Should cyclists pay Road Tax & Insurance?

short circuit

stopped_clock wrote: »

Fair point!

Is there any way to get this thread back onto one of its many topics?

No ... was there ever a point in this thread ... :pac:

Pure unadulterated entertainment though ...

TinyExplosions

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

This may be a late contender for thread of the year!

+1 -though the two other threads it's spawned with the motorists and ladies are interesting -a lot more pro-cycling motorists than I thought, and the ladies are just lovely -very well modded (we should have more militant ones on here!)

DirkVoodoo

TLL is sometimes over-modded in my opinion. I think our mods here are pretty good in their approach, and look how well behaved we are! Makes Tom (as in Niceone...) sick I am sure

kenmc

Dang "them motorists" are a tetchy lot eh? Up the price of petrol double quick I say! (as a car owner even!)

seanybiker

Insurance for a cyclists wouldnt be a bad idea.
Tax for a cyclist is a fairly dumb idea in my opinion. Isnt car tax done by the emmissions now or some crap like that, cyclists dont have any emmissions apart from a few guinness farts.
Unless cyclists wear a fart monitor for a year and then someone studies the findings and gets an average of farts per day, they could then find out how much to charge said cyclist for tax.
That would make women cyclists exempt from paying cycling tax though, cos women don't fart. :cool:

flickerx

TinyExplosions wrote: »

+1 -though the two other threads it's spawned with the motorists and ladies are interesting -a lot more pro-cycling motorists than I thought, and the ladies are just lovely -very well modded (we should have more militant ones on here!)

Oh man. I'm so tempted to wade into that motors forum thread, swinging my verbal kryptonite lock in the direction of any motorist's wing mirror rants, but I just cant be bothered with all that typing - I'll just go out tonight after midnight and do it in the real world instead.

kenmc

actually i think most of the motorists have been quite reasonable, with a few exceptions - just like on the real roads really.
Well do what you must.

kincsem

I find that Contiental Gatorskins combat the road tacks very effectively tyvm.

stopped_clock

seanybiker wrote: »

Insurance for a cyclists wouldnt be a bad idea.
Tax for a cyclist is a fairly dumb idea in my opinion.

I've been thinking...

There are definite reasons for bike insurance. In fact I have a policy at the moment - it covers theft and third party costs. (Not fire, as far as I know). I'm not sure if I'll renew since I now have somewhere safer to keep my bike, but the third party is worth considering in our increasingly-litigious world.

Compulsory insurance though seems like a daft idea, as does the idea (floated in the thread on Motors) that fear of higher future premiums would encourage better behaviour.

As a revenue-gathering exercise, it wouldn't be a ridiculous idea to tax cycling, or more specifically bikes, by way of a higher VAT rate on purchase, perhaps with the proceeds ring-fenced for cycling facilities ala Road Tax. (Similar to VRT, I guess, which I'm surprised doesn't get mentioned more in these kinds of threads.) Obviously such a tax would be a self-defeating exercise from a policy point of view and would hardly encourage less people to drive.

seanybiker wrote: »

Isnt car tax done by the emmissions now or some crap like that, cyclists dont have any emmissions apart from a few guinness farts.

Indeed, then you'd have motor tax and cyclist tax but you'd also need a driver tax.

seanybiker

stopped_clock wrote: »

I've been thinking...

There are definite reasons for bike insurance. In fact I have a policy at the moment -

deadly I never knew you could insure your bike at all. Thats a really handy thing to have as you have said the way things are these days. I presume it doesnt cost much though does it?

stopped_clock

seanybiker wrote: »

deadly I never knew you could insure your bike at all. Thats a really handy thing to have as you have said the way things are these days. I presume it doesnt cost much though does it?

Now, I should add that I'm in the UK, so I don't know if it's available in Ireland. Only costs a few quid a month.

I'm with E&L, and there are certainly a few other companies do it - I picked up a few flyers at the London cycle show last year. Link to details.

*Edit* Doesn't seem to be much if any non-racing bike insurance in Ireland.

opelmanta

I have bicycle insurance, €12 a yr, on the home insurance, only covers it if it gets stolen though so wouldnt be much good in a crash!

Lumen

stopped_clock wrote: »

As a revenue-gathering exercise, it wouldn't be a ridiculous idea to tax cycling, or more specifically bikes, by way of a higher VAT rate on purchase, perhaps with the proceeds ring-fenced for cycling facilities ala Road Tax. (Similar to VRT, I guess, which I'm surprised doesn't get mentioned more in these kinds of threads.) Obviously such a tax would be a self-defeating exercise from a policy point of view and would hardly encourage less people to drive.

As you imply, it would have to be a registration tax, rather than a sales tax, or else people would just bypass it with imports.

And for registration tax to work, you need a registration system, which is a whole can of bureaucratic worms probably not justified for the resulting revenue.

cyclopath2001

opelmanta wrote: »

I have bicycle insurance, €12 a yr, on the home insurance, only covers it if it gets stolen though so wouldnt be much good in a crash!

When motorists go on about 'cyclists should pay insurance', they mean 3rd party to insure against when a cyclist crashes into a car and writes it off & kills or seriously injures its occupants.

In the topsy-turvey world of 'motors', they've convinced themselves that cyclists are immune from prosecution (because they've no insurance) and being slow-moving are a major danger on the road, even more dangerous than pensioners....something to do with the frustration of being stuck behind a slow-moving vehicle provoking ordinary, decent motorists with advanced driving skills, and who only break the speed limit by 15% (which is OK... a Garda on boards told them), into overtaking dangerously and killing baby whales, kittens or whatever.

kenmc

Lumen wrote: »

As you imply, it would have to be a registration tax, rather than a sales tax, or else people would just bypass it with imports.

And for registration tax to work, you need a registration system, which is a whole can of bureaucratic worms probably not justified for the resulting revenue.

But how nice would it be to actually have a registration system, so that stolen bikes would be much easier to trace? I'd pay a couple of euro for that no problems

DirkVoodoo

I thought you can register your bike at the local bacon station?

Kinda hungry now...

Lumen

kenmc wrote: »

But how nice would it be to actually have a registration system, so that stolen bikes would be much easier to trace? I'd pay a couple of euro for that no problems

Wouldn't work. Even if you microchipped every bike in Ireland, they'd just get exported to somewhere else.

Car theft is limited by engine immobilisers, not registration systems. You can't practically immobilise a bike.

kenmc

yeah but i think it just goes into the big huge ledger on the desk beside the passport, driving licence and speeding fines. I really doubt if they find a bike they can look up it's registration and find the owner. I think it's more along the lines of 'look officer, I found this here scrote with a bike I say is mine - the serial number is in your magic book - tell him to give it back' if you actually have said scrote and said bike.

kenmc

Lumen wrote: »

Wouldn't work. Even if you microchipped every bike in Ireland, they'd just get exported to somewhere else.

Car theft is limited by engine immobilisers, not registration systems. You can't practically immobilise a bike.

I'd disagree. It'd be rare for a bog standard car to 'go missing' and not be found somewhere - albeit burned out or rammed into a bank, at which point the cars owner can be identified from the registration records, and it either returned to him, or an insurance assesment done on it. I seriously doubt that many of the bikes stolen in Ireland are either stripped or exported. They're sold on or ridden by the thief until one of their 'friends' steals it on, at which point they just go get another from the bike-link...
Expensive racing bikes perhaps, but that's not really opportunistic theft methinks.

cunnins4

Didn't bother reading the whole thread...


soooo....


short answer....

no

kenmc

ah you should (read the whole thread I mean). it's good fun. Print it out for the khazi tomorrow

brayblue24

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

I thought you can register your bike at the local bacon station?

Kinda hungry now...

This is a very good thread and makes for compulsary reading but I find this post offensive, insulting and unnecessary and it shows you up for what you are sir.

Lumen

brayblue24 wrote: »

This is a very good thread and makes for compulsary reading but I find this post offensive, insulting and unnecessary and it shows you up for what you are sir.

More doughnuts, less coffee. HTH.

cunnins4

kenmc wrote: »

ah you should (read the whole thread I mean). it's good fun. Print it out for the khazi tomorrow

Okay, I tried. Got to page 2 and got bored. I know the outcome:

Yawn...

More Yawning....

Tax and insurance for cyclists?



<Rough culchie garda> "Tax and Insurance please...."
<Little Suzie> "My bike has a weeflectowr"
<Rough culchie garda> "Are you aware you haven't the appropriate lighting on that veh-icle?"
<Little Suzie> "Wats a veh-ickle?"

DirkVoodoo

brayblue24 wrote: »

This is a very good thread and makes for compulsary reading but I find this post offensive, insulting and unnecessary and it shows you up for what you are sir.

Wow, I'm almost afraid to ask what that might be. I thought I was a pretty nice guy, guess you know me better though :rolleyes:

kenmc

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Wow, I'm almost afraid to ask what that might be. I thought I was a pretty nice guy, guess you know me better though :rolleyes:

I think you'll find that most cops don't like being referred to as pork. Especially muslim ones

stopped_clock

Lumen wrote: »

As you imply, it would have to be a registration tax, rather than a sales tax, or else people would just bypass it with imports.

And for registration tax to work, you need a registration system, which is a whole can of bureaucratic worms probably not justified for the resulting revenue.

Fair point, although you could always have a higher import duty as well - bikes are fairly easy to spot. I don't want to labour the point, and I don't think it'd be a good idea anyway, so I'm not trying to convince anyone of the merits of this. I was just musing that a single once-off payment would be more practical (in a hypothetical world) than the annual payment in return for a tax disc that motorists pay.

picture of kid on bike

Not quite like-for-like perhaps, but 17 year-old drivers have to pay tax and insurance.


Incidentally, apologies if I'm now hiding all the good stuff on the middle pages!

kenmc

stopped_clock wrote: »

Fair point, although you could always have a higher import duty as well - bikes are fairly easy to spot. I don't want to labour the point, and I don't think it'd be a good idea anyway, so I'm not trying to convince anyone of the merits of this. I was just musing that a single once-off payment would be more practical (in a hypothetical world) than the annual payment in return for a tax disc that motorists pay.

No see we're missing the point again. They are not charged a yearly motor tax for owning a car. You can own a car and even drive it around a field for ever and not pay a single cent of motor tax. They are charged that motor tax for driving that same car onto public roads, presumably as a means to offset the damage done to the road, environment and health as a result of their bring the vehicle onto the road and the pollution and devestation it can cause. Bikes, on the other hand, do not cause damage to roads, environment or health, and hence should not be forced to contribute in such a manner.

stopped_clock

kenmc wrote: »

No see we're missing the point again. They are not charged a yearly motor tax for owning a car. You can own a car and even drive it around a field for ever and not pay a single cent of motor tax. They are charged that motor tax for driving that same car onto public roads, presumably as a means to offset the damage done to the road, environment and health as a result of their bring the vehicle onto the road and the pollution and devestation it can cause. Bikes, on the other hand, do not cause damage to roads, environment or health, and hence should not be forced to contribute in such a manner.

I don't think bike-use should be taxed at all (VAT considerations aside).

Since the 'anti-cycling' drivers tend to post things along the lines of "cylists should pay tax" and the response can be "you can't enforce it without registration and tax discs", I was just wondering if such a method would be practical.

kenmc

No no I understood that you are against tax, I was just trying to explain in simple terms what the motorists are taxed for. They're whole response to everything seems to be "Well everyone else ______ so why shouldn't _____" e.g.
- "drives on the cycle lane", "I"
- "runs red lights", "I"
- "uses their mobile", "I"
- "pays road tax (sic)", "cyclists"
- "turns me on", "cyclists"