Effects of the recession on religious attendance

SimpleSam06

Title says it all, so what do you think it will be? Increased attendance with the hard times ahead, or reduced attendance on the basis that its pointless? I ask because I was talking to a priest the last day, and he didn't seem unduly concerned about the recession. When I asked him why he felt that way, he said "wolves at the gate bring the lambs to the shepherd".

Rev Hellfire

I think the hard times will have to get a lot harder before we see any significant change in church attendance. Sure there'll be some people who will seek comfort in the church and church affiliated charities will probably see their client-base increase. Not that we'd wish anyone such misfortune mind you.

Now a nice plague would do the trick I think...

PDN

Our attendance has increased by about 10% since the recession kicked in. But we we've been growing steadily for a number of years anyway - so it's hard to know whether you can attribute anything to the recession.

One noticeable change is the proportion of Irish first time visitors is exceeding that of non-nationals. That is different from what we've seen over the last few years.

Dades

PDN wrote: »

One noticeable change is the proportion of Irish first time visitors is exceeding that of non-nationals. That is different from what we've seen over the last few years.

Would I be right in saying you serve free tea and biscuits?

lottodrink

There's a recession??:pac:

Húrin

Given that most Irish people are functionally non-religious not for well-considered philosophical reasons but simply on account of drifting away from it in the sea of consumerism, it is obvious that some of them will rediscover meaning in churches when consumerism becomes much less of an option.

Galvasean

Once people's lives to suck watch them come crawling back..

ShoulderChip

PDN wrote: »

Our attendance has increased by about 10% since the recession kicked in. But we we've been growing steadily for a number of years anyway - so it's hard to know whether you can attribute anything to the recession.

One noticeable change is the proportion of Irish first time visitors is exceeding that of non-nationals. That is different from what we've seen over the last few years.

what do you mean by our attendance?

are you a priest?

Fanny Cradock

Galvasean wrote: »

Once people's lives to suck watch them come crawling back..

That's why we Christians instigated the financial crash and recession.

DublinWriter

Meh. Colour me cynical, but I think you'd need to have a big firey crucifix in the sky to appear to significantly increase church attendance.

I take with a pinch of salt the anecdotal tales of increased attendance as reported by people on this thread as such reports are hardly objective.

I remain unconvinced until I see some Nielsen ratings!

PDN

ShoulderChip wrote: »

what do you mean by our attendance?

are you a priest?

I'm a pastor of a church.

DublinWriter wrote:

I take with a pinch of salt the anecdotal tales of increased attendance as reported by people on this thread as such reports are hardly objective.

Well, were having to start another service at 9.30am because we can't cram any more seats into the building to accomodate the increased numbers. I don't think that's subjective.

And no, we don't serve tea & biscuits. It's the devil of a job getting the crumbs out of the carpets.

DublinWriter

PDN wrote: »

Well, were having to start another service at 9.30am because we can't cram any more seats into the building to accomodate the increased numbers.

How many people does your building normally hold?

CDfm

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Title says it all, so what do you think it will be? Increased attendance with the hard times ahead, or reduced attendance on the basis that its pointless? I ask because I was talking to a priest the last day, and he didn't seem unduly concerned about the recession. When I asked him why he felt that way, he said "wolves at the gate bring the lambs to the shepherd".

I doubt it will have much affect on attendences.

Nowdays -masses are more meditative. If it gets people thru the recession.

eoin5

People are more prone to hope and fear in those (as opposed to these) tough times. If we ever get to that stage again there will be a lot more impressionable people to enlist, but I think were very far from that point. Were not exactly talking penal law and mass rocks yet

c-note

in "o brother where art thou"
theres a scence where ulyses everitt mcgill, prays to god that his life may be saved.
he is spared, and his companions cry "its a miracle"
he calls them fools to be beliving in such things when theres
a "scientific explanation"..
his pals remind him that moments earlier he was praying:

everitt : Well any human being will, cast about
in a moment of stress. No, the fact
is, they're flooding this valley so
they can hydro-electric up the whole
durned state...
true.


the poorer you are, the more you pray.

PDN

DublinWriter wrote: »

How many people does your building normally hold?

450

aggresso

There is a misconception that the economic boom caused the decrease we have seen in the last couple of decades. I reckon that the causal link between the two goes the other was: i.e. that the decrease in religious belief and practice went a long way to permitting the economic boom.

I'd be very surprised if the crash will have any large number of people coming back into the main church (the bishop of Raphoe is working like a titan to prevent that). Our pastor friend is probably of one of those evangelical groups that always do well outside the soup kitchen.

I doubt it's anything to worry about.

PDN

aggresso wrote: »

There is a misconception that the economic boom caused the decrease we have seen in the last couple of decades. I reckon that the causal link between the two goes the other was: i.e. that the decrease in religious belief and practice went a long way to permitting the economic boom.

I'd be very surprised if the crash will have any large number of people coming back into the main church (the bishop of Raphoe is working like a titan to prevent that). Our pastor friend is probably of one of those evangelical groups that always do well outside the soup kitchen.

I doubt it's anything to worry about.

Ha ha. Considering a good proportion of our membership are professionals then the recession must be worse than we thought if it's soup kitchen time. I blame Mary Harney if doctors are taking the soup.

CDfm

PDN wrote: »

I blame Mary Harney if doctors are taking the soup.

Doctors taking the soup.Things must be bad. Do you have any scientists?

SimpleSam06

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

That's why we Christians instigated the financial crash and recession.

Ah good, somewhere we can send the bill.

taram

Well one of my friends lost her jobs, the other couldn't get one after college, and in the resulting time they had to think about things, both re-discovered religion and a year on are both quite dedicated to their churches.

I on the other hand when had time baked pies. Mmmm, pie.

Zombrex

Húrin wrote: »

Given that most Irish people are functionally non-religious not for well-considered philosophical reasons but simply on account of drifting away from it in the sea of consumerism, it is obvious that some of them will rediscover meaning in churches when consumerism becomes much less of an option.

Are you saying that people stopped going to church because they wanted to go shopping instead ... ?

Most of my friends just have lies in ... I wouldn't really call that "consumerism" (don't most shops only open at 12 noon on Sundays?)

Galvasean

Wicknight wrote: »

Are you saying that people stopped going to church because they wanted to go shopping instead ... ?

I think he was referring to material goods replacing the space once filled with religion.
Like you know when you buy something nice, you get that warm fuzzy feeling?

rainbow kirby

taram wrote: »

I on the other hand when had time baked pies. Mmmm, pie.

'Sup fellow pie-baker. Meaning can be found through pastry, not faith!

Húrin

Wicknight wrote: »

Are you saying that people stopped going to church because they wanted to go shopping instead ... ?

Most of my friends just have lies in ... I wouldn't really call that "consumerism" (don't most shops only open at 12 noon on Sundays?)

Come on Wicknight, I'm obviously talking about how the Catholic Church's cultural hegemony was replaced by that of consumer capitalism and its values.

Dades

CDfm wrote: »

Doctors taking the soup.Things must be bad. Do you have any scientists?

The scientists were only there to test the soup, not drink it. :pac:

Zombrex

Húrin wrote: »

Come on Wicknight, I'm obviously talking about how the Catholic Church's cultural hegemony was replaced by that of consumer capitalism and its values.

we have always been consumer capitalists, and I'm not sure consumer capitalism has "values" ... so again I'm not following what you mean.

Or you simply making a "shopping is the new religion and the high street is the new church" type analogy? If you are the first thing I would say is that those things don't equate.

PDN

CDfm wrote: »

Doctors taking the soup.Things must be bad. Do you have any scientists?

Very few. The odd microbiologist or two. More lawyers, accountants, teachers engineers and IT people. Must be something to do with the left brain / right brain thing.

Or maybe the scientists figured out we're putting the brainwashing potion in the soup?

aggresso

PDN wrote: »

Or maybe the scientists figured out we're putting the brainwashing potion in the soup?

No. They're just trained to think critically, rather than memorise a whole load of stuff that's set out for them.

Zombrex

aggresso wrote: »

No. They're just trained to think critically, rather than memorise a whole load of stuff that's set out for them.

don't take the bait, don't take the bait, don't take the bait .... too late ... :pac:

pH

aggresso wrote: »

No. They're just trained to think critically, rather than memorise a whole load of stuff that's set out for them.

You mean this stuff?

We Believe:

• In the verbal inspiration of the Bible.
• In one God eternally existing in three persons; namely, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.
• That Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of the Father, conceived of the Holy Ghost, and born of the Virgin Mary. That Jesus was crucified, buried, and raised from the dead. That He ascended to heaven and is today at the right hand of the Father as the Intercessor.
• That all have sinned and come short of the glory of God and that repentance is commanded of God for all and necessary for forgiveness of sins.
• That justification, regeneration, and the new birth are wrought by faith in the blood of Jesus Christ.
• In sanctification subsequent to the new birth, through faith in the blood of Christ; through the Word, and by the Holy Ghost.
• Holiness to be God's standard of living for His people.
• In the baptism with the Holy Ghost subsequent to a clean heart.
• In speaking with other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance and that it is the initial evidence of the baptism of the Holy Ghost.
• In water baptism by immersion, and all who repent should be baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
• Divine healing is provided for all in the atonement.
• In the Lord's Supper and washing of the saints' feet.
• In the premillennial second coming of Jesus. First, to resurrect the righteous dead and to catch away the living saints to Him in the air. Second, to reign on the earth a thousand years.
• In the bodily resurrection; eternal life for the righteous, and eternal punishment for the wicked.

Rev Hellfire

pH wrote: »

We Believe:

• In the verbal inspiration of the Bible.
• In one God eternally existing in three persons; namely, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.
• That Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of the Father, conceived of the Holy Ghost, and born of the Virgin Mary. That Jesus was crucified, buried, and raised from the dead. That He ascended to heaven and is today at the right hand of the Father as the Intercessor.
• That all have sinned and come short of the glory of God and that repentance is commanded of God for all and necessary for forgiveness of sins.
• That justification, regeneration, and the new birth are wrought by faith in the blood of Jesus Christ.
• In sanctification subsequent to the new birth, through faith in the blood of Christ; through the Word, and by the Holy Ghost.
• Holiness to be God's standard of living for His people.
• In the baptism with the Holy Ghost subsequent to a clean heart.
• In speaking with other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance and that it is the initial evidence of the baptism of the Holy Ghost.
• In water baptism by immersion, and all who repent should be baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
• Divine healing is provided for all in the atonement.
• In the Lord's Supper and washing of the saints' feet.
• In the premillennial second coming of Jesus. First, to resurrect the righteous dead and to catch away the living saints to Him in the air. Second, to reign on the earth a thousand years.
• In the bodily resurrection; eternal life for the righteous, and eternal punishment for the wicked.

Ahh, there's nothing so nice as a christmas conversion

jrodd

I think with the credit crunch and today uncertain economic climate that people will be turning more to work for financial reward rather than our lord jesus for spiritual reward imho.
I know several accountants who instead of attending a 3 hour sermon will duck into their office an spend the time calculating numbers tbh.

pH

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Ahh, there's nothing so nice as a christmas conversion

It's a genuine honest to goodness Christmas miracle. I believe it all and understand none of it!

SimpleSam06

pH wrote: »

You mean this stuff?

We Believe:

• In the verbal inspiration of the Bible.
• In one God eternally existing in three persons; namely, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.
• That Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of the Father, conceived of the Holy Ghost, and born of the Virgin Mary. That Jesus was crucified, buried, and raised from the dead. That He ascended to heaven and is today at the right hand of the Father as the Intercessor.
• That all have sinned and come short of the glory of God and that repentance is commanded of God for all and necessary for forgiveness of sins.
• That justification, regeneration, and the new birth are wrought by faith in the blood of Jesus Christ.
• In sanctification subsequent to the new birth, through faith in the blood of Christ; through the Word, and by the Holy Ghost.
• Holiness to be God's standard of living for His people.
• In the baptism with the Holy Ghost subsequent to a clean heart.
• In speaking with other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance and that it is the initial evidence of the baptism of the Holy Ghost.
• In water baptism by immersion, and all who repent should be baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
• Divine healing is provided for all in the atonement.
• In the Lord's Supper and washing of the saints' feet.
• In the premillennial second coming of Jesus. First, to resurrect the righteous dead and to catch away the living saints to Him in the air. Second, to reign on the earth a thousand years.
• In the bodily resurrection; eternal life for the righteous, and eternal punishment for the wicked.

Yankee go home.

CDfm

pH wrote: »

You mean this stuff?

[/list]

Your list is based on the Creed ( Apostles/Nicene) - a statement ofChristian belief.

Thats a bit of topic as this is about church attendence during recession.

We Christians know that atheists have priests and nun phobias and vegeterian atheists just feel sorry for the turkey.

Tar.Aldarion

Sure do! My facke turkey and fake sausages wrapped in fake rasher is just about done.

Don't know if attendance will change much, a bigger effect will be the polish leaving.

toiletduck

I know they always do it at Christmas Mass but this year in particular was terrible for the priest attempting to cling onto as many lapsed Catholics as possible. Went into a diatribe about how we won't be as "crazy" anymore, the recession will make us "put God back on the agenda" and be happier all round yadda yadda.

I'm not sure what the economic state will have on religious attendance. Most people like a lie in, but if you're on the rock'n'roll and getting up past midday daily then it might be a nice change to get up on the Sabbath :pac:

Tar.Aldarion

This year our one didn't. He actually told a funny joke about a kid ransoming mary back to jesus for gifts.

toiletduck

A sermon on the dangers of moral relativism aswell for me. You win.

Tar.Aldarion

Yeah my mass was good fun. A kid started hitting his sister while she laughed the whole time, also their mother was hot. Another kid kept pretending to give a toy helicopter to a child in front of it for 20 minutes and pulling it back, a hamster would learn faster. When the baskets came around for th money, a child started shouting, 'my money! my money!' which was quite funny.

CDfm

For someone like me -to see a bunch of people go for the "event" rather then the sarcrament kind- of wrecks it.

If the kids and the adults cant behave they shouldnt be there. Vegeterians wouldnt find it funny if I brought cooked chicken to a vegeterian resteraunt for meat eaters.

I think there should be bouncers on the doors saying regulars only.

Húrin

CDfm wrote: »

I think there should be bouncers on the doors saying regulars only.

lol, and they should be bishops!

Tar.Aldarion

CDfm wrote: »

For someone like me -to see a bunch of people go for the "event" rather then the sarcrament kind- of wrecks it.

If the kids and the adults cant behave they shouldnt be there. Vegeterians wouldnt find it funny if I brought cooked chicken to a vegeterian resteraunt for meat eaters.

I think there should be bouncers on the doors saying regulars only.

A)The priest kept going on about how great it was to see the kids there and also welcomed non Christians.
How were the parents misbehaving? How exactly do you force a child to behave? Do you not think they tried?
C) If it was regulars only it wouldn't be very 'christian' of them, there would also be about 10% of the people there. The church wouldn't get it's biggest payday of the year in the baskets.

CDfm

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

A)The priest kept going on about how great it was to see the kids there and also welcomed non Christians.
How were the parents misbehaving? How exactly do you force a child to behave? Do you not think they tried?
C) If it was regulars only it wouldn't be very 'christian' of them, there would also be about 10% of the people there. The church wouldn't get it's biggest payday of the year in the baskets.

Tar - its just my view. The priests view would be different to mine.

Really - the parents tried. It kept you amused for twenty minites.Their disrespect really amused you. As a parent Ive done it-betcha they would have no problem making their kids behave at the sweet counter. They couldnt be arsed.

Its funny is it -that you and others feel it perfectly normal to go to mass when you want and use the church resourses. I imagine if the non-believers each put in the price of a pint it might be worthwhile but in reality they only contibute a few cents each.It happens but I dont have to agree with it as I dont think the "guests" behave.

When you and other non-believers are there you dont know how to behave-which says more about your lack of respect.I compared it to someone bringing meat to a veterarian resteraunt which you dont seem to think wrong -it gives me the impression that your beliefs are not sincere but disposible.

I am just pointing out that you and other atheists see nothing wrong in operating a double standard.

Tar.Aldarion

CDfm wrote: »

Tar - its just my view. The priests view would be different to mine.

Which one represents god?

Really - the parents tried. It kept you amused for twenty minites.Their disrespect really amused you.

Yes their disrespect was the funny bit, ho ho, look at them disrespecting christianity! Actually it was children having fun.

As a parent Ive done it-betcha they would have no problem making their kids behave at the sweet counter. They couldnt be arsed.

You mean they wouldn't have a problem making a child behave for something they want? Not really a surprise. What child wants to be at mass? The difference in your example is incentive. There is also a constraint on parents at mass that there is not in a sweet shop. They must be quite quiet and respectful, not to mention we were in the front row of the church, right beside the priest.

I doubt they wanted to be embarrassed andthey did try. They took the toy, the child cried and shouted quite loud. They tried whispering to it whatever it was they said etc. They got him to go back being quiet by giving him the toy and going back to playing with another child. I have seen this is the norm in mass for over my two decades of attendance, the priests don't mind. It was a specific part of his sermon for people to take two minutes and look at the children playing and I believe his words included 'rejoice'. He must have been rejoicing in their disrespect?

Its funny is it -that you and others feel it perfectly normal to go to mass when you want and use the church resourses.

I have never wanted to go to mass in my life, but I've probably gone more than most christians. As I have also stated, the priests of my parish have also made a point of asking paritioners to bring those along that are not of the faith to attend the mass and to welcome them.

I imagine if the non-believers each put in the price of a pint it might be worthwhile but in reality they only contibute a few cents each.It happens but I dont have to agree with it as I dont think the "guests" behave.

It should not be about the churhc making money and what money they make from the attendees. That few cent comment is also ridiculous, there are about 10 'real' christians attending that mass, the church is mostly empty during th year, packed to capacity at christmas. There was quite a lot of money in each of those baskets.

When you and other non-believers are there you dont know how to behave-which says more about your lack of respect.

That is nonsense, I was raised catholic as was everybody there, I could say the mass off by heart if I wanted, let alone know how to behave.

I compared it to someone bringing meat to a veterarian resteraunt which you dont seem to think wrong -it gives me the impression that your beliefs are not sincere but disposible.

I am just pointing out that you and other atheists see nothing wrong in operating a double standard.

Your analogy makes no sense, it is more like(but nothing at all similar) an omnivore eating at a vegetarian restaurant but not believing in vegetariansim.

CDfm

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Which one represents god?


Yes their disrespect was the funny bit, ho ho, look at them disrespecting christianity! Actually it was children having fun.

You mean they wouldn't have a problem making a child behave for something they want? Not really a surprise. What child wants to be at mass? The difference in your example is incentive. There is also a constraint on parents at mass that there is not in a sweet shop. They must be quite quiet and respectful, not to mention we were in the front row of the church, right beside the priest.

I doubt they wanted to be embarrassed andthey did try. They took the toy, the child cried and shouted quite loud. They tried whispering to it whatever it was they said etc. They got him to go back being quiet by giving him the toy and going back to playing with another child. I have seen this is the norm in mass for over my two decades of attendance, the priests don't mind. It was a specific part of his sermon for people to take two minutes and look at the children playing and I believe his words included 'rejoice'. He must have been rejoicing in their disrespect?


I have never wanted to go to mass in my life, but I've probably gone more than most christians. As I have also stated, the priests of my parish have also made a point of asking paritioners to bring those along that are not of the faith to attend the mass and to welcome them.


It should not be about the churhc making money and what money they make from the attendees. That few cent comment is also ridiculous, there are about 10 'real' christians attending that mass, the church is mostly empty during th year, packed to capacity at christmas. There was quite a lot of money in each of those baskets.


That is nonsense, I was raised catholic as was everybody there, I could say the mass off by heart if I wanted, let alone know how to behave.


Your analogy makes no sense, it is more like(but nothing at all similar) an omnivore eating at a vegetarian restaurant but not believing in vegetariansim.

Jesus at the Temple with the moneychangers hits the point quite well - he kicked them out.The point being that the church is a House of Prayer and people are welcome for Genuine prayer reasons.

Do non Catholic Christian churches have this problem?

My analogy hits the mark- its about how people behave and respect. If you adopt double standards I dont see why others cant do the same in vegetarian resteraunts. Its the same thing.

Fanny Cradock

CDfm wrote: »

Jesus at the Temple with the moneychangers hits the point quite well - he kicked them out.The point being that the church is a House of Prayer and people are welcome for Genuine prayer reasons.

Do non Catholic Christian churches have this problem?

My analogy hits the mark- its about how people behave and respect. If you adopt double standards I dont see why others cant do the same in vegetarian resteraunts. Its the same thing.

Your analogy fails on may levels.

A church isn't an exclusive club whereby the intentions of those heading through the door are vetted. If the person beside me is an atheist, agnostic or Jew, I couldn't give two hoots as long as they are outwardly respectful, at least. So as long as people aren't disruptive, then they are more than welcome. Sure, form a Christian perspective, it might even be the beginnings of something wonderful!

CDfm

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Your analogy fails on may levels.

A church isn't an exclusive club whereby the intentions of those heading through the door are vetted. If the person beside me is an atheist, agnostic or Jew, I couldn't give two hoots as long as they are outwardly respectful, at least. So as long as people aren't disruptive, then they are more than welcome. Sure, form a Christian perspective, it might even be the beginnings of something wonderful!

I was at Mass yesterday and it wasnt very spiritual and there were people arriving in half an hour after it started.I didnt think people respected the ceremony as a sarcrament. Tars posting just put it straight.

Thats what I felt- if I arrived in a vegetarian resteraunt with my chicken wings I wouldnt expect a welcome.

It kind of reminded me of the drunks that used to arrive at Midnight mass from the pubs - which caused them to be discontinued.

PDN

CDfm wrote: »

It kind of reminded me of the drunks that used to arrive at Midnight mass from the pubs - which caused them to be discontinued.

The pubs were discontinued?

CDfm

PDN wrote: »

The pubs were discontinued?

The Midnight Vigils in Catholic Churches have been discontinued in churches for sometime. They used to start at 11pm Christmas Eve and were a real celebration.