, handing out soup and sandwiches to homeless people in doorways, under bridges and so on.

    I don't recall seeing any bishops or priests on the streets doing anything similar. In fact, of my group, only two out of the ten were church-goers, the rest were agnostics or atheists.
    Indeed, both religious and secular organisations care for the homeless in Ireland. Silly CDfm!


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    #85
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    robindch wrote: »
    Reminds me of a case I heard about last year in the USA in which a 16yo gave his 14yo girlfriend a blowjob and was had up for child abuse, jailed for ten years and will have a record as a sex offender for life. You'd hang him, would you?I worked part-time for the Dublin Simon for five years and one of the services we offered was the nightly soup-run, where we travelled around Dublin, handing out soup and sandwiches to homeless people in doorways, under bridges and so on.

    I don't recall seeing any bishops or priests on the streets doing anything similar. In fact, of my group, only two out of the ten were church-goers, the rest were agnostics or atheists.


    In this context I am posting about paedophile child abusers- its a bit offputting to read posts suggesting that Catholics were not affected or dont condemn this without reservation.Many are like me and wonder why the civil authorities hid this from us.You can delegate authority but not responsibility- which is what the civil authorities want to do.

    I am aware of the US case - its not the same issue.

    I know a lot atheists who are very good and charitable people. I know Protestants in V de P - but it provided a structure for groups to grow.

    http://www.vincentians.ie/DePaulTrust/DePaulBackground.htm


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    #86
    Keith186
    Registered Users Posts: 3,200 ✭✭✭Keith186


    Húrin wrote: »
    There is enough money in the world to both build churches and feed everyone. Don't blame religion, blame capitalism. Who needs another shopping centre? Another cathedral to consumerism?


    The idea that humans have developed into smarter beings than they were 500 years ago is ridiculous. There is no biological evidence to support it.

    I didn't mean developed as such but with all the communication these days the people have more information compared with when RCC started the faith.


    CDfm & PDN, point taken about witches. Thanks.


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    #87
    Húrin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭Húrin


    Keith186 wrote: »
    I didn't mean developed as such but with all the communication these days the people have more information compared with when RCC started the faith.

    Do you mean information in general or information about religious beliefs?


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    #88
    g5fd6ow0hseima
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,787 ✭✭✭g5fd6ow0hseima


    SimpleSam06 wrote: »
    Title says it all, so what do you think it will be? Increased attendance with the hard times ahead, or reduced attendance on the basis that its pointless? I ask because I was talking to a priest the last day, and he didn't seem unduly concerned about the recession. When I asked him why he felt that way, he said "wolves at the gate bring the lambs to the shepherd".
    Typical catholic church


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    #89
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Crosby Cold Bum wrote: »
    Typical catholic church
    I dont know any priest who speaks like that. Its makey upey anecdotal stuff.


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    #90
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    CDfm wrote: »
    Its makey upey anecdotal stuff.
    Coincidentally a perfect description of what the priest bases his sermons on!


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    #91
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Dades wrote: »
    Coincidentally a perfect description of what the priest bases his sermons on!
    Touche Dades.


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