Outer City Bypass

youngrun

yer man! wrote: »

Kinda knew this would happen, if red tape was used to stop it, it can be used to re-consider it.

Thought it was a Court decision rather than just red tape would be a lot harder to overturn?! http://ecofactireland.com/2013/04/11/european-court-of-justice-ruling-this-morning-for-the-controversial-galway-bypass/

Any idea what is most likely route ...Who makes final call is it the roads authority

Zzippy

youngrun wrote: »

Thought it was a Court decision rather than just red tape would be a lot harder to overturn?! http://ecofactireland.com/2013/04/11/european-court-of-justice-ruling-this-morning-for-the-controversial-galway-bypass/

Any idea what is most likely route ...Who makes final call is it the roads authority

A court decision under the Habitats Directive can be superseded by an IROPI application - the important thing is that all alternatives must be shown not to be feasible. IMO the green and blue/pink routes also impact on protected habitats, so could be deemed unfeasible if they want to go down that route. I'm not sure routes can be deemed unfeasible on economic or social grounds, so the red/orange/yellow routes may be harder to eliminate. And of course, the option of no new route and addressing public transport/smarter travel hasn't really been considered at all...

Apparently the council and ARUP will decide on preferred route, due to be announced next week, and may be an amalgamation of several routes.

what_traffic

About 30-40 minutes coverage on the show first thing this morning. Various people contributed.
Should be available for podcast tomorrow for those who are interested.

Old outer city bypass route not being considered due to alternatives

GBFM News
April 14, 2015


http://galwaybayfm.ie/old-outer-city-bypass-route-not-considered-due-alternatives/

antoobrien

what_traffic wrote: »

About 30-40 minutes coverage on the show first thing this morning. Various people contributed.
Should be available for podcast tomorrow for those who are interested.

Old outer city bypass route not being considered due to alternatives

GBFM News
April 14, 2015


http://galwaybayfm.ie/old-outer-city-bypass-route-not-considered-due-alternatives/

Some of us knew this 7 weeks ago. As was mentioned the GCC CEO Kevin Kelly was on the Keith Finnegan show. What was missed in the coverage of how the project staff came to a decision on why a road route appears to be necessary (public transport & smarter travel is not enough) was a discussion about the original GCOB route - starting at about 7 minutes in.

In a nutshell

• the original GCOB was included in the route selection process
• if it was to be used now the integration with the existing roads would be different
• the housing impact would be more severe than the original plan

Iwannahurl

A Galway Co Co senior engineer was on GBFM recently, and in the course of his interview said that "public transport has been ruled out" as a possible solution.

No evidence mentioned, never mind discussed. It's just a fact, somehow.

antoobrien

Iwannahurl wrote: »

A Galway Co Co senior engineer was on GBFM recently, and in the course of his interview said that "public transport has been ruled out" as a possible solution.

No evidence mentioned, never mind discussed. It's just a fact, somehow.

That would be the same interview and no he did not say that:

Kevin Kelly Galway Co. Co. Chief Executive, @6.20 wrote:

There is some commentary to kinda suggest well it's all about a road an nothing else has been considered. That isn't the case either, in looking at this as a project overall all of the other smarter travel or sustainable transport or public transport elements have been factored into the process at a very early stage in order to determine was a road required at all. And that analysis based on current information has suggested that even if all of those other elements were put in place you still need some form of a road based solution as part of the resolving of the overall situation

what_traffic

Iwannahurl wrote: »

A Galway Co Co senior engineer was on GBFM recently, and in the course of his interview said that "public transport has been ruled out" as a possible solution.

No evidence mentioned, never mind discussed. It's just a fact, somehow.

I believe it was Michael Timmins from the NRA? But one would expect somebody who works in a Road's Design Office to say that.

http://galwaybayfm.ie/keith-finnegan-show-tuesday-april-14th/
at 07.03m in.

what_traffic

antoobrien wrote: »

Some of us knew this 7 weeks ago.

I don't care what you know - I am just putting info into this thread about the coverage on the show.

antoobrien

what_traffic wrote: »

I don't care what you know - I am just putting info into this thread about the coverage on the show.

It's not just me, it's anybody who listened to all the - presumably including those that thanked the post attacking the content of - interview given 7 weeks ago would have known this.

what_traffic

antoobrien wrote: »

It's not just me, it's anybody who listened to all the - presumably including those that thanked the post attacking the content of - interview given 7 weeks ago would have known this.

Still don't care what you are talking about here.

gordongekko

Iwannahurl wrote: »

A Galway Co Co senior engineer was on GBFM recently, and in the course of his interview said that "public transport has been ruled out" as a possible solution.

No evidence mentioned, never mind discussed. It's just a fact, somehow.

what_traffic wrote: »

I believe it was Michael Timmins from the NRA? But one would expect somebody who works in a Road's Design Office to say that.

http://galwaybayfm.ie/keith-finnegan-show-tuesday-april-14th/
at 07.03m in.

It's a fact. What evidence do you require??

what_traffic

gordongekko wrote: »

It's a fact. What evidence do you require??

The actual evidence to back up this so called "fact". Number's , stat's on why it does not stack up etc. Basic's really.

antoobrien

what_traffic wrote: »

The actual evidence to back up this so called "fact". Number's , stat's on why it does not stack up etc. Basic's really.

Public Transport Feasibility Study of 2010, you know the one beloved of IWH that when you dig into it says that the combination of BRT + P&R will only take up to 15% of the traffic in 20 years.

what_traffic

gordongekko wrote: »

It's a fact. What evidence do you require??

Were exactly on

http://www.n6galwaycity.ie/

is the evidence?

Mrs OBumble

antoobrien wrote: »

Public Transport Feasibility Study of 2010, you know the one beloved of IWH that when you dig into it says that the combination of BRT + P&R will only take up to 15% of the traffic in 20 years.

Link?

Crumbs868

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Link?

Please?

Iwannahurl

gordongekko wrote: »

It's a fact. What evidence do you require??

Evidence of the "fact".

antoobrien wrote: »

Public Transport Feasibility Study of 2010, you know the one beloved of IWH that when you dig into it says that the combination of BRT + P&R will only take up to 15% of the traffic in 20 years.

That particular study sees a "bypass" as both an opportunity and a threat (Table 2.2 -- SWOT Analysis) which I'd be inclined to agree with.

Link: http://galway.ncpd.ie/tran-feasibility.pdf

A real bypass, removing traffic that is genuinely passing by the city en route to other places, would be an opportunity for public transport. However, that is contingent on a significant volume of bypassable traffic. It turns out that such traffic is only 5% of the total (ARUP's figure).

On the other hand, a euphemistic "bypass" -- really a ring-road for car commuters in Knocknacarra and environs as fervently desired by Galway City Council, Galway Chamber, various vested interests and a coterie of Boardsies -- would be a threat. The threat, though not explicitly stated, is obvious imo: increasing road capacity for car commuting would, to borrow a phrase from the study, "undermine the patronage" of bus services.

The PT Feasibility Study's "Do Minimum 2020" scenario assumes "the [completion of] the Galway Outer Bypass and the completion of the M6 and associated road links."

However, the overwhelming emphasis throughout the study is on the need for Travel Demand Management to constrain car use in the city in order to make public transport viable. Quotes cobbled together below:

The dispersed nature of settlement outside of Galway city, and the high level of traffic that is projected onto the city perimeters via the current construction of the M6 link from Ballinasloe is likely to have significant traffic impacts if left unchecked. It is therefore essential that a ‘Park and Ride’ or a ‘Park and Choose’ site is in place and balanced against demand management measures such as car parking restrictions in the Centre. Because such measures are considered by the study as being essential provisions, proposed locations are incorporated into proposed solutions and have been modelled accordingly.

The importance of an integrated approach to land use planning and transport provision has been reinforced by the baseline analysis carried out, ... A very high level of car use particularly for work journeys in the City and in the remainder of the study area was found.

The dispersed settlement patterns with often poor permeability offered for walking or cycling, together with a strong tendency to be segregated from key employment areas such as Ballybrit/Parkmore play a symbiotic role in reinforcing a culture of car dependency. This high level of car use is regarded as unsustainable, from economic, environmental, social and public health perspectives, and without further intervention cannot be reversed.

Substantial improvements to the road network in the study area are planned up to 2020 including an outer bypass, as are commitments to improving public transport, e.g. signal improvements, and introduction of Suburban Rail services on the western rail corridor. These investments, in the absence of the development of an integrated public transport system, supported by complimentary travel demand management and traffic management measures are likely to be insufficient to reverse unsustainable current travel patterns.

The assessment of proposed public transport options illustrated that public transport improvements are not sufficient on their own to curb the dominance of car and associated traffic impacts in Galway City.

Traffic related congestion and other delays each heavily impact on public transport provision in terms of efficiency, reliability, timetabling and future viability. The improved public transport service can only be delivered if there is a reallocation of road space to support public transport and cycling, and also if walking in both the City centre and suburbs is attractive and safe.

Removing commuter traffic from the city with a "bypass" would free up road space for Bus Rapid Transit etc, but would also remove the commuters needed to make BRT viable.

On the other hand, BRT in conjunction with a range of other measures would have the effect of removing cars from the city and removing commuters from their cars. Of course such an objective has not really been on the agenda for the past five years, or the previous twenty for that matter, and the paralysis in transport planning has ensured that development of public transport has been piecemeal at best.

The systemic weaknesses are well known, which is why the PT Feasibility Study says that the "formalisation of the relationships between key agencies is considered an imperative to the timely and efficient delivery and success of the Strategy." Five years on from the PTFS, and eight years after the Strategic Bus Study, numerous recommendations that were not bypass-dependent have still not been implemented.

As for "formalisation of the relationships between key agencies" we still have a City Council with Directorates that are incapable of coordinating themselves, never mind work effectively with other agencies, and we have two local authorities employing 900 staff based within 500 metres of each other in a small city and yet apparently pursuing incompatible agendas. It seems now they can't even agree on whether an "outer bypass" or a ring-road for car commuters is what's needed.

gordongekko

what_traffic wrote: »

The actual evidence to back up this so called "fact". Number's , stat's on why it does not stack up etc. Basic's really.

The actual evidence is available to be seen on the roads of Galway every day.

Iwannahurl

I posted this:

Iwannahurl wrote: »

A Galway Co Co senior engineer was on GBFM recently, and in the course of his interview said that "public transport has been ruled out" as a possible solution.

No evidence mentioned, never mind discussed. It's just a fact, somehow.

You replied:

gordongekko wrote: »

It's a fact. What evidence do you require??

I responded:

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Evidence of the "fact".

And now you say:

gordongekko wrote: »

The actual evidence is available to be seen on the roads of Galway every day.

So are you saying the evidence showing that public transport has been ruled out as a possible solution is available to be seen on the roads of Galway every day?

As clear as that, is it?

what_traffic

gordongekko wrote: »

The actual evidence is available to be seen on the roads of Galway every day.

Ha ha. I think this is the silliest statement I have seen in this thread.

gordongekko

What's silly is wanting public money wasted to find out that public transport is not going to solve the serious traffic issues around Galway.

Iwannahurl

gordongekko wrote: »

What's silly is wanting public money wasted to find out that public transport is not going to solve the serious traffic issues around Galway.

What is the evidence for that assertion?

Or is transport policy to be based on opinion only?

crusier

I think bikes and prams show be banned !

gordongekko

Iwannahurl wrote: »

What is the evidence for that assertion?

Or is transport policy to be based on opinion only?

It's based on nowhere worldwide being able to resolve this issue without a proper route network which Galway is sadly missing.

Iwannahurl

So no evidence about public transport in Galway then.

Mrs OBumble

gordongekko wrote: »

It's based on nowhere worldwide being able to resolve this issue without a proper route network which Galway is sadly missing.

So it's based on extensive international comparative studies then? And not so much available to be seen on the roads of Galway every day.

Wouldn't it be great if Galway could become a case study in how a complex traffic density / road-network inadequacy problem was resolved by public transport.

Maybe even in conjunction with an outer-bypass running Tuam - Cong - Clifden (because it's looking to me like that's the only acceptable place for a bypass to go, unless we do some mighty impressive bridge building).

Iwannahurl

Now that I think of it, the actual evidence may indeed be available to be seen on the roads of Galway every day, such as:

1. Actual evidence that Irish spatial "planning" has been a miserable failure
2. Actual evidence that public transport has been neglected for decades
3. Actual evidence that car dependence has not only been allowed to occur but has even been facilitated
4. Actual evidence that car culture appears to be out of control.

It would indeed be great if Galway could become a case study in how a small city's traffic problem was resolved by public transport and related measures. Perhaps Galway might not be able to make a major impression in the European context, but there is no real reason why the city could not be a leading light in Ireland. Wasn't that the general aim of the national competition for Smarter Travel Areas a few years ago?

As for mighty impressive bridge building, maybe we need something like the bridge across Lake Pontchartrain?

gordongekko

Iwannahurl wrote: »

So no evidence about public transport in Galway then.

Yes it's already been explained to you.

Iwannahurl

gordongekko wrote: »

Yes it's already been explained to you.

'Explanation' by repetition.

Carry on carrying on.

Mrs OBumble

gordongekko wrote: »

Yes it's already been explained to you.

Link, please.