TII Motorway Service Areas (MSA) Progress Thread

Sounsd a great idea, as long as the P&R is west of the toll booths.

spacetweek

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Came across that article today and the mention of Enfield as a possible location for a P&R got me thinking about the MSA. I think that future MSAs should be combined with P&Rs where possible so the MSA is located beside a rail line and the how thing can be build together under one contract and both MSA and P&R would share the same on/off ramps to the motorway. The stations could be built on short spurs off the main rail line to allow higher frequencies between P&R and city centre. This would also minimise disruption on the main line and would not increase journey times by having to stop at an extra station.

I know it may be a bit late in the day to be thinking about this for the Enfield MSA and I dont know if it is close enough to the rail line to allow this. I think this is something that should be considered when planning future MSAs.

According to the map on the first page of this thread it is planned to have an MSA somewhere around Mountrath on the M7 and the article talks of a P&R at Portlaoise. The motorway crosses the rail line just south of Mountrath so somewhere around there seems like an ideal place for a combined MSA/P&R.

Another place on the M7 could be somewhere around Nenagh, of course this one would be serving Limerick city, not Dublin. Same could be done when building the M20, for to serve Cork. Im sure something could be done on the M7 at Naas, M11 beside Bray, M6 outside Galway and M9 serving Waterford.

If nothing else this can be used to strengthen the case for building more MSAs because it also improves public transport, increases value for money by getting two pieces of infrastructure in one go, etc. It also maximises use of our infrastructure by encouraging people to use both motorways and rail and alleviates congestion in cities.

I like how you're thinking outside the box, but are you not just making the mistake of looking at two different things and thinking that they should be put together? This won't necessarily make either more efficient.

Some issues that might scupper the idea:
- There are off the top of my head very few areas where rail lines cross motorways, and where this occurs (e.g. Mountrath), it's far too far away from a major city to be of interest to commuters. P&R is usually located at the edge or a short way outside a city. If they parked at Mountrath and headed to Limerick or Dublin from there by train, they could have beaten the train to it if they'd stayed in their car (since cars are faster than trains in ireland). If a person was at Mountrath and heading for e.g. Dublin, they would not consider switching to the train until they reached the outskirts of the city.
- In the case where you propose creating a spur into the MSA, this would increase rather than decrease disruption on the mainline as trains would have to divert along the spur, which would almost certainly have curves and therefore the train's speed would be lower.
- Until rail lines nationwide are upgraded and electrified where necessary, even a P&R at the city outskirts is never going to be as compelling as it should. In the case of Dublin I recommend waiting for the resignalling and electrification projects to be completed first before we start trying to get large numbers of new passengers to switch to rail from other modes. We already have overcrowding and it would just get worse.
- In certain cases, indeed P&R is planned anyway, or already in place, particularly around Cork (Dunkettle, Blarney) and Dublin (Kishogue via N4, Clongriffen is I think).
- Finally, is there really a benefit to be obtained from combining a rest stop facility with a public transport interchange? I've travelled extensively around Europe and have never seen that. The two would seem to me to be performing completely different functions and I'm not sure there'd be any particular point in combining them.

Sorry if this rains on your parade a bit, not my intention. We need some new ideas for transport in general in Ireland so everything is welcome.

If there was a P&R near Enfield on the M4 for Dublin city centre, it would still be good for the vast numbers that live in the surrounding areas away from the towns with a railway station. In a race between a car and a train from Enfield to the city, the car would be ahead almost all to way to Heuston, then the train would probably pass it.

Plus the benifit reduced stress caused by urban driving. Any cost savings on fuel will be more than cancelled out by the rail ticket & bus or whatever at the city end if not walkable.

spacetweek

Deleted User wrote: »

If there was a P&R near Enfield on the M4 for Dublin city centre, it would still be good for the vast numbers that live in the surrounding areas away from the towns with a railway station. In a race between a car and a train from Enfield to the city, the car would be ahead almost all to way to Heuston, then the train would probably pass it.

Plus the benifit reduced stress caused by urban driving. Any cost savings on fuel will be more than cancelled out by the rail ticket & bus or whatever at the city end if not walkable.

This is true, but I still say there won't be a really strong case for the train over the car until all these are turned into DARTs. Once the Interconnector is finished we can get moving on expanding car parking at outlying train stations.

Pete_Cavan

spacetweek wrote: »

Some issues that might scupper the idea:
- There are off the top of my head very few areas where rail lines cross motorways, and where this occurs (e.g. Mountrath), it's far too far away from a major city to be of interest to commuters. P&R is usually located at the edge or a short way outside a city. If they parked at Mountrath and headed to Limerick or Dublin from there by train, they could have beaten the train to it if they'd stayed in their car (since cars are faster than trains in ireland). If a person was at Mountrath and heading for e.g. Dublin, they would not consider switching to the train until they reached the outskirts of the city.

Mountrath was just an example I used because it was marked on that map as a potential site for an MSA and Portlaoise was mentioned in the article as a potential R&P site. I agree that it is not an ideal location for a R&P and is not the best example I could have chosen. There are plenty of places close to cities where the motorway passes close to the rain line. Like I said, the M20 will be very close to the rail line so that is perfect. Somewhere between Birdhill and Nenagh on the M7 is a good spot to serve Limerick. The Galway side of Athenry on M6 and around Mullinvat on M9 outside Waterford meet the criteria also.

- In the case where you propose creating a spur into the MSA, this would increase rather than decrease disruption on the mainline as trains would have to divert along the spur, which would almost certainly have curves and therefore the train's speed would be lower.

The spur would only be a couple of hundred metres long and would only serve the P&R, allowing dedicated express trains between the P&R and the city. They could run maybe every half hour in mornings and evening and every hour/90 mins for the rest of the day. The main line track would not change so the only effect it would have on mainline trains would be in terms of timetabling to allow for extra trains in the city station. It terms of construction it just means creating the interchange, no other work will affect the main line track.

- Until rail lines nationwide are upgraded and electrified where necessary, even a P&R at the city outskirts is never going to be as compelling as it should. In the case of Dublin I recommend waiting for the resignalling and electrification projects to be completed first before we start trying to get large numbers of new passengers to switch to rail from other modes. We already have overcrowding and it would just get worse.

The main reason people in this country dont use trains is because they are too slow for long(ish) distance journeys when compared to driving on the motorway. When you come off the motorway entering the city it can be very slow due to all the traffic on lower capacity roads. P&Rs on motorways outside cities make sense because it allows people to travel a long distance in the shortest time on the motorway. You can then travel a shorter distance into the city on a train without having to content with traffic and then find a parking space. As the article I quoted said, the M3 Parkway is the guinea pig and if it is successful in encouraging people to use the train it can justify spending money upgrading the rail network. Currently almost all rail lines outside Dublin do not get the passenger number to justify the cost of upgrades but P&Rs can help redress this.

- In certain cases, indeed P&R is planned anyway, or already in place, particularly around Cork (Dunkettle, Blarney) and Dublin (Kishogue via N4, Clongriffen is I think).

I dont see why this is a reason why it cant be done elsewhere.

- Finally, is there really a benefit to be obtained from combining a rest stop facility with a public transport interchange? I've travelled extensively around Europe and have never seen that. The two would seem to me to be performing completely different functions and I'm not sure there'd be any particular point in combining them.

Just because it is not done on the continent at the minute is not a reason in itself why it shouldnt be done here. Obviously some research would have to be done to see if there are any negative effects of it. As for the advantages, well the benefits of MSAs and P&Rs are obvious and Im not going to list them, but all of these remain under my proposal. The proximity of one does not necessarily offer any extra benefits to the other but equally there are no disadvantages (that I can think of anyway, but Im open to correction). The main advantage is you get two pieces of infrastructure done at once. The cost of planning/design/CPOing/construction will be less for one combined project than for two separate ones. It also strengthens the case for building more MSAs if it is also promoting public transport. Sell is as and P&R mainly which also happens to have a MSA if it keeps opponents of MSAs off our back.

spacetweek

Where are we with Enfield MSA? I thought it was meant to open yesterday? Did it?

KevR

I believe so. There was some talk of it in the M6/4 thread.

massey woman

Was it Pierse Contracting that built it
Heard bad news on the radio 1 news there a few minutes ago about them
When and where is all this financial and legal turmoil going to end

Poster King

I was in the new M4 service area last Friday. It is way too close to Dublin. I was litterally just "on the road" to Galway and I was upon it, but because it was new and I was hungry I stopped. It is pretty nice, building is very spacious and there are several different eating options and a good newsagent. There seems to be plenty of parking. I took some photos which I will try and post.

Jayuu

Went to Belfast from Dublin on Thursday and back on Friday so I decided that I'd take a look at the M1 services stations. Dropped into the Lusk Northbound station and the Castlebellingham Southbound station.

I needed petrol on my outbound journey from Dublin so it was handy to have Lusk so close to the start of the journey. That said I did notice that the Lusk Southbound station was very quiet on my way back. I really do think this one will be underused unless your doing a journey beyond Dublin. Castlebellingham on the other hand is quite a good position for the Dublin/Belfast route being almost halfway between the two.

Leaving aside that matter I have to say my first impression was very positive. It would seem that the stations are built to a template because as far as I could see they were identical inside. As you enter there is the shop to your left, a Costa Coffee area to your right and straight ahead, you have an Applegreen food area, followed by a Burger King and the toilets at the back end of the space. Both places were clean and tidy and hopefully will stay that way and there was more than enough seating to sit and eat. There is more than ample parking as well.

Food was reasonably priced. I had a 7 item all-day breakfast including tea and toast for €6.95. Costa is a little expensive if you were to do a coffee and sandwich because they don't offer any special deals (like Insomnia do) but its good coffee. I didn't check out the Burger King but I assume pricing would be the same as any other BK outlet. Petrol was 130.8 per litre which compares favourably with most outlets in Dublin.

The Castlebellingham station still has "Testing Phase" signs out although I couldn't see much difference between it and the Lusk station. All in all I think they are a great addition to the network and if Applegreen keep the standard up I will definitely use them again on my semi-regular trips to Belfast. I assume the M4 stop will be of a very similar style.

Its just a pity we don't have more of them.

oddiot

Poster King wrote: »

I was in the new M4 service area last Friday. It is way too close to Dublin. I was litterally just "on the road" to Galway and I was upon it, but because it was new and I was hungry I stopped. It is pretty nice, building is very spacious and there are several different eating options and a good newsagent. There seems to be plenty of parking. I took some photos which I will try and post.

I popped into the M4 one both directions over the long weekend. As far as I can tell they were pretty identical to the one in Lusk. Although it is pretty close to Dublin, it's handy to know you can leave Dublin and fill up without going offline. Some people will also use it as part of a longer journey... e.g. Greystones to Longford.

puppetmaster

Drove the Lenght on the Waterford-Dublin Aiport route yesterday, Fantastic peice of infrastructure. Crying shame at the lack of services.

slinky2000

Jayuu wrote: »

I needed petrol on my outbound journey from Dublin so it was handy to have Lusk so close to the start of the journey. That said I did notice that the Lusk Southbound station was very quiet on my way back. I really do think this one will be underused unless your doing a journey beyond Dublin. .

Yea I went to Belfast last weekend (as I do every weekend) and it's great to know the lusk one is only about 10K from the m1/m50 junction.

And your also right about the lust southbound, I think by that stage people have fuelled up and are either at the end of their journey or the middle, heading to Cork and Limerick etc. If they are there is plenty of station choices on the n7.

Chris_5339762

slinky2000 wrote: »

And your also right about the lust southbound,

brandon_flowers

The service areas on the M1 are pretty good I have been in the Castlebellingham northbound and Lusk southbound ones recently. Expected to be overcharged on the food and I was, but not to the extent of the overcharging in UK service areas. I passed the M4 service area but didn't go in, they are a mirror image of the M1 MSA's as far as I could see.

Its a pity they are a state controlled with a tender for operate, there is easily enough traffic on the M7 and M8 to get the service providers to fund the build of an MSA and the slip roads. And I'm sure the NRA could tie in clauses that if said company wanted to close the service area they would have to find a tenant to takeover before they do so. MSA's are a license to print money if there is enough traffic and especially the M7 (once fully complete) and M8.

munchkin_utd

brandon_flowers wrote: »

The service areas on the M1 are pretty good I have been in the Castlebellingham northbound and Lusk southbound ones recently. Expected to be overcharged on the food and I was, but not to the extent of the overcharging in UK service areas. I passed the M4 service area but didn't go in, they are a mirror image of the M1 MSA's as far as I could see

re. overcharging, or a l would put it, "charging substantially more than you might pay on the high street".

I ventured into the M4 southbound services there a few weeks back.

I honestly got goose pimples walking in there
Imagine an east block person in the 80's seeing mc donalds come to Albania for the first time. That was me!
Its like a spaceship landed in a quagmire. (i.e. read other threads about the state of repair of motorways, the litter, the bits of cars and tyres lying about the place, unrepaired barriers, idiotic signs etc. - I have very low expectations of Irish motorways!)

But the MSA is spot on. Tons of parking. Spacious inside. And spotlessly clean. Its as good as the best I have seen on the continent. Hats off to them!
Being Ireland i expected to be fleeced for my rejuvenating coffee, the lovely facilities must come at a shocking price?
So, I was thinking of what it would cost in a German Autobahn Raststatte and add a paddy premium of a euro or 1.50.
So what would i be stung for? 4 euros. Maybe 4.50? More?
(NOTHING in Ireland would surprise me anymore with relation to food and drink pricing, even though things have calmed down recently. )

Nope. I think I payed a pretty reasonable 2.60 or 2.80 or something along those lines in the cafe place for a medium sized fluffy milky coffee type concoction. I think they called it cappuccino, but it was nothing of the sort.
Despite that, a tasty coffee without breaking the bank. I'll be using them again at christmas a few times I think!

So I don't know where this overpricing accusation comes from? By all regards name and shame.
If they are so exhorbitantly dear, can someone fill in with proper factual details?
For me though, if their food prices are as in-line with normal high street prices as the coffee is, then accusing them of overcharging is going a bit too far.
They are, for coffee at least, on the higher end of the scale BUT that isnt overcharging.

L1011

As far as I can tell, the prices are the same as the Applegreen services on normal roads, at least the M4 one and the one on the R449 about 20 miles east of it are basically identical. People just assume they're being overcharged if they've ever used a UK one!

doolox

Once I was coming back from a job near Drogheda and pulled into the new Service area to fill up.

I couldn't figure out the setup at the pumps.

Not wanting to have my laser card or credit card chewed up I pulled off and filled up nearer the city at an old fashioned petrol station.

I'll be filling up for motorway journeys before going onto the motorway system until they sort out the signage and layout of these pumps.

The least they could do is have someone on hand to transition people in how to use the new pumps properly.

L1011

You can just pick up the pump, fill, and go in the shop. And they take cards in the shop too.

slinky2000

doolox wrote: »

I couldn't figure out the setup at the pumps.

Just lift the pump and start filling. Go into shop and pay with hard cash. Is that not the same as an old fashioned one?

ongarboy

doolox wrote: »

Once I was coming back from a job near Drogheda and pulled into the new Service area to fill up.

I couldn't figure out the setup at the pumps.

Not wanting to have my laser card or credit card chewed up I pulled off and filled up nearer the city at an old fashioned petrol station.

I'll be filling up for motorway journeys before going onto the motorway system until they sort out the signage and layout of these pumps.

The least they could do is have someone on hand to transition people in how to use the new pumps properly.

come on, there is no rocket science involved. As the other posters have just said, they work the same way as all other self service operated pumps with the added optional advantage of paying by plastic at the pumps if you want to! Unless you are only used to having a petrol pump attendant fill you up (a rarity these days), there is no difference to the vast majority of filling stations.

medoc

I was on the M6/M4 this week and got GPS traces of both the East and Westbound Enfield Services. I added the Westbound Services to OSM tonight and will do likewise with the eastbound tomorrow time permitting.

serfboard

medoc wrote: »

I was on the M6/M4 this week and got GPS traces of both the East and Westbound Enfield Services. I added the Westbound Services to OSM tonight and will do likewise with the eastbound tomorrow time permitting.

That's great - thanks very much for that. They're on the M4 just after J9 for anyone who's interested.

munchkin_utd

medoc wrote: »

I was on the M6/M4 this week and got GPS traces of both the East and Westbound Enfield Services. I added the Westbound Services to OSM tonight and will do likewise with the eastbound tomorrow time permitting.

fair play.
Its live already.
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=53.4123086929321&lon=-6.8764328956604&zoom=16

Looks like a Foetus! Kinda apt seeing as the MSAs are in their embryonic stages of being rolled out but are likely to suffer a still birth the way government finances are at the moment.

Has anyone ever seen the exact reason in black and white documented, why the taxpayer has to provide and pay for the building of services rather than letting private enterprise pay for it lock stock and barrel, but obviously in an organised and properly tendered fashion?

(not that i am complaining if it means I can get cheap coffee with the current arrangements subsidised by the irish tax payer, well..... probably borrowed cash from germany but anyhow, cheap coffee is good for the motorist!!)

Cassidy28

I drove By Lusk service area the other day on the northbound services there where diggers moving clay around where they had seeded the ground,and the southbound side they where taking down fencing.:eek:

Cassidy28

Cassidy28 wrote: »

I drove By Lusk service area the other day on the northbound services there where diggers moving clay around where they had seeded the ground,and the southbound side they where taking down fencing.:eek:

There was a protest the other day by sub-contractors who hadn't been paid for the construction work, one fencing contractor "recaimed" his fence.

ardmacha

Just lift the pump and start filling

The pumps have clear instructions that you can do this. Which is great. However if you arrive at night they require you to prepay, but don't have any indication that this is the case. From most of the pumps you cannot see the hatch at which you must pay, which is not highlighted in any way.

At Castebellingham there were 3 people inside the hatch, one of whom purported to be a manager. I asked him why the instructions on the pump were directing customers to do something that they weren't allowing them to do. He just walked off. So even this glossy new facility has the same anti customer attitude of much of Irish business. A visitor might drive from the airport and stop at one of these places, is it too much to make clear that the coffee facilities etc are closed and that you have to prepay? Why have the NRA allowed such service? The buildings could have been designed with a mini shop which could stay open all night and barriers could have been designed to direct people to a subset of the pumps which had electronic barriers to prevent drive offs.

Chris_5339762

Used the prepay thing today. Absolutely fantastic, and so easy. Only worry I'd have is that its hard to shield your pin at that angle and an unscrupulus security guard could easily train the security cameras and pick up a rake of pin numbers.

sdanseo

It's an absolute disgrace that the places close down at night. Sure half the truckers in Ireland are doing night runs.

Ludicrous and completely unacceptable behaviour on the part of the NRA. Stupid, stupid, STUPID.

Cassidy28

sdonn wrote: »

It's an absolute disgrace that the places close down at night. Sure half the truckers in Ireland are doing night runs.

Ludicrous and completely unacceptable behaviour on the part of the NRA. Stupid, stupid, STUPID.

This sounds crazy alright seen as the Gardai and Rsa are saying to pull over if you are tired have a rest,are the toilets even closed at night?